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KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
I want a triple-engine Explorer to succeed the Sagarmatha! Even if it's 'supposed to be the Connie'. Then it'll look like more like the Federation-class...
Edit: Apparently it's a quad
Unless this ends up being a triple-engine beauty.
Edit: Apparently it's a quad
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NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@Sayle just so you know there's an error in the top-down view of the Halley, the forward cargo bays are on the equator of the orb and positioned lower than the rear cargo bays, due to this only one aztec panels worth of cargo bay door should be visible for them compared to the rear cargo bay's two but in the graphic both have the same amount of cargo bay door visible from above.
Triple nacelles lend themselves towards endurance (even if not quite as much as quad designs, though they should be cheaper) and if we are going all 'explorer battlecruiser' that's something that'd be quite useful.
Explorers spend a lot of time exploring the unknown beyond the borders. That's a really bad place and time to have problems with the warp drive. So I would feel better if the first warp 8 ship design isn't an explorer. Let's prove out the new core layout and engines in a design that will spend more time in places where help is ready at hand to assist with resolving all the likely teething issues of such a radical change.
Also the thread seems to do a good job designing little ships.
Also the thread seems to do a good job designing little ships.
That's a good point, we made quite a good showing of reusing the Saga saucer towards the end of a technological/design era, imagine what we (and SanFran) could do if we hit it at the start of a new paradigm!
Edit: that does remind me, though, the Saga saucer was the same diameter as a refit Connie's!
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After the latest discussion regarding the viability of battleships I decided to revisit the Thunderchild's first battle.
In the opening engagement the Thunderchild tanks the entire Romulan fleet plus Outpost's alpha strike and doesn't lose any critical systems or weapons while killing a Warbird and the Outpost itself in exchange (this probably saved a Stingray or two from being killed at the very start).
It then kills a further 3 Warbirds, 2 in cooperation with the Stingrays and one on it's lonesome along with disabling another Warbird before it's incapacitated but retains enough functionality to be able to repair itself enough to take part in another fight a week later (Engineering 7 coming in clutch).
It's final kill tally is 4 Warbirds and an Outpost plus a disabled Warbird.
This was achieved despite lacking shields (polarized hull sucks for big ships since each section can be overwhelmed unlike shields), having outnumbered and lackluster support ships (the Stingray's an old policing vessel that was militarized rather than a purpose built warship), and being the main target of the Romulan fleet for much of the battle.
For reference the Skate which was it's contemporary but as a cheap combat frigate still costed roughly 1/3 of a Thunderchild (82 vs 28) and I highly doubt 3 Skates would have done anywhere near as well.
Even if more Skates could be fielded you'd still be looking at far more disabled/destroyed ships as casualties would have been inevitable with how many ships were involved and unlike the Thunderchild the disabled ones wouldn't have been able to repair themselves without support ships.
I also forgot how useful those Fabrication facilities turned out to be.
While I always remembered the Thunderchild being extremely tanky and hard hitting I forgot how there didn't seem to be any indication that any other ship or repair dock was involved with repairing it despite the downright brutal beating it took.
With the way things are looking with the Hailey and the fact that our next flagship explorer is likely to have Fabrication facilities we might be able to straight up perform enmass onsite resurrection of crippled ships just from feeding the Fabricators battlefield wreckage.
Despite being outnumbered (Thunderchild + 8 Stingrays Vs 12 Warbirds + Outpost) and somewhat out-teched (no shields but Romulans only had nuclear torpedos) the Thunderchild really carried the engagement.
In the opening engagement the Thunderchild tanks the entire Romulan fleet plus Outpost's alpha strike and doesn't lose any critical systems or weapons while killing a Warbird and the Outpost itself in exchange (this probably saved a Stingray or two from being killed at the very start).
It then kills a further 3 Warbirds, 2 in cooperation with the Stingrays and one on it's lonesome along with disabling another Warbird before it's incapacitated but retains enough functionality to be able to repair itself enough to take part in another fight a week later (Engineering 7 coming in clutch).
It's final kill tally is 4 Warbirds and an Outpost plus a disabled Warbird.
This was achieved despite lacking shields (polarized hull sucks for big ships since each section can be overwhelmed unlike shields), having outnumbered and lackluster support ships (the Stingray's an old policing vessel that was militarized rather than a purpose built warship), and being the main target of the Romulan fleet for much of the battle.
For reference the Skate which was it's contemporary but as a cheap combat frigate still costed roughly 1/3 of a Thunderchild (82 vs 28) and I highly doubt 3 Skates would have done anywhere near as well.
Even if more Skates could be fielded you'd still be looking at far more disabled/destroyed ships as casualties would have been inevitable with how many ships were involved and unlike the Thunderchild the disabled ones wouldn't have been able to repair themselves without support ships.
I also forgot how useful those Fabrication facilities turned out to be.
While I always remembered the Thunderchild being extremely tanky and hard hitting I forgot how there didn't seem to be any indication that any other ship or repair dock was involved with repairing it despite the downright brutal beating it took.
With the way things are looking with the Hailey and the fact that our next flagship explorer is likely to have Fabrication facilities we might be able to straight up perform enmass onsite resurrection of crippled ships just from feeding the Fabricators battlefield wreckage.
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Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
yeah, part of the reason why I want to do an Explorer first is to start in on the "recycle the saucer/other bits of the hull" thing as just a Thing That Starfleet Does™, because parts commonality good.
I would really like to do an Explorer, then a light-ish cruiser on the same saucer, then a science vessel that's the Explorer Engineering Hull with a different saucer on it. Edit: And then possibly a second lighter ship with said saucer, too. just get things to the point where we produce like 1-3 saucer and engineering hulls and then mix, match and modify them to make like a dozen different ship designs, because LOGISTICS!
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
[X] Fabrication Workshops (+12 Engineering) [Fabrication]
Honestly, I kinda want to do a sister-class for this ship, where we go Shuttles and Medical? Most of the design work for this is already done, and it's literally just filling in the bulk empty spaces of the hull.
Honestly, I kinda want to do a sister-class for this ship, where we go Shuttles and Medical? Most of the design work for this is already done, and it's literally just filling in the bulk empty spaces of the hull.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
It should also be noted that what finally killed the Thunderchild was a lost nacelle and its inability to go to warp with only one nacelle forcing us to scuttle it. It was mission killed due to lack of mobility but during the battle it was still combat effective even after losing the nacelle, its just that once the battle was over it couldn't go anywhere. The Thunderchild was so tough the Romulans couldn't properly destroy it so we had to finish the job for them.
StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
I imagine if we brought up the idea in our presentation of the Halley Project, that Starfleet might actually seriously consider it. Two starship designs for the effort of one? Who wouldn't like that?
TBF it wasn't just the Thunderchild. The three NXs that led the other force each had their own workshop too, though some of those were likely directed to fixing up that one NX that got damaged. Even assuming they got split half and half, two workshops to do an okay patch on one big ship is not that bad a ratio.
And now we have the ability to affect the sort of repairs that would let her limp back to starbase, or potentially even tow her back (depending on what sort of auxiliary options we get) at warp.
- Location
- USA
[X] Fabrication Workshops (+12 Engineering) [Fabrication]
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There's a potential synergy between the cargo pod and the fabrication workshops, the cargo pod is just long enough to store a Type-3 nacelle and the fabrication workshops could manufacture the components needed to repair the pylon and attach the new nacelle and our shuttlecraft swarm can do the engineering work of actually connecting the nacelle. We won't have to lose a ship to a lost nacelle ever again as long as there's a Halley with a spare nacelle in its cargo pod nearby ready to help.
Indeed, though I'm still keeping all my fingers crossed the rest of the sublight engine rolls are at least not bad.
Considering it's been implied a war might be coming up with in as little as 14 years. This might mean we might only be able to get literally one design in before combat starts, as these designs seem like they can take 8 years or so?And considering our entire fleet is warp 7 right now, this basically means one needs to decide which role in the fleet need warp 8 capability first.
The heavy combatants in this are probably not to badly impacted by less speed, as they'll tend to be part of larger fleet actions and often enough be slowed by the slower elements in the fleet. So a warp 8 engine there would not seem to make much difference quickly. And would seem to imply if a heavy was designed then much of the war might be fought with a heavy that can not often employ its speed, not many heavies would be ordered in peace time. Meaning much of the war would probably have to be fought at warp 7 by most of the fleet most of the time. The impact of a Warp 8 engine on the overall development of the war seems to be heavily marginalized by this.
Meanwhile the lights and mediums are more often also in lone or small formations. This means they are far more suitable for many of the raiding, intercepts and rapid deployment to places under attack. Smalls and Mediums are also made in substantially larger numbers, thus can be expected to be dispersed enough to make the new warp 8 drive get the most use as quickly as possible.
As such on a role basis first indications are we should create a small or medium spacecraft, so that we can as rapidly as possible start transitioning the main bulk of the fleet to warp 8, as well as aid the parts of the fleet that need a warp 8 engine the first to fulfill their roles the most effectively.
Beyond this so far we can tell from the Halley's design period, we currently do not have a next gen phaser that was even remotely far enough along to be considered on a spacecraft. So possibly they aren't even at the theoretical level yet. So there is a fairly reasonable chance we can't expect a major firepower increase for the next design either as we probably shouldn't risk an experimental or theoretical highly expense design for something needed to be made in sufficient numbers it will help in battles and where we can not afford a failure. This would be a further demerit against a large class design, as that means it won't even be able to leverage much more firepower then the previous warp 7 ships either. And it implies that perhaps the larger ships should wait for the design cycle after the upcoming one.
We do know that a modest shield upgrade is coming though, as a prototype version was available this cycle and presumably that will reach deployment levels for the next cycle. So presumably what ever next ship comes will use this next gen shield.
Based on this there is a chance the next design cycle will only allow heavy ships to improve their durability with new hull material and the next gen shield. Which is of course far from nothing, but makes them fall a little short of a true generational leap and more of a half step in tactical gain.
In comparison a light to medium ship might have with some luck allowing, a unique opportunity to leverage a next generation engine for supreme tactical maneuverability combined with strategic maneuverability. Allowing one to absolutely maximize their strengths. While the improved hull and shields would let their survivability increase enough to have pretty good chances to engage opponents successfully even with current gen weapons in frontal engagements and even perhaps be able to get in to their blind spots now and then for devastating effect even with current gen weaponry.
Based on all this, everything indicates that light or medium class spacecraft would be the most impactful decision and would be the most able to leverage the currently available technologies to the greatest degree. So basically anything from frigate to light/medium cruisers.
Beyond all this, presumably by this point much of the engineering knowledge from the last war with Kzin and their client races has been absorbed... Presumably there was a lot of knowledge in that on how to make the fastest of psosible spaceframes in that, and with the recent breakthroughs in engines and better hull material, it might be possible to come closer to their kinds of speeds then one would normally think possible. If the Federation wanted to further that branch of engineering, this would probably be the point of time to do that. One can wonder, can one achieve or atleast what the Kzin could not properly do with their more lackluster technology?
PS, I do think there is something highly amusing in the idea of a Federation starship being able to speed drift around a Klingon Bird of Prey. It would truly be an unexpected turn of events.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
On the other hand, there's an argument for going to the larger vessel first because the smaller one could easily be rolled out in wartime if we needed to (we built basically all the old Skates in like the last six months of the Romulan War for example, though we probably aren't going to have that kind of surge capacity again until replicators are a thing given the creep upward in size), but we'll see what happens when we get done with the Hally.
There is also San Francisco to consider; simply because we elect to build a large vessel doesn't necessarily mean that a small one isn't going to be made.
There is also San Francisco to consider; simply because we elect to build a large vessel doesn't necessarily mean that a small one isn't going to be made.
Endorfinator
Awkwardly Social
- Location
- California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- california
[X] Fabrication Workshops (+12 Engineering) [Fabrication]
Indeed, it's hard to predict exactly what the other yard will do before the next design round comes up to tell us. And you'd have to hope they optimize the design as one wants as well. And having two light/medium designs made in numbers would obviously have more impact then one light/medium and one big. Especially as the fleet compositions and the lacking weapon technology seem to indicate that next design round big craft may still be some what stifled in firepower increases and inability to make free use of their high warp factors in larger fleets.
So even with the idea of long lead times... how much would it really matter? How many would even actually ordered in the relevant time frame? Past orders were usually something like 6 or so I think? It's not like the Federation will give it a war time order after all, so you'd just get a few of them and then any more would be limited by build time requirements in the war.
Also if there are insufficient good intercept and quick reaction craft during the early parts of the war in the now far more spread out Federation, that will probably have substantially more consequences then in the last war. If the Klingon get in deep, even the larger refueling yards could come under attack after all. And the glimpse we got implied there would be a big battle at one of the core worlds, which means they got very deep.
All this in my mind brings up the question if one shouldn't maximize preparation for attritional warfare over a very wide front, rather then focus to much on a few rare large spacecraft that can't be everywhere and potentially at times stuck probably in warp 7 fleets.
Still, this is just my personal strategic assessment on the matter. There could easily be relevant factor that I overlooked, or something I misinterpreted. Maybe large ships can trade better against small highly maneuverable ones then I think or so.
Edit, after thinking about it a bit more, something else stood out to me. The only difference between this timeline and the original is that Warp 8 spacecraft were introduced later here. Which means the Klingon willingness to start war with the Federation is substantially linked to how many fast Federation starship they can see. Possibly because higher speeds from their opponents limit their potential to strike at will. As such, if one wants any chance of delaying the war, or at least making it a shorter war, one probably needs as many Warp 8 spacecraft as soon as possible. Because that seems to be the only real change that seems to matter here, armor/hull and speed wise the current Federation is probably superior to itself in the original time line after all, and weapon and shield wise probably on par.
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@Endorfinator , I personally don't think there's any need to be so provocative by comparing someone to Trump, or pick on anyone participating in this quest.