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For my own, personal two cents on the topic Discord vs No Discord, I will say that I like the less formal tone Discord discussions usually have - I don't feel like I have to spend 10 - 15 minutes hammering out an ironclad argument, constantly viewing the latest messages and trying to incorporate them into what I'm trying to say just to go "I think we should vote for this".
Also worth noting that SV doesn't have a mobile app, so if I want to keep up with discussion in the thread, I'm stuck using a mobile browser with all that implies (mostly ads, ads everywhere). Meanwhile, on Discord I can poke into it on my lunch break, with far shorter loading times and no banner ads clogging up the bottom of the screen.
Also worth noting that SV doesn't have a mobile app, so if I want to keep up with discussion in the thread, I'm stuck using a mobile browser with all that implies (mostly ads, ads everywhere). Meanwhile, on Discord I can poke into it on my lunch break, with far shorter loading times and no banner ads clogging up the bottom of the screen.
Assuming you're not using an iPhone you should be able to download the Firefox browser (mobile) and then get an ad blocker on that.
I my opinion the game should be run, for better or worse, in one medium. If the goal is to have a discord quest and just use SV for voting and story posts that's fine.
But if the goal is to still have this quest on SV and for people to participate on SV then the discord is a bad idea. Mixing mediums just causes problems where the now divided player base conflicts with itself.
And in my experience this results in the quest migrating to Discord and for the SV thread to devolve into votes and story posts, and this is, in my opinion, bad because a major part of quests is the cooperative story creation and discord nukes all that the moment anyone looks away.
But if the goal is to still have this quest on SV and for people to participate on SV then the discord is a bad idea. Mixing mediums just causes problems where the now divided player base conflicts with itself.
And in my experience this results in the quest migrating to Discord and for the SV thread to devolve into votes and story posts, and this is, in my opinion, bad because a major part of quests is the cooperative story creation and discord nukes all that the moment anyone looks away.
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Yeah if we get a discord cabal forming that starts to control the votes then it's going to disincentivize me from participating. They feel exclusionary and I don't want to legitimize it, so it's easier to just not participate.
This is what happens to those of us that don't like quest Discords if one forms and starts pushing plans. We all have to fend off arguments that are already worked out and we don't even get the dignity of knowing who is really pushing them. Or potentially even having them in the thread. It's just really lame.
Also, as I've pointed out, with people who aren't quest participants in the discord if the cabal vote ends up loosing out to the thread participants voting it's quite probable that they'll be called in to stuff the vote.
Now, that could happen anyways in theory for just about anything (we are in a huge forum and people have friends on here), but when they've got the investment of 'why are these people (who've never even read it*) so against our well thought out plan that we've all agreed to?' it does incentivise such behaviour.
*Cause you know, it's part of some now long buried conversation in a discord they've never been on.
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- Location
- Somewhere in the Ashes
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I do not care what Discord's consensus was. It was came to by a cabal that held a discussion that was not in the primary forum for this quest, and therefore should be considered irrelevant and unrepresentative of the thread.
In other words, @Sayle the Discord is doing exactly what we all said it would, and needs to be nuked ASAP.
Not to mention, is hostile to the idea that discussion regarding these decisions take place here.
0t4n1z3r019
Member of the HAFPTG
- Location
- Philippines
[X] Archer-class. After famous engineers.
Yeah, that's pretty much the way I was feeling as I was browsing the commentary. 'tis done. My hope was that since nobody got privileged information or advanced notice that the people who wanted that space could have it to spitball or just discuss generally speaking. But I suppose it's the natural human tendency to extrapolate and come to group decisions, and that creates pockets of inaccessible information or discourse for other people.
I'm not saying that people were inherently misusing it, but the level of discourse that's needed to avoid that kind of inherent bias becomes vanishingly less likely the larger the group grows. Just the way it is. Well, I was asked for it, I provided it, it wasn't the environment it needed to be for compatibility. As a certain Vulcan once said, the needs of the many.
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NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
So... it's decided the discord is bad for the quest, the qm agrees, people point out the exact issue with certain portion of the userbase having discussions others can't see.
And you decide that the solution is to make an even more secret discord for people you personally want in there.
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The QM has already spoken as to the issues an official quest discord causes, your third party one will be worse than that by virtue of not being officially sanctioned and may even run afoul of SV quest vote manipulation rules (since it's a third party not engaging with the thread likely all voting in a particular way) depending on how you conduct it.
- Pronouns
- Him/He/His
Yep. Though I'd probably post the link to the sv overarching discord (if I can), so not as secret really.
Unfortunately I probably won't have enough join-ees to warrant it's existence. But I still resent the destruction of the discord. It's only secret if one allows it to be. And hell, nothing stops people from discussing the quest elsewhere anyway, there's hundreds of discords with a connection to sv, any one of them could build a "cabal" or have one already.
Edit: among other measures, maybe there's a section of the site for posting invites to places, I'd have to check.
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One dude was hostile. One. And while I'm of mixed opinion about the virtue of discords, I think the very worry about a discord cabal is hilarious considering the thread rapidly reaches consensus early and then very rarely changes it's mind.
So, you know. I see no more than a reaction by the same people who didn't want it jumping on their first confirmation it's a problem. That said, it's dead, so I'm moving on, but let's not blow up a molehill into a mountain. It wasn't one.
(Because, also, while the discord "Settled" on something, it was 3~5 people in a voting thread that usually reaches to 100 votes, and likely would have rehashed the entire argument because that's what we do.)
KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
Archival footage, USS Kea, Stardate [REDACTED], using her main deflector to destroy the Discord Anomaly (Colorized)
We are in the right rough period to meet Satan.
Archival footage, USS Kea, Stardate [REDACTED], using her main deflector to destroy the Discord Anomaly (Colorized)
(takes off mod hat)
This is a web forum. The discussions for the quest should be in the forum. All the discussion getting sucked away into a discord or group pm just makes the thread feel dead. 🥹
This isn't SB, you can spit out two line posts and meme chat here as long as it isn't disruptive.
This is a web forum. The discussions for the quest should be in the forum. All the discussion getting sucked away into a discord or group pm just makes the thread feel dead. 🥹
This isn't SB, you can spit out two line posts and meme chat here as long as it isn't disruptive.
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And besides, every time someone posts it pushes the quest up to the top of the quest subfolder, so active threads help bring in more players.
Well anyway, on the matter of discussing things here then.
As I've noted before the largest combatants in a war are likely to be stuck a lot in fleet actions. Which means they'll be stuck at the slower warp speeds there till enough spaecraft of several types can be made to create all Warp 8 fleets.
Also the current Warp 7 big ships are probably good enough tactically with refits. This can be seen as the Klingon weren't willing to engage the Federation if it had gone with a Warp 8 drive that could be refit. Meaning just the Warp 7 combatants were already considered adequately capable of fighting against them.
So one of the weaker arms right now is scouting, because the current Warp 7 craft used for scouting are basically obsolete versus the Klingon. What with them lacking as much ability to get away if spotted by them. This means the fleets would be hampered by this much less good scouting ability. Meaning it is harder to get Warp 7 vessels to the locations a Warp 8 Klingon fleet might be targeting on time. Knowing after the fact is a bit late after all. This is probably around about a frigate-destroyer sized vessel. Though I suppose a some what supersized one is always an option if one thinks the additional capability gain would help.
Another weakness is in fleet logistics, where you'd need a fairly quick medium class craft to take down any raiders trying to support the front line fleet. With out this the fleets ability to operate in heavily contested space would become greatly impaired. It is hard to fight if you can't get enough fuel and torpedoes, etc to keep going. This is probably around a destroyer-light cruiser like size. Maybe you could some how combine it with a scouting ability as well? In which case you could unify it in to a singular new class which can be made in large numbers.
As added side benefit this kind of class would be made in larger numbers, which might help some what delay Klingon operations as apparently Warp 8 speeds is what they care most about here. And a few large vessels won't be seen much by them, but scouts and logistics protection craft would be highly visible and make clear the Federation was rapidly transitioning.
And then after you get those two classes or a singular combined class, you'd want a some what heavier asset that can fight stronger enemies more economically. Preferably first one that would be allowed and employed in independent operational uses rather then be stuck permanently in a fleet. Such a class could be attached to a fleet but also be released for independent operations. A craft used like that would typically be a larger cruiser class, though short of the biggest ships as such. A medium/heavy cruiser basically.
Only after these classes are filled does it really make sense to upgrade the heaviest assets, as before that they effectively with in fleet operations will struggle to do nearly as much better as one would like as refit Warp 7 vessels. Which obviously can take most weapon, shield, thruster, armor or any other upgrades aside of the warp drive, even if of course there will be limitations to what their space frame can do compared to a dedicated design.
Based on this with two design bureaus the basic framework of a warp 8 fleet could be achieved in two development cycles. The first perhaps to develop a scout/anti-raid type ship in the destroyer-light cruiser size. And a medium/heavy/armored cruiser like craft for more capable fleet independent operations. So as to get the most out of the Warp 8 engine immediately and allow the Warp 7 fleets to be able to operate more effectively. Followed in the second design cycle by replacing the explorer and heavy combatant craft. In this order it would give more time to test out the Warp 8 technology and other new technology one wants to fold in to a true next generation large craft.
That's currently what seems to make the most sense to me. Because in the end one needs combat effectiveness in a war from the start of the conflict, not years in after taking tremendous casualties.
As I've noted before the largest combatants in a war are likely to be stuck a lot in fleet actions. Which means they'll be stuck at the slower warp speeds there till enough spaecraft of several types can be made to create all Warp 8 fleets.
Also the current Warp 7 big ships are probably good enough tactically with refits. This can be seen as the Klingon weren't willing to engage the Federation if it had gone with a Warp 8 drive that could be refit. Meaning just the Warp 7 combatants were already considered adequately capable of fighting against them.
So one of the weaker arms right now is scouting, because the current Warp 7 craft used for scouting are basically obsolete versus the Klingon. What with them lacking as much ability to get away if spotted by them. This means the fleets would be hampered by this much less good scouting ability. Meaning it is harder to get Warp 7 vessels to the locations a Warp 8 Klingon fleet might be targeting on time. Knowing after the fact is a bit late after all. This is probably around about a frigate-destroyer sized vessel. Though I suppose a some what supersized one is always an option if one thinks the additional capability gain would help.
Another weakness is in fleet logistics, where you'd need a fairly quick medium class craft to take down any raiders trying to support the front line fleet. With out this the fleets ability to operate in heavily contested space would become greatly impaired. It is hard to fight if you can't get enough fuel and torpedoes, etc to keep going. This is probably around a destroyer-light cruiser like size. Maybe you could some how combine it with a scouting ability as well? In which case you could unify it in to a singular new class which can be made in large numbers.
As added side benefit this kind of class would be made in larger numbers, which might help some what delay Klingon operations as apparently Warp 8 speeds is what they care most about here. And a few large vessels won't be seen much by them, but scouts and logistics protection craft would be highly visible and make clear the Federation was rapidly transitioning.
And then after you get those two classes or a singular combined class, you'd want a some what heavier asset that can fight stronger enemies more economically. Preferably first one that would be allowed and employed in independent operational uses rather then be stuck permanently in a fleet. Such a class could be attached to a fleet but also be released for independent operations. A craft used like that would typically be a larger cruiser class, though short of the biggest ships as such. A medium/heavy cruiser basically.
Only after these classes are filled does it really make sense to upgrade the heaviest assets, as before that they effectively with in fleet operations will struggle to do nearly as much better as one would like as refit Warp 7 vessels. Which obviously can take most weapon, shield, thruster, armor or any other upgrades aside of the warp drive, even if of course there will be limitations to what their space frame can do compared to a dedicated design.
Based on this with two design bureaus the basic framework of a warp 8 fleet could be achieved in two development cycles. The first perhaps to develop a scout/anti-raid type ship in the destroyer-light cruiser size. And a medium/heavy/armored cruiser like craft for more capable fleet independent operations. So as to get the most out of the Warp 8 engine immediately and allow the Warp 7 fleets to be able to operate more effectively. Followed in the second design cycle by replacing the explorer and heavy combatant craft. In this order it would give more time to test out the Warp 8 technology and other new technology one wants to fold in to a true next generation large craft.
That's currently what seems to make the most sense to me. Because in the end one needs combat effectiveness in a war from the start of the conflict, not years in after taking tremendous casualties.
Scouting is a traditional role for cruisers, and one that would align well with our next explorer being cruiser grade/a Connie equivalent (since many of the characteristics of a scout also are favourable for an exploratory vessel).