Starfleet Design Bureau

[Wootius]

I disagree.

Normally a D6 would've kicked the shit out of our biggest, strongest ship.
And the D7 is on its way, with the Klinks' own next generation of disruptors and photorps to sear your molecules to a crisp.

We aren't going to beat the Klingons with one big beautiful ship with the name Enterprise lovingly painted across every visible surface. There's going to be quite a bit of attrition across a wide front.

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Yes, I did say threat not superior. It's why I'm advocating some weight control to hit medium or medium-high Maneuverability to complement our coverage phasers and torpedoes for this generation. The Sagarmatha was medium-slow and paid for it, but we have a lot of bonuses to impulse speed for the next generation of ships.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

Which the Halley (Or Archer) is going to be well equipped along with its sister-ship out of SanFran to help strongly mitigate. We need ships capable of surviving that slugging match, and thats just as much an issue of defense as it is sufficient gun to bring things to an end quickly.


I've found its generally best to let the person themselves explain what they mean in that context when it comes to the internet in the event of a miscommunication, rather than making assumptions on their behalf. But I do think we need an anchor more than that right now regardless.

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We should exploit the two prototypes we just did as much as possible. We are lighter with better thrusters. We should build a three thruster battle cruiser that hits the extreme maneuverability ratings.

Basically a ballerina of a battle cruiser that's way more nimble than anything it's size should be.

Heavy forward photon torpedoes and reasonable phaser coverage.

Avoid the slugging match. Go for the quick kills against anything big enough to threaten one.

 

[NavySeel]

I think in this context "generalist" means making a battle cruiser with a sprint nacelle configuration that has roughly even science and engineering scores.

Fast, shooty, and modestly capable of doing other stuff.

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Focus on combat and get to a score of 8 or so in each of science and engineering, and I think it'd work pretty well.

Issue we'll probably want something to replicate how the NX and Thunderchilds performed in terms of sheer phaser coverage which could lead to it being expensive.

 

[Quickshot0]

We're going to be stuck using Warp 7 designs for most of the war anyways, because that's the decision we made when designing the Warp 8 engine. So our question here is if we want to have our ONE pre-war warp 8 design be just a faster version of an existing modern ship, or a replacement for a venerable and outdated ship.

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Can't say I agree as saying that a design meant for something else is some how a 'modern' design really doesn't track as a realistic take to me. And that general rating scores for the Newton really wasn't high at all.

We currently do not have a modern cruiser design, certainly not a heavy one. And those could use the speed more.

 

[Tank man]

I think in this context "generalist" means making a battle cruiser with a sprint nacelle configuration that has roughly even science and engineering scores.

Fast, shooty, and modestly capable of doing other stuff.

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I'd call a battlecruiser in this context something of an in between of the explorer (heavy cruiser) and battleship. Not as great as each other in their specialised role (though I'd say you could get something pretty damn close if you tried) but still capable of both exploring beyond our borders/doing enterprise stuff and also being a big of enough of a stick that during peace time the Klingons have to wonder just where the hell these ships actually are, lest they pop up in their backyard and burn some starbases.

 

[Golgotha]

Next minute:
Our choices are a diplomacy ship, a hospital ship and a specialized terraformer science vessel and we spend twenty pages discussing which one we can upgun the most

 

[Fouredged Sword]

I'd call a battlecruiser in this context something of an in between of the explorer (heavy cruiser) and battleship. Not as great as each other in their specialised role (though I'd say you could get something pretty damn close if you tried) but still capable of both exploring beyond our borders/doing enterprise stuff and also being a big of enough of a stick that during peace time the Klingons have to wonder just where the hell these ships actually are, lest they pop up in their backyard and burn some starbases.

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Kinda. In general a battle cruiser performs a different role than ether a heavy cruiser or battleship. A battleship is a slugger. It takes and gives hits. A heavy cruiser is an escort ship. It bulks out fleets. Both are defense heavy designs.

A battle cruiser is intended for solo or small pack formations rather than a line of battle. It's design is to be able to punch out anything capable of catching it. Defense is sacrificed for speed and damage output. The idea is to pick fights and to win them quick with disproportionate firepower.

Meanwhile the warp 7 fleet is playing defense.

 

[Firehawk242]

Can't say I agree as saying that a design meant for something else is some how a 'modern' design really doesn't track as a realistic take to me. And that general rating scores for the Newton really wasn't high at all.

We currently do not have a modern cruiser design, certainly not a heavy one. And those could use the speed more.

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It literally JUST came out, how is it not modern?

Look, from the way you're talking, you seem to be imagining a Warp 8 fleet. That ain't happening until AFTER the war. We made the decision when we designed the engine in the first place, and now we have to deal with that.

As it stands, the Newton is, in fact, our most modern and arguably most capable combatant.

 

[Wootius]

@Sayle

If we kept to the same weight class as the Sagarmatha with 3 T3 impulse engines and the Warp 8 core boost what would our Maneuverability be today?

 

[Tank man]

A battle cruiser is intended for solo or small pack formations rather than a line of battle. It's design is to be able to punch out anything capable of catching it. Defense is sacrificed for speed and damage output. The idea is to pick fights and to win them quick with disproportionate firepower.

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I'm aware, I'm pretty sure I quoted Fisher's logic behind their roles when I first brought it up.

Though the sacrifice of defence is a bit overplayed, imo, at battle ranges the armour of the Lions onwards was generally sufficient against the guns of their German counterparts (who were armed as their battleships were), the British battlecruisers died to a combination of turret roof penetration and improper ammunition handling.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

@Sayle

If we kept to the same weight class as the Sagarmatha with 3 T3 impulse engines and the Warp 8 core boost what would our Maneuverability be today?

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The Sag was 450,000 tons. The Newton with 2 unboosted T2 thrusters and 130,000 tons was high maneuverability.

Using 3 T3 thrusters with the 20% boost from the core we can likely keep a high maneuverability even with a 300-400 Kton ship.

And that's kinda terrifying.

Though push comes to shove I would go with a 300 kTon ship if it meant we could push into very high maneuverability.

 

[7th Hex]

@Sayle

If we kept to the same weight class as the Sagarmatha with 3 T3 impulse engines and the Warp 8 core boost what would our Maneuverability be today?

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Well, we have some numbers for all of those, so we can probably ballpark it fairly accurately ourselves?

Saga is 290,000 tons, the Type-3 can push "150,000?" tons at standard thrust according to that post about the new prototype mechanics, and the Warp 8 core got a 20% increase to impulse power.

3x Type-3s should then be able to push around 450,000 tons at standard thrust, multiply that by 1.2 for the Warp core bonus and we get 540,000 tons.

Divide that by the 290,000 ton mass of the Saga, and we get a ratio of ~1.86, where a ratio of 1 would be whatever maneuverability standard thrust is.

 

[Quickshot0]

It literally JUST came out, how is it not modern?

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It's because I don't consider it as a good cruiser, it has a strong emphasis on engineering with the compromises that required.

Thus there is no good modern cruiser, beyond that it's on the light end. Thus why I brought up that we certainly don't have a heavy cruiser of modern design.


And no, I'm not imagining getting a full Warp 8 fleet. My original point was that we weren't going to get it, thus I looked at which ships need a Warp 8 engine the most first. But based on that it's not the biggest ships, but more things like the cruisers. After all, because we can't get a Warp 8 fleet for the war, this means any ship that mostly operates in a fleet is effectively a Warp 7 ship and only gets some extra combat boosts. Which really means they fall short of the full potential they could have had otherwise.

No one has really poked any significant hole in the arguments I used for that in my opinion, so obviously I will continue to hold the belief that something lighter like the cruisers need replacing first. It would be pretty irrational of me to not do that.


In the end of the day thus, I believe cruisers is where one will see the biggest return on invested cost. Rather then a large capital craft which won't even be able to use its Warp 8 capability all that often. It's strange to choose a class that won't be able to make use of the speed.


PS, considering Starfleet seems to suffer under followup ships of the same class getting bigger. It's probably worth noting a future heavy cruiser would probably be fairly sizable already.

 

[NavySeel]

The Newton and Selachiis are probably going to be our main combatants to start off, I think they should perform alright, even if they aren't perfect and the Selachii is somewhat outdated, the issue is they're both forward focused in their firepower.

We really need a larger ship with all around coverage to fill that hole in our doctrine, especially with the Klingons using cloaks.

 

[Vehrec]

I mean, between the structure, passive radiation shielding (probably lead or the like), life support equipment, the inertial dampers, the structural integrity fields, the gravity controls, the lights, and enough batteries to run most of that for at least a few hours if not days for transfer? not super surprised it weighs as much as a small starship- it basically is one, after all.


This is a fully enclosed volume the size of a panamax container ship, which can easily run into 80,000 tons before cargo mass, and they don't have to worry about atmospheric pressure, cosmic radiation, or all the subspace nonsense incorporated into everything in Star Trek. 30 ktons seems about right, from what we've seen from starships.


Someone who's better at math than me could probably ballpark what the minimum structure mass is for enclosing that kind of volume.

But WoG is that provided mass figures are dry mass, so.
(and I question the notion of setting vibe, since there is so much that the shows just never get into as a consequence of the format)

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See, I don't think there's much in the way of, lights, batteries, gravity, structural integrity fields, life support equipment (that's all parasited off the main ship, when it's needed), and it's a tin can, not a small starship. But since we have such vastly different expectations, that's to be expected.

Yes, it's the size of a panamax container ship, but it's built far more like an airplane fuselage, so I don't think it's realistic to expect it to act like a big mass of deadweight steel. Maybe the closest thing I imagine it to, is the space shuttle's external tank. That was 46 meters long, 8 meters wide, only 26 tons dry-mass-liftoff mass, 760 tons. Which would be about 1/6th the legnth, and 1/4th the beam, so about 1/96th the volume, but since it's only a *skin* wrapped around the cargo, I think the mass would be proportionally lower.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

The Newton and Selachiis are probably going to be our main combatants to start off, I think they should perform alright, even if they aren't perfect and the Selachii is somewhat outdated, the issue is they're both forward focused in their firepower.

We really need a larger ship with all around coverage to fill that hole in our doctrine, especially with the Klingons using cloaks.

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The problem is that the warp 8 ship can and will need to outrun the rest of the fleet, otherwise we may as well build warp 7 ships.

Nor will we have them in large numbers.

So we should build a warp 8 ship designed to function in small solo groups or alone.

That's why I keep leaning in the battle cruiser direction. Battlecruisers don't rely on other ships to fill weaknesses. They are designed to function alone or with other battlecruisers.

 

[LOLROFL]

We should be due for some Torpedo upgrades for our next design.

So far we seem to be getting the option for new Torpedoes roughly every 4-5 ships if we don't count Starbases, major component upgrades, or smaller ships like the Merchant and Constable.

• (Atomic Torpedoes) Stingray -> Merchant -> NX -> Refit Stingray -> Thunderchild (Photonic Torpedoes)
• (Photonic Torpedoes) Thunderchild -> Skate -> Curiosity -> Cygnus -> Sagarmatha (Type 1 Photon Torpedoes)
• (Type 1 Photon Torpedoes) Sagarmatha -> Constable -> Selachii -> Pharos -> Kea -> Archer -> ?

The timespan has been progressively getting longer between torpedo upgrades but even then it's been nearly 50 years since the Type 1 Photons were introduced and I would expect some improvements to be possible at this point.

• Atomics: 2145-2157 (12 years)
• Photonics: 2157-2175 (18 years)
• Type 1 Photon Torpedoes: 2175-Present (49 years)

 

[KlavoHunter]

especially with the Klingons using cloaks.

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are they??? Legitimate question here

That said, it should not be a significant problem to make an affordable, mass-producable ship with 80-100% Phaser coverage and (Very?) High Maneuverability, to scrape hypothetical Birds of Prey off your buddies' backs (are Birds of Prey even popular warships in this era?), while the Newtons try and dive the D6s/D7s and forcefeed them photorps...

 

[NavySeel]

The problem is that the warp 8 ship can and will need to outrun the rest of the fleet, otherwise we may as well build warp 7 ships.

Nor will we have them in large numbers.

So we should build a warp 8 ship designed to function in small solo groups or alone.

That's why I keep leaning in the battle cruiser direction. Battlecruisers don't rely on other ships to fill weaknesses. They are designed to function alone or with other battlecruisers.

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I don't think the two ideas are contradictory really, we need a large well armed ship that can go out alone or in small groups for scouting, but then also cover that weakness of being entirely forward focused in our slower ships.

I think a large combat focused cruiser either heavy or a battle cruiser fulfills both of those roles.

 

[aceraptor]

A Sagamantha replacement that is meant to break any D6 or D7 it faces while having the phaser coverage to swat Birds of Prey that try to flank it via cloak could be a worthy investment since the Klingon doctrine is essentially scary spearhead cruisers (D6/7s) to bust open a opponent's defensive line to allow Bird of Preys to slip through en masse to wreak havoc in the enemy rear lines.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

I don't think the two ideas are contradictory really, we need a large well armed ship that can go out alone or in small groups for scouting, but then also cover that weakness of being entirely forward focused in our slower ships.

I think a large combat focused cruiser either heavy or a battle cruiser fulfills both of those roles.

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Basically we should not compromise on maneuverability or forward torpedo load on the assumption that there will be a fleet around to cover blind spots and add volume of fire.

 

[Candesce]

The problem is, unless we get a phaser upgrade, a bigger ship only provides more firepower insofar as it carries more torpedo launchers. Tougher, sure, but not shootier.

And a bigger ship is going to have a harder time bringing those torpedoes to bear. unless we spend more of the mass on engines.

There's certainly a degree to which we want tougher, of course; the Klingon Bird-Of-Prey design is good for putting a lot of energy on a target very quickly, especially if they bring a bunch of them. But we've just prototyped new armor and we've got a new shield design to work with.

So I'm more inclined towards high-maneuverability cruiser than anything bigger.

 

[NavySeel]

Basically we should not compromise on maneuverability or forward torpedo load on the assumption that there will be a fleet around to cover blind spots and add volume of fire.

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Did I propose doing either? I just think having all around phaser coverage is very important too.

 

[Tank man]

So I'm more inclined towards high-maneuverability cruiser than anything bigger.

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Again, DIS so take it with a grain of salt for this question, but the Connie is meant to be 190,000 tonnes.

The Sag was 450,000 tons. The Newton with 2 unboosted T2 thrusters and 130,000 tons was high maneuverability.

Using 3 T3 thrusters with the 20% boost from the core we can likely keep a high maneuverability even with a 300-400 Kton ship.

And that's kinda terrifying.

Though push comes to shove I would go with a 300 kTon ship if it meant we could push into very high maneuverability.

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So if this maths holds true, then we could make a ship with twice the mass of it and still get high manoeuvrability.

 

[Endorfinator]

So here is my proposal on what our next two projects should be.

Next Generation Explorer Program
180-200m main saucer section
Large engineering hull
Engines, Hull, Shield should all be standard or produce systems
Vessel should be optimized for cruise speed and range
Heavy torpedo armament,, Heavy phaser armament
Scientific facilities should focus on general stellar cartography and biological sampling
Engineering facilities should focus on extending tike away from dry dock

Advanced Patrol Cruiser Program
Should utilize same saucer and impulse engine set-up as NGE. Small Engineering hull, mature or standard systems. Weapons should be approximately 0.8 that of the NGE. Warp drive should be configured for sprint speed. Scientific facilities should focus on prospecting and bio-medical response. Engineering should focus on colony support or supporting other ships.