Starfleet Design Bureau

The term "gunboat diplomacy" was literally invented to describe European (and later American) imperialism. In the interest of not derailing the thread, all I'll say is: It's not a term that a 23rd-century utopia would look kindly on, and it doesn't accurately describe the Federation's diplomatic mission. It shouldn't be a design goal.
 
I just realised this takes place before the Federation Klingon War, well, No Borg for now.
 
Whilst it doesn't really engage in gunboat diplomacy the Federation of Kirk's era is clearly in favour of interventionism when it comes to keeping the Klingons and their influence out of third parties (and bringing said parties over to its side).
 
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The term "gunboat diplomacy" was literally invented to describe European (and later American) imperialism. In the interest of not derailing the thread, all I'll say is: It's not a term that a 23rd-century utopia would look kindly on, and it doesn't accurately describe the Federation's diplomatic mission. It shouldn't be a design goal.
The meaning of words can quickly change especially through the centuries.
 
The term "gunboat diplomacy" was literally invented to describe European (and later American) imperialism. In the interest of not derailing the thread, all I'll say is: It's not a term that a 23rd-century utopia would look kindly on, and it doesn't accurately describe the Federation's diplomatic mission. It shouldn't be a design goal.
Maybe a diplomatic ship isn't explicitly designed to conduct gunboat diplomacy, but there's no reason to avoid heavily arming a diplomatic ship, given how things are at the moment. Over potential member-states, a visible symbol of the dangers of the galaxy and a practical contribution to a potential defense of the world. When visiting our peers, a reminder that for all we enjoy peace, our vessels are modern, lethal combatants (please forget about the early 23rd century).
 
Maybe a diplomatic ship isn't explicitly designed to conduct gunboat diplomacy, but there's no reason to avoid heavily arming a diplomatic ship, given how things are at the moment. Over potential member-states, a visible symbol of the dangers of the galaxy and a practical contribution to a potential defense of the world. When visiting our peers, a reminder that for all we enjoy peace, our vessels are modern, lethal combatants (please forget about the early 23rd century).
Sure, but that's not what the term "gunboat diplomacy" means.
 
The term "gunboat diplomacy" was literally invented to describe European (and later American) imperialism. In the interest of not derailing the thread, all I'll say is: It's not a term that a 23rd-century utopia would look kindly on, and it doesn't accurately describe the Federation's diplomatic mission. It shouldn't be a design goal.
Sure, but that's not what the term "gunboat diplomacy" means.
Gunboat diplomacy is the pursuit of diplomatic objectives (usually but not always foreign policy) via displays of naval power to imply a threat of war or war actions if demands are not met. There's no reason whatsoever it should be confined to 18th-20th century European/American actions, because it wasn't confined to them once other nations saw its effectiveness and started copying it. Hell, if we're glossing over the most trivial of semantics, gunboat diplomacy was being performed by nations long before the term was coined.

I don't really care if the Federation would object to the term, they've done gunboat diplomacy more than once in canon.

As for design goals, it's literally impossible to build an armed interstellar ship that can't do gunboat diplomacy if desired. A demonstration of the principle that finding technology that does what you want is easy, finding technology that does only what you want is very hard.
 
Sure, but that's not what the term "gunboat diplomacy" means.
Better hope that our diplomats can sell water to fish then, because even if you don't say it out loud parking a battlecruiser over unaligned planets, even a really big flashy one with a botanical garden and pool, will never be totally unthreatening.

And this is starfleet we're talking about, so there's a pretty solid chance that a large, well-armed diplomatic cruiser will also just straight-up be used as a warship from time to time.
 
Most aliens won't have the same level of technology as the federation so even if just has two small blasters it could likely take out a lot of a aliens fleet or space infrastructure easily.
 
The only things I want in our diplomatic cruiser are a definitely not a giant cake and ice cream parlor disguised as a diplomatic conference room and the quadrant's largest combination arboretum and aquatic residences.
 
Gunboat diplomacy is the pursuit of diplomatic objectives (usually but not always foreign policy) via displays of naval power to imply a threat of war or war actions if demands are not met. There's no reason whatsoever it should be confined to 18th-20th century European/American actions, because it wasn't confined to them once other nations saw its effectiveness and started copying it. Hell, if we're glossing over the most trivial of semantics, gunboat diplomacy was being performed by nations long before the term was coined.

I don't really care if the Federation would object to the term, they've done gunboat diplomacy more than once in canon.

As for design goals, it's literally impossible to build an armed interstellar ship that can't do gunboat diplomacy if desired. A demonstration of the principle that finding technology that does what you want is easy, finding technology that does only what you want is very hard.
You want imperial timeline go to the Confederation or the Terrans. The Federation is never going to roll up and say 'join us or we phaser your cities' or demand trade concessions. Or any of the other things Gunboat Diplomacy means.

I'm still not averse to an armed diplomatic ship. Going into conflict zones we don't want to be a target. And we want to be able to demonstrate our ability to protect our allies, or indeed actually protect them if it comes to it. But the Federation is not an imperial power.

Better hope that our diplomats can sell water to fish then, because even if you don't say it out loud parking a battlecruiser over unaligned planets, even a really big flashy one with a botanical garden and pool, will never be totally unthreatening.



And this is starfleet we're talking about, so there's a pretty solid chance that a large, well-armed diplomatic cruiser will also just straight-up be used as a warship from time to time.

That's where having a reputation comes in. And why it's so damaging if someone starts letting someone have the firepower do the talking. They have to know the Federation simply doesnt do that.
 
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Gunboat diplomacy is the pursuit of diplomatic objectives (usually but not always foreign policy) via displays of naval power to imply a threat of war or war actions if demands are not met. There's no reason whatsoever it should be confined to 18th-20th century European/American actions, because it wasn't confined to them once other nations saw its effectiveness and started copying it. Hell, if we're glossing over the most trivial of semantics, gunboat diplomacy was being performed by nations long before the term was coined.

I don't really care if the Federation would object to the term, they've done gunboat diplomacy more than once in canon.

As for design goals, it's literally impossible to build an armed interstellar ship that can't do gunboat diplomacy if desired. A demonstration of the principle that finding technology that does what you want is easy, finding technology that does only what you want is very hard.
Better hope that our diplomats can sell water to fish then, because even if you don't say it out loud parking a battlecruiser over unaligned planets, even a really big flashy one with a botanical garden and pool, will never be totally unthreatening.

And this is starfleet we're talking about, so there's a pretty solid chance that a large, well-armed diplomatic cruiser will also just straight-up be used as a warship from time to time.
Okay, let me break it down a little bit. Gunboat diplomacy is not "I have a very powerful ship in orbit while I do diplomacy", and it's not even "my diplomacy ship is well-protected". That's fine, and the second one is frankly just common sense in a Trek universe.

Gunboat diplomacy is: "I have a warship in orbit to conduct 'diplomacy'. Now sign this ridiculously unequal 'treaty' or I am going to use my warship until I get what I want."
 
"Gunboat diplomacy" comes from the practice of parking a ship (or several) somewhere where it could blow the hell out of someone, something, or somewhere, and then telling that person/the person in charge/the owner that their options were doing what you wanted or the ship(s) opening fire. With "what you want" usually being something of diplomatic significance.

The term got generalized a bit over time though.
 
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Okay, let me break it down a little bit. Gunboat diplomacy is not "I have a very powerful ship in orbit while I do diplomacy", and it's not even "my diplomacy ship is well-protected". That's fine, and the second one is frankly just common sense in a Trek universe.

Gunboat diplomacy is: "I have a warship in orbit to conduct 'diplomacy'. Now sign this ridiculously unequal 'treaty' or I am going to use my warship until I get what I want."
You want imperial timeline go to the Confederation or the Terrans. The Federation is never going to roll up and say 'join us or we phaser your cities' or demand trade concessions. Or any of the other things Gunboat Diplomacy means.

I'm still not averse to an armed diplomatic ship. Going into conflict zones we don't want to be a target. And we want to be able to demonstrate our ability to protect our allies, or indeed actually protect them if it comes to it. But the Federation is not an imperial power.
So as an example, Sisko blasting the Maquis with tricobalt torpedoes to make them vacate the planet is not gunboat diplomacy?
 
You want imperial timeline go to the Confederation or the Terrans. The Federation is never going to roll up and say 'join us or we phaser your cities' or demand trade concessions. Or any of the other things Gunboat Diplomacy means.

I'm still not averse to an armed diplomatic ship. Going into conflict zones we don't want to be a target. And we want to be able to demonstrate our ability to protect our allies, or indeed actually protect them if it comes to it. But the Federation is not an imperial power.
Okay, let me break it down a little bit. Gunboat diplomacy is not "I have a very powerful ship in orbit while I do diplomacy", and it's not even "my diplomacy ship is well-protected". That's fine, and the second one is frankly just common sense in a Trek universe.

Gunboat diplomacy is: "I have a warship in orbit to conduct 'diplomacy'. Now sign this ridiculously unequal 'treaty' or I am going to use my warship until I get what I want."

"We come from that diplomatic battlecruiser in orbit with shields you cannot hope to down, weapons which can level your cities, and also it has like, a shitload of ice cream on board. We're far too enlightened to do any of that, ice cream aside, but those other guys? They'd totally do it. No hesitation, they really suck. In fact, here's footage of them nuking one of our own cities here. Wouldn't it suck if that happened to you? Of course, we'll try to stop them from doing it either way, we're just really great, but if you join our Federation we'd be happy to dedicate more resources to protecting you and your stuff from those terrible, terrible people."

A stick comes with the carrot, and that's before we get into any negotiations with our more belligerent neighbors. Sending Excaliburs to survey the systems between us and the Klingons is very much a form of gunboat diplomacy.
 
And this is starfleet we're talking about, so there's a pretty solid chance that a large, well-armed diplomatic cruiser will also just straight-up be used as a warship from time to time.
As far as the Klingons are concerned, any diplomats worth their salt will be capable of throwing down with the best of them. Ensuring diplomatic overtures are backed with nuclear weapons photon torpedoes will go surprisingly far.

I imagine any diplomatic courier ships will be fairly modest in size, intended to house and transport VIPs in comfort from one goodwill mission to the next. Specced for cruising speed, equipped with modest cargo capacity and some extra medical support to ensure the health of any diplomats, these ships would be sent to any neighboring powers that might benefit from a friendly helping hand (minor disaster relief, piracy suppression), as well as carry messages that perhaps shouldn't be broadcast over subspace radio. These couriers may well be minor variations on a generalist workhorse platform intended for routine operations across the Federation.

A pair of torpedo launchers ahead, one astern and a modest number of phaser banks would be enough to keep the ship safe from anything short of concerted action by an organized military force, especially with our modern impulse thrusters allowing us to use fewer weapons to greater effect. Upgun it with rapidfire launchers and you'll have one nasty customer, particularly if we install our sturdiest shield package.
 
Is the only difference whether or not you actually shoot, then?
The difference is whether you're using a threat of force, or actual force, for diplomatic concessions with someone you aren't at war with. Defensive war is fine. Defending your allies is fine. Countering influence of other imperial powers like the Klingons is fraught, but at least potentially fine. That's not what we're talking about.

It's like, people say there's no difference between terrorists and freedom fighters. But there is, and there's also possible overlap. You're a terrorist if you're using terror for political ends. Attacking military targets isn't terrorism.

Similarly, Sisko gets a ping on the War Crime meter for that one because he's in a military ship attacking a civilian population, on purpose.
 
The difference is whether you're using a threat of force, or actual force, for diplomatic concessions with someone you aren't at war with. Defensive war is fine. Defending your allies is fine. Countering influence of other imperial powers like the Klingons is fraught, but at least potentially fine. That's not what we're talking about.

It's like, people say there's no difference between terrorists and freedom fighters. But there is, and there's also possible overlap. You're a terrorist if you're using terror for political ends. Attacking military targets isn't terrorism.

Similarly, Sisko gets a ping on the War Crime meter for that one because he's in a military ship attacking a civilian population, on purpose.
That's actually pretty useful, thanks. Final two questions along those lines, then - IIRC the guy Sisko was chasing when he did that, Michael, was using chemical weapons on Cardassian civilians and was determined to kill every Cardassian colony in the demilitarized zone. Do we know if the colony that got tricobalt-ed was harboring Michael knowingly, and if so does that make them a war target in this instance?

EDIT: I'm aware that hitting other Maquis colonies not involved in that would still be a war crime.
 
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Hospital, disaster relief supplies, conference halls, embassy areas for if we're hosting negotiations between other polities (peace talks etc), five-star dining, and a giant arboretum featuring plants from various member worlds.

And weapons. Big stick, speak softly.
And then you find a way to duplicate all of that in (nearly) every possible life-sustaining combination of biochemistry, temperature, atmospheric composition and pressure, and accompanying microbiome, for the widest possible range of species sizes (there is current precedent for hundred-ton sapience on Earth, after all, given the cetaceans), while additionally making mirrored holodeck(s) out of a very large fraction of that volume, so that the species in the 1-atm-oxy-nitro-breathers in one set of conference rooms can interact "normally" with the 300-atm-methane-breathers in the reconfigurable conference rooms.
 
Look up Commodore Matthew Perry C. Perry if you want a textbook example of gunboat diplomacy. And its consequences even a century hence.
 
Hospital, disaster relief supplies, conference halls, embassy areas for if we're hosting negotiations between other polities (peace talks etc), five-star dining, and a giant arboretum featuring plants from various member worlds.

And weapons. Big stick, speak softly.
Sounds like a job for the Federation-class Dreadnought! ;)

Then the Star League-class Dreadnought! is its hexagonal-saucer cousin that strips out all that diplomatic crap for reinforced bulkheads everywhere, more firepower, and an experimental transwarp engine. Its purpose is to impress the hell out of the Klingons so they join the Federation centuries early 😈
 
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