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- Location
- America
[X] Quad Nacelles (Maximum Cruise: Warp 7 -> 7.4) (Mass: 220kt -> 300kt) [Cost: 79]
the extra mass adds more shield and more phaser power. It also allows it to respond to emergencies faster at the cost of being slightly less able to disengage from a fight.
But then again, this is the Federation-class ship of the line. She's not supposed to float like a butterfly.
She's the ship that "OH LAWD SHE COMIN" after politely requesting that the Klingons kindly don't "make us come over there".
the extra mass adds more shield and more phaser power. It also allows it to respond to emergencies faster at the cost of being slightly less able to disengage from a fight.
But then again, this is the Federation-class ship of the line. She's not supposed to float like a butterfly.
She's the ship that "OH LAWD SHE COMIN" after politely requesting that the Klingons kindly don't "make us come over there".
- Location
- Texas
[X] Quad Nacelles (Maximum Cruise: Warp 7 -> 7.4) (Mass: 220kt -> 300kt) [Cost: 79]
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
- Location
- Texas
While Quads are still my first choice, I don't really get the demand for more improved efficient cruise. It feels like people are penny pinching with antimatter efficiency over tactical capabilities offered by sprint speed. Especially since the next-gen Nacelles are probably gonna boost that efficiency anyways.
- Location
- Canada
If its gonna boost that, then having a ship with quads be upgraded will boost that also. If that makes sense.
darkstarling
Brilliantly Crazed
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Very well put. The Excalibur wins by only picking fights it can win. The Federation wins by showing up ready to win any fight.
If that's true, they'd still have the same speed as the refit Federation, assuming an Efficient Cruise nacelle arrangement.
Unless the point is to allow the Federation to skip refits on its nacelles? Because in that case, I'm very prepared to argue the Federation is better placed to pay those refit costs later than hull costs now.
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Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
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They don't cancel each other out, and two boosts to efficient cruise are better than one. The ship is going to spend most of its career at efficient cruise, so we might as well make that as good as we can.
- Location
- America
Greater efficient cruise will probably be what we want for our next explorer, which is going to be doing the 5 year voyages and far far away from refuel and resupply.
darkstarling
Brilliantly Crazed
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And coming faster than you think. This is a ship for taking and defending strategic objectives. Planets and stations don't tun away, fleets defending planets and stations can't run away. So the Federation Class shows up wherever is most threatening in record time and then says 'do something about it, I dare you.'
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
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Well, in that case the Fed would be travelling with a fleet; engaging a fleet or a station isn't a one-ship job unless you outclass them technologically by a hilarious degree. And there's basically no way the other ships would be packing the same monstrous four-nacelle system; it would be limited to the cruise speed of the others.
The quad configuration is most useful in peacetime* emergency response, when the Fed can't count on having backup available or slowing it down.
*Relatively speaking. Anything that doesn't require a fleet response, anyway.
Here's something for people crying about costs being why we "shouldn't bother with quads."
Max Cruise is the point that we can still go fast without our warp nacelles crying out for mercy. Compared to the costs of a second set of nacelles for a Linear Quad, even Sprint configuration would rack up a second set of nacelles in repair costs over the ship's operational lifetime. To say nothing about Cruise configuration's at least one and a half extra, if not double over it's life time. Each time we go faster than max cruise we damage our nacelles. Sprint config would reduce overall damage per warp speed, by having a higher maximum overall speed we can go, total. But Efficient Max Cruise, each time we need to go faster would just rack up damage, that'll take not just resources to replace, but time in dry dock by the time we'd limp back to one. Sprint we'd might just be able to address out in the wild.
Compare that to a one time purchase of a second set of nacelles, and a higher max cruise. Then we can go above warp seven without damaging our nacelles, even if we'd only ever be able to approach Warp 8 as a top speed if we really needed to go even faster. And much less time spent having to repair the things, either out in space, or time spent in a dry dock. Meaning more time getting shit done.
Max Cruise is the point that we can still go fast without our warp nacelles crying out for mercy. Compared to the costs of a second set of nacelles for a Linear Quad, even Sprint configuration would rack up a second set of nacelles in repair costs over the ship's operational lifetime. To say nothing about Cruise configuration's at least one and a half extra, if not double over it's life time. Each time we go faster than max cruise we damage our nacelles. Sprint config would reduce overall damage per warp speed, by having a higher maximum overall speed we can go, total. But Efficient Max Cruise, each time we need to go faster would just rack up damage, that'll take not just resources to replace, but time in dry dock by the time we'd limp back to one. Sprint we'd might just be able to address out in the wild.
Compare that to a one time purchase of a second set of nacelles, and a higher max cruise. Then we can go above warp seven without damaging our nacelles, even if we'd only ever be able to approach Warp 8 as a top speed if we really needed to go even faster. And much less time spent having to repair the things, either out in space, or time spent in a dry dock. Meaning more time getting shit done.
Neat. I just ran an exponential curve with a decay constant based on the fractional warp factors between maximum cruise and maximum warp. It's interesting that you came to relatively similar numbers (+- 100 hours) by a different method. Although my calculator won't spit out specific endurance times at specific warp factors without an extra step, only at .1 increments.
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[X] Quad Nacelles (Maximum Cruise: Warp 7 -> 7.4) (Mass: 220kt -> 300kt) [Cost: 79]
Time to show San Fran how to do nacelle cycling!
Time to show San Fran how to do nacelle cycling!
Oh thats simple one type two engine giving her low maneuverability jk but not much. We can just take maximum tactical and go for most synergy in modules later to make her worthwhile.
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[X] Cruise Nacelles (Efficient Cruise: Warp 6.8 -> 7) (Mass: 220kt -> 260kt) [Cost: 67]
High Sprint is almost always the best choice, because its the speed that matters in combat, and the vast majority of Starfleet vessels are expected to be combat ships, and to be thrown into combat situations
It is a very important component of your tactical score as well as your abiity to do shit like outrun space wedgies
As other people have pointed out, one of the reasons that the Excalibur is Tactical S and the reigning cruiserweight champion of the local neighborhood is because its simply the fastest thing in a fight in this part of the Alpha Quadrant, which allows it to choose who to fight and when to do so
One, its not a gimmick
We used this setup for Starfleet's then showpiece class, and then San Fran used it for the Radiant, which was too small and underarmed to benefit properly
Two
The Sagarmarthas were built in 2175-2190, and decommissioned in 2245 at the end of the Klingon War
Thats seventy years of service, and we havent used that setup since on any new ships because it wasnt necessary
Three
More chonk = more powerful shields and more powerful phasers
A quad nacelle Federation is going to be around 15% heavier than a twin nacelle Fedration, and thus that much tougher to kill
One
The Klingons have better warptech than us. The current Klingon D7 battlecruiser designs are Warp 8 ships iirc, and you can be sure that whatever cruisers the Klingons begin to manufacture in response to the War, as well as their nextgen BoPs, will be Warp 8 ships as well or better. Nor do we have any idea what the Romulans, Tholians and other nationstates are building now
So thats an inaccurate assumption
Two
Sprint is a major component of a ship's Tactical score
One
The Federation class is being rolled out in the 2250s.
All the slowest and oldest combat ships still in Starfleet will be retired by 2255, with the surviving Saladins gone in 2271.
and the last Newtons gone by 2282.
Only the Keas see the 2290s, and those get refits to get faster in the seventies
The bulk of our combat numbers will be Mirandas, Federations and Excaliburs, all native Warp 8 ships
So no, thats a mistaken assumption
Two
As we just had it demonstrated to us and the Starfleet Admiralty in the bloody disasters that were the beginning of the Klingon War? If you fail to design for wartime conditions, you will get fucked when people who actually designed their ships for war show up and begin to throw hands.
Starfleet is not a civilian service.
Efficient travel is less of a concern compared to timely travel, especially after the investments we've made in logistics infrastructure to make refuelling less of a factor
If its not a non-combat specialist like an Archer, justifying a lower top speed is very difficult
And in the current meta, even non-combat specialists cant ignore tactical speed
See how the Attenborough got good top speed to give it the option to fight or run away, and it was a science ship
One
That depends on the size and condition of the station and the fleet in question
A 3-4 ship task force of Federations and Excaliburs would murder a squadron of raiding currentgen Birds of Prey, for example, and would maintain that Warp 7 cruise all the way
Furthermore, the Mirandas are a Warp 8 design.
You can expect them to have around the same Warp 7 maximum cruise that the Attenboroughs did
And thats before the Fleet Refits in the 2270s break the max cruise cap for other ships
Two
We just came out of a war that says different. Where wartime emergency speed was the only reason we were able to assemble enough heavy metal to win the Battle of Andoria. Where the strategic speed of the Callies is the ony reason they were able to raid Klingon logistics and still get back into UFS space in time to defend against attacks
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- Location
- Canada
[X] Quad Nacelles (Maximum Cruise: Warp 7 -> 7.4) (Mass: 220kt -> 300kt) [Cost: 79]
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[X] Cruise Nacelles (Efficient Cruise: Warp 6.8 -> 7) (Mass: 220kt -> 260kt) [Cost: 67]
- Location
- Australia
Sprint is for skirmishing, Max Cruise is for defence or attack of a specific point.
If you are fighting in deep space, you want Sprint for engagement and disengagement on your own terms. That's why Excaliburs were so good at hunting down supply ships.
But this dude doesn't exist for that. This guy is for being indestructible, and getting to places that need something indestructible fast. Hence Max Cruise.
Explicitly, max cruise doesn't damage the ship. It just costs more to run. With this ship design, I value the ability to get somewhere fast more than I do our general economy. 20% faster is a lot faster on the scale of days.
If this was a pure peace ship then efficient cruise would be better. It's not.
If you are fighting in deep space, you want Sprint for engagement and disengagement on your own terms. That's why Excaliburs were so good at hunting down supply ships.
But this dude doesn't exist for that. This guy is for being indestructible, and getting to places that need something indestructible fast. Hence Max Cruise.
Explicitly, max cruise doesn't damage the ship. It just costs more to run. With this ship design, I value the ability to get somewhere fast more than I do our general economy. 20% faster is a lot faster on the scale of days.
If this was a pure peace ship then efficient cruise would be better. It's not.
darkstarling
Brilliantly Crazed
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The Excalibur came in clutch at Andoria. No one will ever deny that. But we're building the ship we WANTED to have ready for Andoria, the ones who could have gotten there with time to spare and held the line. Because while Excaliburs were the best ships we had, and they got the job done, being the unstoppable force and immovable object on a vital strategic objective is very much not playing to their strengths. They're just good enough that they won anyway.
Strategic response speed is what allowed the fleet to assemble at Andoria
Not just the Callies, though they played a major role, but also the five hundred kiloton explorers from Vulcan's fleet, only four of which were able to make it.
If the Vulcan ships had better max cruise, we might have been able to assemble all seven of them, and our losses in that fight would have been substantially less in both ships and civilians. Conversely, if the Klingons had better max cruise, they could have gotten to Andoria before we could concentrate enough force, and we would have lost the planet and possibly the war
This was a lesson that was re-learned in blood, first time being against the Romulans and their Warp Five warbirds:
When you're building or running a military force, strategic speed >>> efficient speed with regards to maintaining operational tempo and wrecking the enemy before they can respond effectively.
Military operations do not happen at the speeds that minimize fuel use, they happen at the fastest speed logistically possible
Because time is a resource that cant be replenished, unlike antimatter
- Location
- United States
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[X] Cruise Nacelles (Efficient Cruise: Warp 6.8 -> 7) (Mass: 220kt -> 260kt) [Cost: 67]
[X] Quad Nacelles (Maximum Cruise: Warp 7 -> 7.4) (Mass: 220kt -> 300kt) [Cost: 79]
[X] Quad Nacelles (Maximum Cruise: Warp 7 -> 7.4) (Mass: 220kt -> 300kt) [Cost: 79]