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The Federation-class is a solid 50% tougher than the Miranda with shield and hull taken into consideration (137 vs 90) and assuming those numbers scale up linearly.
Given the fact that the Joyeuse took quite a beating after it's shields failed, hull strength which the Federation has in spades should definitely be taken into consideration when estimating durability.
The assumption that the K'tinga can nuke a Miranda is based on the Excalibur's ability to take out a D7 with one exchange and the fact that the K'tinga should be tailor made to counter the Excalibur and any successors using technology from a civilization that should still be better than ours.
The maneuverability gap between the K'tinga and Miranda (est. 90kt standard vs 134kt standard) will likely be greater than the Excalibur Vs D7 (90kt standard vs 120kt standard) and at a bare minimum the K'tinga should have comparable firepower given it's intended purpose so replicating the alpha strike the Joyeuse pulled off on the 2nd D7 from the quoted passage should be doable.
Even if one pass is not enough the Heavy Disruptor Beam that the K'tinga likely has positioned in it's rear will likely finish the job given the presumed maneuverability edge.
Any return fire if the Miranda survives the initial attack meanwhile is going to be quite anemic given the weaker phasers and torpedoes not to mention the lower coverage and maneuverability.
Meanwhile against a Federation class the K'tinga will be constantly eating just shy of 2/3 of a Miranda's alpha strike (32 multi-target vs 58 alpha) no matter where it is and if it messes up (the maneuverability gap between the Federation and Miranda isn't very big) will be eating around an Excalibur's max sustained damage or alpha strike.
If Shields and Hull don't scale up linearly and there are unknown multipliers to consider than things favor the Federation even more since as mentioned before the Federation is outputting nearly 2/3 of a Miranda's alpha strike (more than double the Miranda's multi-target) in any direction.
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So basically tng warp is just saying what ever relative safety warp you can use at the time is the warp you can use...I don't mean to sound annoyed but that is really really unhelpful for our purposes. We kinda need to know the exact how fast not the how fast our engineering think we can go..
50% extra durability, yes, but 50% of that is shield, and if a Miranda gets nuked by a K'Tinga then the Federation's shields will only survive a single alpha, after which it starts to take hull damage. And sure, hull damage isn't immediately fatal, but the Joyeuse almost immediately lost impulse engines, main power, and phasers. If third D7 hasn't foolishly flown directly into the triple launcher's line of fire the Joyeuse would've been catastrophic killed instead of just mission killed.
The Excalibur needs all five torpedoes and a good hit from phasers to kill a D7 in one exchange, and two torpedos and a phaser hit to kill a BoP. The Miranda is both heavier and better shielded than a D7, so it's unlikely that the Excalibur can actually kill a Miranda with one alpha strike.
The fact of the matter is that if the Miranda is completely overmatched by a K'Tinga, then the Excaliburs won't fare much better, and the Federation isn't going to have an easy time either. The Miranda is cheaper and less effective than either, sure, but it's not that much worse. And again, it's almost certainly going to be refit before the start of any major war.
Not every single ship we build is going to be able to beat an enemy capital ship. It's just not logistically possible, we don't have the materials and we don't design straight warships so pound for pound we're not as effective even as we're quickly catching up. Yes, even with the new prototype weapons we're still behind the Klingons, that's why they're prototypes and we're paying through the nose for them.
If the only ships we build are Excaliburs and Federations, we'll end up exactly back where we were last war wondering why do we have so few ships. There will be no one to escort the convoys, no one to service the colonies, and no one to build the starbases. We wouldn't even have enough ships to patrol our two neutral zones.
The Miranda is meant to furball: to be tough enough to take hits and blow away the swarming light ships, trade blows with the medium threats, and not duel capitals ships. That doesn't mean it's bad, It means it has a role. SanFran showing restraint and using standard tech leaves more of the budget free for us to blow it onblow and hookers those fancy weapons everyone desperately wants more of faster.
You should be happy: if command was smart they tell SanFran to redo the torpedoes for 2/1 of the Mark IVs for a total cost of only 85 and build only a token flight of 4 Federations for a fate like the Radiant's. It'd have 90% of our burst, still be as fast/faster then us, and still be half the cost.
If the only ships we build are Excaliburs and Federations, we'll end up exactly back where we were last war wondering why do we have so few ships. There will be no one to escort the convoys, no one to service the colonies, and no one to build the starbases. We wouldn't even have enough ships to patrol our two neutral zones.
The Miranda is meant to furball: to be tough enough to take hits and blow away the swarming light ships, trade blows with the medium threats, and not duel capitals ships. That doesn't mean it's bad, It means it has a role. SanFran showing restraint and using standard tech leaves more of the budget free for us to blow it on
You should be happy: if command was smart they tell SanFran to redo the torpedoes for 2/1 of the Mark IVs for a total cost of only 85 and build only a token flight of 4 Federations for a fate like the Radiant's. It'd have 90% of our burst, still be as fast/faster then us, and still be half the cost.
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It took 2 separate D7's unloading on it followed by one of those D7's firing again after the other died to nearly mission kill it, that is hardly a good example of ships almost immediately losing power after they start taking hull damage.
There's also the fact that the K'tinga matching an Excalibur firepower should be the bare minimum assumption since the Klingons should still out-tech us.
Given the size increase from the D7 to K'tinga as well as the new Heavy Disruptor Cannons it is very likely that the K'tinga is going to have a comparable jump in firepower compared to the D7 as the D7 was to the D6.
As for fighting a K'tinga, the Federation is around twice as tanky as an Excalibur and can output something like 60% of an Excalibur's max sustained damage in any direction while roughly matching it's max sustain and Alpha both in it's frontal and rear aspects whereas the Excalibur is limited to it's max sustain and alpha only from it's frontal aspect.
It wouldn't be a cake walk like an Excalibur Vs a single D7 but I think it should still be favored to win that fight.
I do think Starfleet needs to pump out a ton of Miranda's initially since they need to make up for all the losses they suffered from the 4 Year War but focusing solely on them is a terrible idea even after a weapon refit since it's still handicapped by it's tiny warp core and deflector.
Capping out at Warp 7 means that it has zero ability to run from a K'tinga or for a group of Mirandas to chase a marauding K'tinga down. It basically cedes all initiative to the Klingons on a local level and that will have negative impacts on the overall strategic outlook.
The fact that every in service Klingon ship could just sprint for a few hours to leave them in the dust and then transition back to cruise speed means that they're going to suffer (albeit to a lesser degree) the same troubles Starfleet faced during the last war.
That small warp core and deflector also means that it won't reap an many benefits from refits to those and their nacelles as much since the small size of their Warp Core keeps them permanently underpowered.
Like as a cheap but combat relevant ship for operating in the Federation's interior I think it's great but this thing has no place operating on the frontier unless it's got friends backing it up.
You're not wrong, which is why it's so nice you could build 3 Miranda-Ws and an Excailber for every two Federations. You'd probably break even or maybe even be ahead economically by not paying out of the nose for prototype phasers at all, having to refit so few phasers on the Excailbers, and only having two nacelles to replace on your flagships.
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darkstarling
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Tholian ships are definitely countered by full coverage of advanced phasers, that should hold off the weavers quite nicely.
Beware Queen Arachnia and her insidious schemes! We obviously need the pharmacology lab to counter her pheromonic warfare!
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Rouse the Army of Evil! Power the Death Ray!
Ah yes, build the ship that the QM has specifically said won't be built anymore.
After the initial tranche the Federation also gets some serious discounts.
Once the weapons are no longer experimental the Federation's Weapons costs drop by 14 plus another 25% discount for all the other components as they become mature instead of standard tech in 2260.
Since without Weapons the Federation is 99 cost that becomes 75 plus 56 (originally 70) in weapons for a total 131 cost (36 in total savings).
The Miranda meanwhile saves nowhere near as much since all it's weapons are matured technology. The weapons cost 30 total (7*3+2.25*4=30) so the rest of the ship costs 50 before the maturity discounts kick in which would drop it down to 38 cost for a total of 68 cost (12 in total savings or 1/3 of the Federation's savings).
So for 2 Federation's you're getting 4 Miranda's after you round up a bit. That's a fight I'm pretty sure favors the Federations.
If you refit them with the new weapons however the Miranda stops looking so cheap (but still pretty cheap). The new weapons (this assumes the Miranda can even fit 4 Type-4 Launchers) would cost 44 (7 phasers + 4 torps so 11*4=44) which combined with the other components puts it at 82 cost.
With refits for the Miranda I'd take 4 Miranda's in a fight against 2 Federations but for the cost of 2 Federations you'd only be able to field 3 refit Miranda's (not a comfortable fight for either) unless you really round things up not to mention that the Federation can just avoid the fight since the Miranda's are super slow in comparison.
You do realise that the white coloured writing on DITL is entirely their speculation/the authors headcanon, right? It can be well founded, like the c velocities of the various warp factors that never got elaborated on in the shows/technical manuals but unless it's yellow (screen canon), green (technical manuals, production notes and statements by producers) or cyan (novels like the Titan ones) it's all just their speculation.
darkstarling
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Wrong universe, that's the Terrans. Send out the call to Captain Proton!
...Doctor Chaotica as a Terran. Makes more sense than you'd think doesn't it.
I went over the simple change that'd make Federation 100% irreverent. The QM not playing 100% maximally in their SanFran builds is to our favor, because with the simple torpedo swap I proposed there'd be zero reason to ever build the ship we designed. There's no reason to build this ship at all over the as designed Miranda and Excalibur as it is, since the Excaliburs will be ~85 cost in 2260 and more than meet the demands of a patrol boat while most of the Mirandas take over for interior duties replacing the Newtons/Cygnus/Saladins. Command's reluctance is very oddly in our favor.
Also, 2260 favors the Miranda, as they will drop to 45% the cost of a Federation after the tech goes standard -> mature despite not get the same total discount. It's only with the prototype tax going away that the Federation will start closing, which might be as late as 2270.
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Onionjones
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Maybe we could have those alternative Mirandas show up as a subclass because now we are getting subclasses - might be interesting - but I doubt it would happen
The Joyeuse actually lost impulse power from the first hit after it lost shields:
To be fair this is after it was hit by a large piece of debris, but presumably it was the plasma loss that disabled impulse, and the debris hit the saucer.
Our ships do a bit better than Klingon ships without shields but it's still not pretty.
As for weapons and shields, we see that it takes about two alpha strikes from a D7 to down about half of an Excalibur's shields, so unless the K'Tinga is going to hit 3-4 times as hard the Miranda will be just fine.
That math doesn't works out since the tech discounts will only come after the initial batch, not to mention that in followup tranches the Federation gets way more discounts.
We saw that with the Excalibur where the Duratanium Hull despite being Standard in 2230 still had prototype costs even though the Excalibur launchers after that date in 2234.
Either way, none of this actually changes the math from that post you quoted since the Federation benefits even more from all the matured techs since they used way more of them.
Well the problem then is that the Miranda has half an Excalibur's alpha strike while having far worse maneuverability so it's ability to actually perform a full blown alpha strike on a K'tinga is way worse.
Even if the K'tinga fails to nuke it in one volley the return fire from the Miranda's is going to be even less effective than what those 3 D7s were able to do to the Excalibur so the outcome remains the same where the K'tinga trivially kills a Miranda or two.
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Onionjones
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It should be fine as long as we can build a lot of Mirandas (at least 2 for every K'tinga) and we probably should be able to
It just means if there is a war there will be lots of classic scenes of Mirandas blowing up
Quantity has a Quality of its own after all /s
because at some point because ships have such a long lead time so how many you can actually make is really the most important
as well as how fast ships can get produced, go on trials, and be commissioned
It just means if there is a war there will be lots of classic scenes of Mirandas blowing up
Quantity has a Quality of its own after all /s
because at some point because ships have such a long lead time so how many you can actually make is really the most important
as well as how fast ships can get produced, go on trials, and be commissioned
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It's not a real problem that our cheap general purpose cruiser cannot 1v1 an enemy capital ship. It would be insane if it could, and just as insane to require that of any ship that leaves our borders alone.
If that's your standard, then the Excaliburs need to be recalled because they're obviously in grave danger, and the Federations will need to be relegated to internal duties in probably twenty years or something.
The Miranda is fine.
The first batch is likely 2255? Any second order of Mirandas between 2260 - 2270 will have that advantage, making the Federation's second order even less favorable is my point. By 2270 the Federation will be that old ship everyone is complaining can't handle the K'tinga 2 and we need a 200 point ship that's able to trivially kill the K'tinga 3 or we'll be doomed.
If the K'tingas can trivially kill a Miranda(and so an Excalibur), we've already lost the war. The Federations aren't going to carry the day while they're busy using phaser shots on BoPs and the Mirandas have to deal with the D7s and BoPs. Your position of maximum unfavorability isn't winnable, so we should ask the QM for a torpedo swap on the Mirandas to improve our starting chances. : p
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I am all sorts of confused how does the Miranda get cheaper in the second batch it's running all mature so it price is basically set. It will not get any cheaper.
Also do remember if we pack this ship full of science or other things that will extend it's life considerably
Also do remember if we pack this ship full of science or other things that will extend it's life considerably
The biggest issue we had in the 4 Year War was that our cruisers couldn't handle any Klingon Capital ships.
Even D6 wasn't a favorable matchup for the majority of our ships.
Now the Miranda which is looking to be our main ship going forward is looking to have a horrible matchup against a K'tinga or B'rel.
While it may be able to 1v1 a D7 and deal with current gen BoP's those are on the way out as they are both very old designs since the D7 is a contemporary of the Excalibur while the BoP was a known factor all the way back in 2185 given that was used as the benchmark when we were designing the Selachii.
Now if we swapped out the weapons with the current prototype weapons it will be able to handle B'rel's but the K'tinga still wouldn't be a good matchup (a Miranda looks comparable to an Excalibur with the newer weapons instead of inferior) especially when post refit the K'tinga is still at worst only slightly more expensive at 95 cost.
Even assuming that the Federation's weapons don't become standard after the initial tranche, as I pointed out in my earlier post the non-weapon costs drop down to 75 so the total cost ends up at 145.
That leads to 2 Federation's at 290 for 4 Miranda's at 272 but I'd certainly take 2 Federation's over 4 Miranda's in a fight.
The Miranda is in no way a peer to an Excalibur in a fight. The Excalibur has an even bigger maneuverability advantage over the Miranda than it did against the D7 and it could 1v2 those things and 1v3 them with a good crew, the Miranda's only advantage is durability but all those other factors just means that the durability will drag the fight out a bit longer.
The Type-3 Thrusters, Duratanium Alloy Hull, and Covariant Shields all transition from Standard to Mature tech in 2260 so they get a 25% discount. This also affects the Federation-class's price a lot since more of those things were invested into the Federation.
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I know I sound like I'm doomposting about the Miranda but I am mainly critical of the idea that Starfleet should just build them over building a mix of them and Federations.
As a replacement for the Newton it's fine but the Newton's role as fleet anchor isn't one that it should have been given in the first place and the Miranda is essentially a bigger Newton with actual phaser coverage.
Because of that Miranda tactically isn't really suitable for anything besides big fleet battles where their shear cheapness means that they can just overwhelm stuff.
In the environment that Starfleet is currently in and will be in for the near future where there aren't any major wars but plenty of hostile neighbors with violent solo encounters the Miranda just isn't a good choice for frontier work due to how much the Miranda sacrifices to be cheap.
Even for hunting BoP raiders you run into the issue of the BoP's being able to just sprint for a little while before transitioning back to cruise once they get far enough away since it's stuck at Warp 7 at most.
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It's running standard tech. It's going to get hull, shield, engine discounts when those move to mature. The larger bulk of the Federation's costs are in prototypes that aren't going to get a discount in the 2260 step, so while the Miranda will get a smaller total discount its actual price advantage will increase slightly even though both are cheaper.
I'd bet on the 4 Miranda for a pyrrhic victory. The ship class has to do will for tech timelines to be pushed as well. : p
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The Miranda has less than 20kt more maneuverability than the Federation so the Federation's just need to focus solely on avoiding the Miranda's torpedoes since they out damage even 4 Miranda's in terms of multi-target damage (32*2=64 vs 14*4=56) and can whittle them all to death.
The Miranda's can't fight super aggressively either since a Federation's alpha strike would likely cripple or badly damage one and the Federation's alpha strike is the same for both the front and rear, not to mention that the Federation has no issues taking a Miranda's alpha strike to the chin.
The situation becomes the exact opposite if it's 2 Federation's vs 3 Refit Miranda's since now the multi-target damage favors the Miranda's so it comes down the the Federation's desperately trying to alpha down a Miranda so that it becomes a 2v2.