Starfleet Design Bureau

I've brought it up earlier but I'd say that strapping a deflector and a nacelle or two onto this ship's saucer minus the existing engineering section and calling it a day would probably be sufficient for a light combatant.

To give it some utility you could swap out the facilities in the rear section of the saucer for a cargo and shuttle bay so that you've got a cheap Newton replacement since our current ship's looking like a good Saladin/Sagamartha replacement.
We could but what would be the point? The Constitution is already as fast as we can design a warship and we wouldn't save all that much with a cut down ship. Even a new-build frigate would likely have a cost floor of around 40-50 and less than half the capabilities.
Something kind of like that, yeah, even if it doesn't look like the Vengeance. It's a way to experiment with primary hull forms without tipping off the Temporal Agents because we've got Voyager's spoon-like hull a little over a century early.
I do like the hullform but the big deal IMO is that it gives much better accessibility for shuttlebays while keeping them protected behind the bulk of the ship. But shuttlecraft normally aren't useful on a warship. Maybe if that changes.
 
The Dominion made chowder out of Mirandas and Excelsiors that the Federation was forced to use for lack of ships, because they'd just stuck with those designs for far longer than was wise and didn't move to replace them with something more modern when they were swimming in time and money.
This is another one of those things that's fanon. We see Akiras and Sabers getting cut apart just as quickly in the same fleet battle scenes, just not as prominently as those two Mirandas accompanying the Defiant in Sacrifice Of Angels. The Lakota also demonstrates that Starfleet was upgrading older ships to current standards.
 
We could but what would be the point? The Constitution is already as fast as we can design a warship and we wouldn't save all that much with a cut down ship. Even a new-build frigate would likely have a cost floor of around 40-50 and less than half the capabilities.
40-50 less is around half a Connie's worth in cost, even just ~30 less would still be quite impactful so long as it has comparable forward weapons.

We can't win a war with just the Connie's since the Connie is noted to be a bit overbudget so having something affordable that can still wreck D6's and BoP's while being capable of Warp 8 would be very helpful since our Warp 7 fleet is going to take attrition.
 
This might be a little selfish, but I hope if the next ship is a combat vessel it's just a refit; the need for absolute precision and min-maxxing with the Connie made for some rough arguments and I wouldn't mind if we speedran a second warship
 
The Dominion was an out of context problem that teleported it in from across the galaxy.

"The Federation should keep a huge supply of warships just in case the something teleports in from the other side of the galaxy" is not the basis for a rational defense policy. The Borg weren't a threat the the Federation could outbuild and the Federation matched the rest of the local (semi-) hostile powers just fine.
Or rather, it is because we live in a crazy galaxy full of Outside Context Problems. But having something in your back pocket for the occasional Really Bad Day is not the same as saying we've been horribly arrogant and complacent because we've got really good designs that are doing everything they have to right now.
 
Right up until those ships were flying death traps with catastrophically outdated engines, weapons and shields. Watch them get sliced and diced, and Starfleet was so arrogant they still described them as "fine ships". Only slightly less moronic than taking an ironclad up against a modern war destroyer. Insanity.
You're very much assuming that those ships didn't have updated systems. Like, looking at the diagrams of ships we've made, I've just been assuming that the only mostly unchangeable part is the warp core.
 
You're very much assuming that those ships didn't have updated systems. Like, looking at the diagrams of ships we've made, I've just been assuming that the only mostly unchangeable part is the warp core.
There's a common and very sensible assumption that since most Star Trek technology involves field manipulation (many different subspace fields, structural integrity fields) and ship design changes and follows certain trends presumably to achieve the effects that design wants according to the current understanding of physics and engineering available, that you are unlikely to see the full performance of new technology integrated into older designs. After all, why radically change said designs if the older ones were infinitely upgradable? You'd just use the exact same shapes and proportions and never build new ships.

It's also probable that things like form factors for new hardware etc don't play nice with older designs, just like in the real world. Your phasers, shield generators etc aren't going to fit in the same sockets as the old ones if the technology isn't the same. Your computer core may be too thick, or too thin, or require different cooling that's just a hassle. New systems literally may not fit properly and be non-viable. Refits would then be a pragmatic balance between how complicated that refit is going to be and how much performance you want to unlock. This is a serious real-world problem and tends to get more complicated the higher the performance of your hardware. Show me something more high-performance than an antimatter-powered starship with energy weapons, humming with energy fields.

I think you probably can get most of the performance of new hardware if you're really determined or have no choice, but again, that'll be very tricky, time-consuming and depends on situation. If you're going to have to remove the entire hull plating, 40% of the ribbing, 50% of the internal sections etc... You wouldn't bother, you'd just build a new ship. Some designs probably play nicer with upgrades, some are probably dead ends when technology changes and evolves differently than expected. We probably aren't privy to all this going on.

Yes, I know it's an assumption, but it's a perfectly logical one consistent with the show and the real world. Older designs tend not to be as capable as newer designs, or they wouldn't change.
 
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Remember Geordi talking about the Jenolin in Relics? It was a fundamentally sound design and could easily have still been in service in the TNG era doing low stress transport work. You know, exactly what it was doing before.

The Excelsiors are like that too, except for as a high end battleship/explorer that were honestly far more successful than the Constitutions ever were. A combination of a century of steady engineering updates Starship of Theseused them into functional modern ship. The Dominion being able to kill them doesn't tell us the Excelsiors were bad, it tells us the Dominion was really good.

Heck, the Dominion started the war like fifty years ahead of the Federation in technology. Among other things shields just flat out didn't stop their weapons or transporters, and they came it you in numbers. It didn't matter WHO you were, going into battle with them was suicide. Federation technology at the start of the war just was flat out not up for it.

And then, as the Federation does, they adapted. The shields started working again, Jem Hadar couldn't just beam onto your ship, they started being able to track them on sensors, all that good stuff. By the end they were peer powers, not least because of all those science labs we keep sticking on our ships. But they sure didn't start that way.
 
[X] Constitution-class.

I realize I'm tilting at a windmill here, but this thing is going to be an Explorer and it's best for the name to reflect such. There's no reason for the Federation not to use it as such, literally the only option we didn't take that would've made it superior for such was hydroponics but even that was a "there are three that would be perfect for this use case and we could only pick two" situation.

Forget the context of the Temporal Agent's notes. This is our fastest, longest legged ship and then we gave it the ability to manufacture the exact sort of parts that break under long-duration cruise conditions before also tacking on the capability to provide long-term medical care to crew members, conduct stellar cartography, and just be a generally comfortable ride.

This is a long-range, high-endurance, cruiser and it will conduct Five Year Missions post-war. It would be an absurd misallocation of hulls to not have it conduct them.
 
Given that the next ship is likely going to be designed and built during hostilities with the Klingons, I expect the brief to be for a small escort ship that can be built en masse. It's a tried-and-true plan that's worked wonders before.

If we do, It'd be nice if we could build something exactly small enough to hit Very High Manoeuvrability on a single Type-3 thruster (so 90,000 KT I think?) to really get our money's worth for it, given we spent extra on this ship to get the Type-3 out of prototyping.
 
Remember Geordi talking about the Jenolin in Relics? It was a fundamentally sound design and could easily have still been in service in the TNG era doing low stress transport work. You know, exactly what it was doing before.

The Excelsiors are like that too, except for as a high end battleship/explorer that were honestly far more successful than the Constitutions ever were. A combination of a century of steady engineering updates Starship of Theseused them into functional modern ship. The Dominion being able to kill them doesn't tell us the Excelsiors were bad, it tells us the Dominion was really good.

Heck, the Dominion started the war like fifty years ahead of the Federation in technology. Among other things shields just flat out didn't stop their weapons or transporters, and they came it you in numbers. It didn't matter WHO you were, going into battle with them was suicide. Federation technology at the start of the war just was flat out not up for it.

And then, as the Federation does, they adapted. The shields started working again, Jem Hadar couldn't just beam onto your ship, they started being able to track them on sensors, all that good stuff. By the end they were peer powers, not least because of all those science labs we keep sticking on our ships. But they sure didn't start that way.
Having a bunch of space gods on their side certainly didn't hurt, either.
 
Given that the next ship is likely going to be designed and built during hostilities with the Klingons, I expect the brief to be for a small escort ship that can be built en masse. It's a tried-and-true plan that's worked wonders before.

If we do, It'd be nice if we could build something exactly small enough to hit Very High Manoeuvrability on a single Type-3 thruster (so 90,000 KT I think?) to really get our money's worth for it, given we spent extra on this ship to get the Type-3 out of prototyping.
Can we do 90kt and still have 7 decks minimum for the warp engine?
Not saying it's impossible, but I think it would be cutting it pretty close.
 
Hmmm, for this project because it was a bit of a rush job both design teams were put together. But I wonder if they'll get split apart now again to work on their own separate projects once more. They've both gotten experience working with Warp 8 engines and the newest technologies. So Lore wise the teams could be said to be somewhat up to speed with the latest and maybe it will be seen more efficient to do two projects while much of the building capacity is filled with the last few ship designs.

Though I expect quite a large part of the budget will be the new large Cruiser, as even if it is a little expensive, it is a very capable design indeed and there isn't really much hope to do massively better then that in a Cruiser hull for anything like reasonable price points. So you might as well just get a lot of these to cover all jobs in the Medium-Heavy-Battlecruiser roles, as this ship clearly can do those.


If that is the case, they might for a few years not see a need for an as quick as possible next design. Rather seeing what their design teams can do next with the new tech as the new ships build in number.
 
There's a common and very sensible assumption that since most Star Trek technology involves field manipulation (many different subspace fields, structural integrity fields) and ship design changes and follows certain trends presumably to achieve the effects that design wants according to the current understanding of physics and engineering available, that you are unlikely to see the full performance of new technology integrated into older designs. After all, why radically change said designs if the older ones were infinitely upgradable? You'd just use the exact same shapes and proportions and never build new ships.

It's also probable that things like form factors for new hardware etc don't play nice with older designs, just like in the real world. Your phasers, shield generators etc aren't going to fit in the same sockets as the old ones if the technology isn't the same. Your computer core may be too thick, or too thin, or require different cooling that's just a hassle. New systems literally may not fit properly and be non-viable. Refits would then be a pragmatic balance between how complicated that refit is going to be and how much performance you want to unlock. This is a serious real-world problem and tends to get more complicated the higher the performance of your hardware. Show me something more high-performance than an antimatter-powered starship with energy weapons, humming with energy fields.

I think you probably can get most of the performance of new hardware if you're really determined or have no choice, but again, that'll be very tricky, time-consuming and depends on situation. If you're going to have to remove the entire hull plating, 40% of the ribbing, 50% of the internal sections etc... You wouldn't bother, you'd just build a new ship. Some designs probably play nicer with upgrades, some are probably dead ends when technology changes and evolves differently than expected. We probably aren't privy to all this going on.

Yes, I know it's an assumption, but it's a perfectly logical one consistent with the show and the real world. Older designs tend not to be as capable as newer designs, or they wouldn't change.
I mean, materials fatigue probably means that you are having to do fairly major refits several times over that kind of service life anyway; and or scrapping outright an older vessel and new-building a Block K or Mark Sixty or whatever that includes the required design adjustments from the word go.

Remember Geordi talking about the Jenolin in Relics? It was a fundamentally sound design and could easily have still been in service in the TNG era doing low stress transport work. You know, exactly what it was doing before.

The Excelsiors are like that too, except for as a high end battleship/explorer that were honestly far more successful than the Constitutions ever were. A combination of a century of steady engineering updates Starship of Theseused them into functional modern ship. The Dominion being able to kill them doesn't tell us the Excelsiors were bad, it tells us the Dominion was really good.

Heck, the Dominion started the war like fifty years ahead of the Federation in technology. Among other things shields just flat out didn't stop their weapons or transporters, and they came it you in numbers. It didn't matter WHO you were, going into battle with them was suicide. Federation technology at the start of the war just was flat out not up for it.

And then, as the Federation does, they adapted. The shields started working again, Jem Hadar couldn't just beam onto your ship, they started being able to track them on sensors, all that good stuff. By the end they were peer powers, not least because of all those science labs we keep sticking on our ships. But they sure didn't start that way.
Also this. Like, Phased Poleron beams were a complete "HOW" that went right through shields like they weren't even there; it doesn't matter how good your ship is if its primary defensive system is about as effective as a wet paper bag.
[X] Constitution-class.

I realize I'm tilting at a windmill here, but this thing is going to be an Explorer and it's best for the name to reflect such. There's no reason for the Federation not to use it as such, literally the only option we didn't take that would've made it superior for such was hydroponics but even that was a "there are three that would be perfect for this use case and we could only pick two" situation.

Forget the context of the Temporal Agent's notes. This is our fastest, longest legged ship and then we gave it the ability to manufacture the exact sort of parts that break under long-duration cruise conditions before also tacking on the capability to provide long-term medical care to crew members, conduct stellar cartography, and just be a generally comfortable ride.

This is a long-range, high-endurance, cruiser and it will conduct Five Year Missions post-war. It would be an absurd misallocation of hulls to not have it conduct them.
On the contrary, it would be an absurd misallocation of hulls to send our rapid response beatstick battlecruiser haring off years away from our borders where it is of no use whatsoever for the job we actually designed it to do, which is keeping people from breaking our stuff. This design was not at all an Explorer conceptually and any ability it has to fill the role is strictly incidental to its actual purpose.

As I stated a few pages ago, an Explorer is absolutely a warship, but this is not its primary focus; indeed the Explorer design space is very much that of a do-everything generalist. It must be powerful in battle, yes, because it will generally be fighting alone and with no possibility of reinforcement or rescue in a timeframe that matters, but it also must possess top-notch scientific and engineering capability because it has to be able to solve any sort of problem it runs in to out of its own resources. In short: An Explorer is by neccessity a massively overbuilt generalist, and generally a design space where cost is not especially considered a serious matter.

And this ship, whatever we call it, was never going to be that, because the design space it was built to was "Warship for killing Klingon Battlecruisers" and even choices like fundamental hull configuration were made in support of that goal at the expense of other capabilities.

Re: new designs: I expect that we're either going to get a Selatchii replacement/successor or the Type Four Nacelle during the war, depending on how Sayle feels the current design performs in that context. Either way, I don't support doing any large or non urgent need vessels before we have a Type Four Nacelle so we aren't being limited by the old type threes.
 
40-50 less is around half a Connie's worth in cost, even just ~30 less would still be quite impactful so long as it has comparable forward weapons.

We can't win a war with just the Connie's since the Connie is noted to be a bit overbudget so having something affordable that can still wreck D6's and BoP's while being capable of Warp 8 would be very helpful since our Warp 7 fleet is going to take attrition.
I have serious doubts because the main cost-cutting would be hull and durability, with potential side issues of losing torpedo throw weight due to ending up cramped. Actually getting below 50 means heavy firepower cuts in addition to the hull cuts.
 
I'm at a point where I kinda wish we had more things to buy tbh. Or I suppose I miss having the civillian budget too.

Having the only things that really cost money be weapons, shields, and engines kinda made the whole 'dont spend money that's not tactically justifiable' of the Almost-certainly-Excalibur program somewhat redundant.

We CANT meaningfully spend money on anything not tactical. After all, modules are free under the current systems.
 
I'm at a point where I kinda wish we had more things to buy tbh. Or I suppose I miss having the civillian budget too.

Having the only things that really cost money be weapons, shields, and engines kinda made the whole 'dont spend money that's not tactically justifiable' of the Almost-certainly-Excalibur program somewhat redundant.

We CANT meaningfully spend money on anything not tactical. After all, modules are free under the current systems.
I mean, we could have said "Damn the torpedoes and hang the cost, We'll make an Explorer anyway" and gone for a max size full saucer and engineering hull with some kind of supercruise Nacelle configuration like a triple or quad set, put more phasers on it than it could really use, three rapid launchers with two in the front and one in the back, and, well, you get the idea.
We obviously didn't do that - hell, I want to make a dedicated Explorer for our Warp 8 fleet and even I didn't support that - but we could have.
 
On the contrary, it would be an absurd misallocation of hulls to send our rapid response beatstick battlecruiser haring off years away from our borders where it is of no use whatsoever for the job we actually designed it to do, which is keeping people from breaking our stuff. This design was not at all an Explorer conceptually and any ability it has to fill the role is strictly incidental to its actual purpose.

As I stated a few pages ago, an Explorer is absolutely a warship, but this is not its primary focus; indeed the Explorer design space is very much that of a do-everything generalist. It must be powerful in battle, yes, because it will generally be fighting alone and with no possibility of reinforcement or rescue in a timeframe that matters, but it also must possess top-notch scientific and engineering capability because it has to be able to solve any sort of problem it runs in to out of its own resources. In short: An Explorer is by neccessity a massively overbuilt generalist, and generally a design space where cost is not especially considered a serious matter.

And this ship, whatever we call it, was never going to be that, because the design space it was built to was "Warship for killing Klingon Battlecruisers" and even choices like fundamental hull configuration were made in support of that goal at the expense of other capabilities.

You are acting like these are contrary design goals. They are not. Kirk's Enterprise was on a Five Year Mission of exploration as part of the Federation-Klingon Cold War, not a willful disregard of it. In TOS, the Federation-Klingon border isn't, it's a broadly uncharted frontier. At no point does anyone onboard act like it's a contradiction of their orders to partake in Great Game style shenanigans with their opposite numbers, because they know it's not. The principle purpose of the Five Year Mission is to expand the Federation's ability to keep the Klingons distracted Over There so they don't break our stuff Over Here. Keeping these vessels as a menacing stick as some sort of QRF behind our lines would essentially be ceding the strategic initiative, as well as the uncontacted worlds in the frontier, to the Klingon Empire.

And bluntly, you are selling this ship far too short. It is a massively overbuilt generalist. It has six modules that give it extremely robust capabilities. We might have gotten up to eight if we had gone with the canon Connie hullform, but I doubt it, because the entire impetus behind the thread picking the Type 3 engines was to recoup space lost by our hull decisions - Sayle has in fact already said that the canon Connie used Type 2s, so I wouldn't be surprised if we had about as much flexibility in our modules as canon did.
 
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