Starfleet Design Bureau

Please, let's NOT start thinking about under-arming our combat ship.

So basically I want to get dual engines, but I'm not sure I can prevent people trying to buy 4 RFL like was being discussed in the Christmas break.
Ugh

I'm aiming for 5 forward torpedoes and a pair aft, then about 5-6 phasers (so 1 more aft torp than an Excalibur and 2-3 more phasers).

If we limit the torpedoes to a RFL forward and 2 standards aft we can shave around 5 cost and hope our punchier phasers pick up some of the slack. Math on that might make the cuts too deep though.
 
That said, the usefulness of the high-cost and high-performance Excalibur-class could not be overstated. The war had thoroughly discredited a once-popular viewpoint that the future was to be found in light cruisers which could be inexpensively built to carry out the myriad of duties needed in the ever-expanding Federation and then consolidated in the event of warfare. While there was still a place for specialist vessels, military theory in the coming years would be more focused on how to deal with the long-range deployments and individual engagements necessitated by deep interstellar warfare.
To quote the GM again, while we are being asked on the drawing board to make a 'fleet anchor', the political-strategic situation leads to no Big Fleet Battles occurring that need Fleet Anchors. Individual ships engaging the enemy on their own is the future reality the Federation-class will be born into.

If we're outnumbered, so much the worse.
Therefore in a 1v1 (or even a terribly rude and unfair 1v3 fight!), it is necessary to be able to bring your opponent into the frontal arc and end the fight with a decisive torpedo strike.
The Federation-class cannot rely on having an Excali-buddy scratching her back for her in the big teamfights that aren't happening. (Also, half the Excaliburs are dead!)

The magnitude we are outnumbered by absolutely matters.
There is no reality in which skimping on the Federation-class' impulse engines will conjure up a second Federation-class in the same place at the same time to even up an unfair gang-up fight against her. That additional ship would be elsewhere far way doing another high-priority mission.
 
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[X] Central Engine [Cost: 91] (Maneuverability: Normal) [120% Standard]

We were told to build a beam boat. This is the beam boat option. Simple as.
Respectfully?
This is not true; we were not asked to build a beam boat
Citation:
The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.

We were asked to build a big, tanky, capable boat that can anchor a task force or help with a line of battle
 
To quote the GM again, while we are being asked on the drawing board to make a 'fleet anchor', the political-strategic situation leads to no Big Fleet Battles occurring that need Fleet Anchors. Individual ships engaging the enemy on their own is the future reality the Federation-class will be born into.


Therefore in a 1v1 (or even a terribly rude and unfair 1v3 fight!), it is necessary to be able to bring your opponent into the frontal arc and end the fight with a decisive torpedo strike.
The Federation-class cannot rely on having an Excali-buddy scratching her back for her in the big teamfights that aren't happening. (Also, half the Excaliburs are dead!)


There is no reality in which skimping on the Federation-class' impulse engines will conjure up a second Federation-class in the same place at the same time to even up an unfair gang-up fight against her. That additional ship would be elsewhere far way doing another high-priority mission.
Indeed. As I said before, Klingons and Romulans fight like rat bastards.
 
It has been repeated that the primary cap on Starfleet size is strategic material supply not cost
And Starfeet told us that the doctrine of cheap light cruisers was comprehensively discredited by the loss patterns during the War we just fought

The update warned against taking maximum size options for no reason other than size
To my recollection, there has been nothing about costs mentioned in this project, just that the capabiity be commensurate
Yeah, while it makes zero sense that the primary cap on Starfleet's size would be strategic material supply (that's not how supply and demand works, nor resource extraction in all but the most exotic, rare, unable-to-be-produced materials), if that IS the case, then cost is not really a meaningful design consideration.

Like, cost is a measure of how difficult it is to get more of something. If you have a finite supply that cannot be increased, then cost will not be the deciding factor on whether Starfleet approves a ship design or not; mass is. But it's not. There's no request for a ship design that minimizes use of strategic materials while still being cost-effective. It's the arbitrary number of ships.
 
Therefore in a 1v1 (or even a terribly rude and unfair 1v3 fight!), it is necessary to be able to bring your opponent into the frontal arc and end the fight with a decisive torpedo strike.
False. Anything big enough to survive enough rounds that the Federation hasn't pulped them with its heavy phasers before they manage to scratch the 75 shields the Federation is carrying is going to be big and slow enough 120% thrust will still be enough to bring tubes to bear.
 
It has been repeated that the primary cap on Starfleet size is strategic material supply not cost

Again, we saw the Joyeuse kill at least one Bird of Prey with torpedoes
And we see BoPs tank multiple torps; they require more than one hit to kill IIRC

Phasers take much longer time to kill ships
Thats why they are a backup weapon in the current meta; maybe with the next generation of phasers they will get more effective

The primary cap is strategic material supply, not money. Which isn't quite the same thing. Cost is fundamentally a representation of resource expenditure, it's just the Federation runs on a different (better) style of economics for military procurement than other powers.

And yes, the Joyeuse killed a Bird-of-Prey with torpedoes, because the Bird-of-Prey flew in front of it. I'm not sure I'd entirely agree with the idea that phasers are a backup weapon, but they do become more relevant the larger the ship and the less able it is to dogfight (and less relevant as it gets smaller).

Under the current system the Excalibur basically flies like a 90kt light cruiser, which is more than enough to maneuver equally and/or better than the D7, but not well enough to stick on the rear of a Klingon Bird-of-Prey. While I'm not keen to draw up actual statblocks for enemy ships, it is starting to feel like it's necessary on a basic level. And to be fair while before I kind of cringed at the idea as being impossible, as my health improves it doesn't actually feel quite that way any more, so maybe we can get some sort of warbook detailing the basic armaments/maneuverability/masses of primary enemy ships.
 
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It has been repeated that the primary cap on Starfleet size is strategic material supply not cost
And Starfeet told us that the doctrine of cheap light cruisers was comprehensively discredited by the loss patterns during the War we just fought

The update warned against taking maximum size options for no reason other than size
To my recollection, there has been nothing about costs mentioned in this project, just that the capabiity be commensurate
8 points for Maximum Maneuver certainly is
The update warned us against taking maximum size purely for the sake of it because Starfleet cares about cost. Starfleet is not asking us to design a cheap ship, but that was never in the cards. Starfleet just also doesn't want unnecessary expenses, because they need more ships.

I reiterate: If the Federation's only limiting factor was dilithium, they'd just ask us to build the biggest fuckoff ship a single Warp core could support, because that'd be the only viable design.

Again, we saw the Joyeuse kill at least one Bird of Prey with torpedoes
And we see BoPs tank multiple torps; they require more than one hit to kill IIRC

Phasers take much longer time to kill ships
Thats why they are a backup weapon in the current meta; maybe with the next generation of phasers they will get more effective
Yes. It is possible to kill BoP with torpedoes. It's just not as useful because they're harder to hit. Especially with a ship this massive, even with maximum maneuverability.

EDIT: ninja'd
 
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You will have more options than just rapid-launchers. Probably 2 standard, 2 rapids, or 2 prototypes.
Thank you. The fact that it only goes to two helps a lot.
Also... oooh. Prototypes. I would absolutely prefer firing less torpedoes but with shield bleed through. Thanks for the info.

[X] Dual Engines [Cost: 99] (Maneuverability: Maximum) [200% Standard]
 
False. Anything big enough to survive enough rounds that the Federation hasn't pulped them with its heavy phasers before they manage to scratch the 75 shields the Federation is carrying is going to be big and slow enough 120% thrust will still be enough to bring tubes to bear.
Having your strategy be blocking the other guy's punch with your face has never been desirable over preventing damage entirely.
 
Yeah, while it makes zero sense that the primary cap on Starfleet's size would be strategic material supply (that's not how supply and demand works, nor resource extraction in all but the most exotic, rare, unable-to-be-produced materials), if that IS the case, then cost is not really a meaningful design consideration.

Like, cost is a measure of how difficult it is to get more of something. If you have a finite supply that cannot be increased, then cost will not be the deciding factor on whether Starfleet approves a ship design or not; mass is. But it's not. There's no request for a ship design that minimizes use of strategic materials while still being cost-effective. It's the arbitrary number of ships.
This
Ive seen a lot of good-faith arguments based on cost justifications that do not exist for this ship

The option for people who wanted to pinch pennies was to vote for the Miranda Project
Thats the cheaper option. But we didnt vote for that, we voted for the heavy cruiser . This is not an argument for goldplating, but shedding significant capabiity for a minimum cost saving doesnt make sense

I am finding it a little frustrating to have this ship's primary roe gimped for the equivalent of saving five cents on the dollar

False. Anything big enough to survive enough rounds that the Federation hasn't pulped them with its heavy phasers before they manage to scratch the 75 shields the Federation is carrying is going to be big and slow enough 120% thrust will still be enough to bring tubes to bear.
This entire argument is based on the assumption that NPC ships are subject to the same technological rules and limitations that we are in designing or building their ships
Or that their designers will make the same tradeoffs we do

I humbly submit that this is not true
 
False. Anything big enough to survive enough rounds that the Federation hasn't pulped them with its heavy phasers before they manage to scratch the 75 shields the Federation is carrying is going to be big and slow enough 120% thrust will still be enough to bring tubes to bear.
I fail to see your logic here.

The Excalibur changed space warfare forever. Future enemy warships will be hot-rodded if their builders are capable of slapping on more/newer models of Impulse Engines. They will prove to be elusive targets for a less-than-maximum maneuverability vessel of our own.

The 'fair fight' scenario of 1v3 needs to be resolved by rapidly turning the fight into a 1v2, by deleting one of the aggressors with the forward photorps. And that's before we address the ability of the Federation's helms-being to make the big beautiful fat lady dance around some of what would be sure shots against a slower ship. Survivability Onion, Don't Get Hit.

Falling behind on the extremely effective tactical trend that we ourselves started would be highly illogical...
If y'all wanted to save on costs, the quad vs dual nacelle setup vote was where that should've been done. Please, for the love of the Mirror Universe who will want to steal the blueprints for this thing so badly, don't turn into San Francisco on us at the last minute!
 
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False. Anything big enough to survive enough rounds that the Federation hasn't pulped them with its heavy phasers before they manage to scratch the 75 shields the Federation is carrying is going to be big and slow enough 120% thrust will still be enough to bring tubes to bear.
I mean unless they decide to build something more maneuverable themselves? Making a ship with a similar design concept as the Federation wouldn't be unreasonable for the Klingons or Romulans who know how the Four Year War went. The Tholians and Cardassians also probably aren't entirely ignorant. I don't think we should compromise on the firepower and maneuverability, it's better to be capable of engaging both smaller and peer ships well.

I think if we have to compromise on one it would be better to compromise maneuverability, but at this point the marginal cost of having a high power ship in both roles isn't high. I would resist weakening the torpedo armament- we need something that can answer a theoretical opponent heavy warship head to head, even if on less than equal terms.
 
To quote the GM again, while we are being asked on the drawing board to make a 'fleet anchor', the political-strategic situation leads to no Big Fleet Battles occurring that need Fleet Anchors. Individual ships engaging the enemy on their own is the future reality the Federation-class will be born into.

And small task forces. When we picked the large ship, we picked building the linchpin design.

The second proposal is for the other end of the scale. Project Federation envisions a cruiser more along the lines of the Kea-class, using a higher mass than other contemporary starships to produce powerful defense fields and a depth of capability in vital areas of interest. This idea of a line cruiser would then be able to weather any conflict it takes part in, acting as a lynchpin for a small task force or the main force of battle in a larger engagement.

The Newtons were forced to rely on the Kea's wide-angle coverage to assist against the Birds-of-Prey, whose attack runs on the slower ships meant focusing fire was nearly impossible.

The remainder of Starfleet was not to be discounted, either. In addition to the Newton-class which had become the main line cruiser of the war, seven Kea-class science cruisers were in position for the task of anchoring the line with their durable shields and ability to engage enemies on any approach path.

More pertinently in strategic terms, however, the Newton's size and quality tactical systems made it the cruiser that made up the 'bulk' of fleet deployments during the war. Their ability to provide a stable firing position while other fleet elements maneuvered around or through their formations represent a key element of Federation fleet doctrine.

We picked the larger ship. They intend to deploy it in small task forces or fleets. They want it to replace the Kea's or Newton's battle-role, which was not to use maximum thrust and let the Excailbers and likely the upcoming Mirandas use the Federation's stable position and coverage to keep flocks of small ships off of their rear.
 
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Normal manuervability isn't gimping it. Stop pretending it is.

Like we are contemplating a non torp boat and it'd be great if we'd actually do that instead of maxing on torp+manueverability. You can misquote to your hearts content, but I'd rather we not.

I fail to see your logic here.

The Excalibur changed space warfare forever. Future enemy warships will be hot-rodded if their builders are capable of slapping on more/newer models of Impulse Engines. They will prove to be elusive targets for a less-than-maximum maneuverability vessel of our own.

But as Wootius points out that's not the role. This is an anchor. They trade maneuverability for firepower and stability. Also: more than likely it won't change the fact that heavier ships will not be spinning in space.

These are all ad hoc explanations for max speed, and we simply don't need it.
 
We picked the larger ship. They intend to deploy it it small task forces or fleets. They want it to replace the Kea's or Newton's battle-role, which was not to use maximum thrust and let the Excailbers and likely the upcoming Mirandas use the Federation's stable position and coverage to keep flocks of small ships off of their rear.
But building a line anchor means building a ship with broad phaser mounts and good torpedo firepower, at which point we are expensive and adding on high engine power is not a major marginal cost for considerable gain. It won't make them a better anchor, but it will make them better when they are called on outside that role, which they inevitably will be due to Starfleet's relatively small size compared to its territory.

Basically we can't build battleships and torpedo boats. Starfleet has to be a fleet of cruisers of various sizes, because it has to patrol an enormous volume and execute all sorts of noncombat roles. Specializing to a degree is fine, but we can't specialize too much or we won't have the hulls to fall back on for other roles.
 
I want to reiterate - this is a war ship. That is its primary purpose, to be good at war. That means we need to spend the resources to make it good at fighting.

Normal manuervability isn't gimping it. Stop pretending it is.

Like we are contemplating a non torp boat and it'd be great if we'd actually do that instead of maxing on torp+manueverability. You can misquote to your hearts content, but I'd rather we not.



But as Wootius points out that's not the role. This is an anchor. They trade maneuverability for firepower and stability. Also: more than likely it won't change the fact that heavier ships will not be spinning in space.

These are all ad hoc explanations for max speed, and we simply don't need it.
It's penny pinching and giving us a massive hit to our capacity to engage 1v1 at sublight speeds, which we have been told is what's going to be happening. Ships for fighting are the costliest thing in the game system, but that's just a reality we'll have to live with.

Maneuver doesn't matter for its specific role in fleet actions. But it does matter the rest of the time. When it happens you REALLY WANT IT, but we've already made most of the decisions to make this a fleet anchor. Basically you're setting us up for more climactic big battles rather than overall strategic strength.
 
[X] Central Engine [Cost: 91] (Maneuverability: Normal) [120% Standard]

the dual engines would be needed if we wanted this to do solo combat missions, but with us not taking the sprint warp engines, we have basically decided that that is not a capability we are focusing on.

so as a fleet lynchpin that mainly stays in the center of a formation, it does not need max maneuverability.
 
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[X] Central Engine [Cost: 91] (Maneuverability: Normal) [120% Standard]

the dual engines would be needed if we wanted this to do solo combat missions, but with us not taking the sprint warp engines, we have basically decided that that is not a capability we are focusing on.

so as a fleet lynchpin that mainly stays in the center of a formation, it does not need max maneuverability.
The Fed isn't exactly slow at a sprint. It's not as fast as it would have been, but it's still got pretty good sprint speed and can actually go long distances faster.
 
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