For a long time, at least into second edition at the earliest (and I won't swear to even that) Tiamat was the only game in town, and after that, the other Evil Dragon Gods pay HER Tribute, so if their worshipers come up short on the tribute, they are still screwed.
I doubt Hextor or The Burning Hate give an ice cream's survival in the Plane of Fire about Tiamat, so go with one of them, or maybe a Neutral god, since they take Evil followers.

Also, in D&D, Salt isn't currency, and Tiamat only takes precious metals, gems, jewelry, and magic items. Salt's not worth spit in Hell.......
Salt is a trade good and can be used directly as money. Use it to buy gems and stuff. Or just eat it all and become a god yourself.

Even worse, salt is a consumed component for some spells. And not even high end spells either. For the most part, salt is used in low level spells. As for why salt isn't valuable in D&D, well, you do have the Wall of Salt spell. That alone explains it quite nicely. The scroll is likely more valuable then the salt it produces.
A wall of salt spell is 5 ft x 5 ft per level and 1 in thick per level. Minimum caster level is 7, meaning it's 7 x 5 ft x 5 ft x 7 in, so think of it as a 49 in thick 5 ft x 5 ft square. That's 176,400 cu in. A cu in of salt weighs 0.08 lbs, according to Volume to Weight conversions for common substances and materials. At minimum CL, the scroll produces 14,112 lbs of salt, which is exactly equal to 14,112 lbs of silver, which means the salt it produces is worth 1,411.2 gp, which is slightly more than 2x the worth of the scroll.

Increasing the caster level of the scroll increases the worth of its salt output immensely.

So, yeah.
 
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Salt might be a trade good, but it's not a particularly valuable one. In 2nd edition salt costs 1 silver piece per pound. From a quick check (using hero lab), salt looks to be so low value in 3.5 that it's not even listed for sale. Instead, it's just assumed to be in your spell component pouch, and you restock it periodically at such low cost it's not worth tracking. Pathfinder 1e again doesn't even list regular salt as something you can buy. It's just assumed you have it on hand if you need it.

I doubt Hextor or The Burning Hate give an ice cream's survival in the Plane of Fire about Tiamat, so go with one of them, or maybe a Neutral god, since they take Evil followers.

Salt is a trade good and can be used directly as money. Use it to buy gems and stuff. Or just eat it all and become a god yourself.


A wall of salt spell is 5 ft x 5 ft x 1 in per level. Minimum caster level is 7, meaning it's 7 x 5 ft x 5 ft x 7 in, so think of it as a 49 in thick 5 ft x 5 ft square. That's 176,400 cu in. A cu in of salt weighs 0.08 lbs, acording to Volume to Weight conversions for common substances and materials. At minimum CL, the scroll produces 14,112 lbs of salt, which is exactly equal to 14,112 lbs of silver, which means the salt it produces is worth 1,411.2 gp, which is slightly more than 2x the worth of the scroll.

So, yeah.

And you are probably not going to be getting that much from selling the salt. Assuming of course you carry around the entire amount with you until you can find buyers. Which again, you're probably not going to do because it's too much to carry with you, even with a bag of holding. Unless you own a salt mine and are using the spell to ensure your mine doesn't get tapped out, salt's not a particularly good trade good in D&D. Even worse, if you try paying for goods with chunks of salt, it's probably not going to go well.
 
I doubt Hextor or The Burning Hate give an ice cream's survival in the Plane of Fire about Tiamat, so go with one of them, or maybe a Neutral god, since they take Evil followers.

In first and second edition, regardless of faith, a non-human in a "standard" setting would go to their Racial Deity upon death, and not worshiping an "approved" god would guarantee damnation. For Evil Dragons, Tiamat was literally the only game in town

Salt is a trade good and can be used directly as money. Use it to buy gems and stuff. Or just eat it all and become a god yourself.

Except in D&D, salt is USELESS as currency and lacks the power to count as part of a hoard. The only reason it has a high price in the game books is that, as explained in earlier editions, the areas where Adventurers are active are experiencing a "Gold Rush" Economy; the prices on everything, but especially food and drink, are inflated to an insane degree, and no merchant is foolish enough to NOT charge rich adventurers through the nose for everything.

As a rule of thumb, everything that can be considered consumable, including salt, is probably being sold for 10 to 15 times it's actual value. So, at best, Salt is worth as much as a Copper per pound, and far less then that to those like Dragons that have no need for the stuff. So, as a contribution to a hoard, figure it's worth a gold per ton or so, if that.
 
Salt might be a trade good, but it's not a particularly valuable one. In 2nd edition salt costs 1 silver piece per pound. From a quick check (using hero lab), salt looks to be so low value in 3.5 that it's not even listed for sale. Instead, it's just assumed to be in your spell component pouch, and you restock it periodically at such low cost it's not worth tracking. Pathfinder 1e again doesn't even list regular salt as something you can buy. It's just assumed you have it on hand if you need it.
Salt is worth exactly its weight in silver, and it can be used exactly as money would be, as it's a trade good, and the rules specify that it can be used as currency.

And you are probably not going to be getting that much from selling the salt. Assuming of course you carry around the entire amount with you until you can find buyers. Which again, you're probably not going to do because it's too much to carry with you, even with a bag of holding. Unless you own a salt mine and are using the spell to ensure your mine doesn't get tapped out, salt's not a particularly good trade good in D&D. Even worse, if you try paying for goods with chunks of salt, it's probably not going to go well.
Using salt as money depreciates the salt exactly as much as using silver would depreciate silver. It's like refusing to take silver bars instead of silver coins in trade for your goods, even though you could use the silver (or in this case, salt) to buy stuff yourself, since it's worth every bit as much to other people as silver is.

In first and second edition, regardless of faith, a non-human in a "standard" setting would go to their Racial Deity upon death, and not worshiping an "approved" god would guarantee damnation. For Evil Dragons, Tiamat was literally the only game in town
Not the case in 3rd edition.

Also, whatever god you worship would have some very severe problems with another god stealing his (or her, or its) worshiper, especially such a powerful one.

Wars have started for less, and Tiamat is NOT the strongest god(dess) out there.

Except in D&D, salt is USELESS as currency and lacks the power to count as part of a hoard. The only reason it has a high price in the game books is that, as explained in earlier editions, the areas where Adventurers are active are experiencing a "Gold Rush" Economy; the prices on everything, but especially food and drink, are inflated to an insane degree, and no merchant is foolish enough to NOT charge rich adventurers through the nose for everything.

As a rule of thumb, everything that can be considered consumable, including salt, is probably being sold for 10 to 15 times it's actual value. So, at best, Salt is worth as much as a Copper per pound, and far less then that to those like Dragons that have no need for the stuff. So, as a contribution to a hoard, figure it's worth a gold per ton or so, if that.
It's currency in and of itself. Even if it wouldn't make for good hoardstuff, it can buy hoardstuff just fine.

SRD said:
Wealth Other Than Coins
Merchants commonly exchange trade goods without using currency. As a means of comparison, some trade goods are detailed below.

Table: Trade Goods

5 gp​
One pound of salt or silver

Selling Loot
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price.

Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
 
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Using salt as money depreciates the salt exactly as much as using silver would depreciate silver. It's like refusing to take silver bars instead of silver coins in trade for your goods, even though you could use the silver (or in this case, salt) to buy stuff yourself, since it's worth every bit as much to other people as silver would.
Except in D&D, Salt Was Never Used As Currency. It was occasionally used for Barter, just as a haunch of meat or a wheel of cheese would be. It Has No Value as Currency IN THIS SETTING. Ergo, if a Dragon tried to pay tribute to Tiamat in Salt, she would use it to season the Dragon's corps before finding a new and imaginative torment for their soul. Possibly one involving salt in open wounds......
 
Except in D&D, Salt Was Never Used As Currency. It was occasionally used for Barter, just as a haunch of meat or a wheel of cheese would be. It Has No Value as Currency IN THIS SETTING. Ergo, if a Dragon tried to pay tribute to Tiamat in Salt, she would use it to season the Dragon's corps before finding a new and imaginative torment for their soul. Possibly one involving salt in open wounds......
I wonder, would a life-sized statue of Tiamat made out of salt crystal count as a tribute or as an insult?
 
Except in D&D, Salt Was Never Used As Currency. It was occasionally used for Barter, just as a haunch of meat or a wheel of cheese would be. It Has No Value as Currency IN THIS SETTING. Ergo, if a Dragon tried to pay tribute to Tiamat in Salt, she would use it to season the Dragon's corps before finding a new and imaginative torment for their soul. Possibly one involving salt in open wounds......
In most settings, salt is usable as currency. I even quoted the relevant passage above.

And as I said, while it might not make good hoardstuff, it can be used to buy hoardstuff.

I wonder, would a life-sized statue of Tiamat made out of salt crystal count as a tribute or as an insult?
That's assalt, that is.
 
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Go ahead, try paying the innkeeper or tavern with a few pounds of salt in your next D&D campaign. That's unlikely to go over well. The general store or a wandering merchant may pay full price for the salt. But if you keep flooding the local market via Wall of Salt, expect them to pay less for your goods. After all, the merchant wants to make a profit. And that's not happening if his wagon or store is full of nothing but hundreds of pounds of salt that he can't find a buyer for. In fact, despite what the DMG might say about trade goods, the merchant is not going to pay you full price for your salt. This is because once again, the merchant wants to make a profit. And if he's selling salt for exactly as much as he paid for it, there is no profit being made. In fact, he's losing money because that salt is taking up space he could be using to stock wares which will make a profit. Only if there's an equal exchange of goods being made are you likely to get full value from the salt or any other trade good. And that is only if it's something the merchant you're haggling with feels they can make a profit with. D&D is not Fallout.

The way to profit from sales of trade goods is to go to an area where they have low value and buy them, then go someplace where it's a scarce resource and sell. You make a profit and the merchant also makes a profit because he sells the trade good for more then he paid you.

Speaking of Fallout, even there you don't get full value when you trade goods. The item you are trading might be worth 8 caps for example when you are selling or trading it, but to buy that same item might cost 15 caps or more.
 
All of these arguments for why you can't sell salt make me wonder how salt mines manage to sell salt. :confused:
Well, if you've got wizards throwing around wall of salt spells, the easy answer is: They don't.

...Or, alternatively, they've got a powerful trade guild and can afford to put out hits on wizards who start cutting into their profits.

Pick one.
 
Well, if you've got wizards throwing around wall of salt spells, the easy answer is: They don't.

...Or, alternatively, they've got a powerful trade guild and can afford to put out hits on wizards who start cutting into their profits.

Pick one.
Yeeeeah.

"I'm gonna send some of the boys to go rough up the being who can reshape reality on a whim and call up literal armies with a few spells."

I'm sure that will go over well.

Also @FaerieKnight79, salt is literally a currency, since it can be used to buy stuff directly. It's basically a substitute for silver.

Unless we use the same arguments for things like gold pieces (in which case, the entire economic system of D&D doesn't work at all, not even a little), there's no argument worth making against it. At least, not RAW. Really, the only differences between salt and silver are A.) salt can be eaten, so it has an actual use, and B.) it can be created via wall of silver salt.
 
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All of these arguments for why you can't sell salt make me wonder how salt mines manage to sell salt. :confused:

By having costs lower then what they make selling their wares, same way any other enterprise makes a profit. No merchant is going to spend the same amount buying a good that they are selling the good for. There's no profit in doing that.

Let's say the salt mine produces 20 pounds of salt an hour, and miners work for 8 hours a day five days a week. The mine has 12 miners working for it, six per shift and two shifts. That's 16 hours of production a day, or 320 pounds of salt produced a day. Let's assume the mine sells the salt for 5 copper per pound. That means in one week the owner makes 1120 silver, or 120 gold from sales. The miners get paid one silver per day each. This means that in one week 60 silver, or 6 gold is spent paying the miners. Also subtract costs to transport and costs for materials used to brace the mine. Oh, and replacing picks when needed. This tells you the profit the mine is making. If the miners are making 3 silver a day (which is more reasonable, probably) that's still only 25 gold spent on wages for the miners.

Also, salt is literally a currency, since it can be used to buy stuff directly. It's basically a substitute for silver.

Unless we use the same arguments for things like gold pieces (in which case, the entire economic system of D&D doesn't work at all, not even a little), there's no argument worth making against it.

No, it's a trade good. There's a bit of a difference. A currency is minted and backed by the ruling government. Trade goods are goods that have accepted value. Your cattle might have an estimated value of 10 gold a head. But unless you can convince the person you're trading with, you're not going to get that much value from them. And you're not going to be able to walk up to a merchant and give them three calves for 30 gold worth of products or services without some serious haggling. Especially if the merchant doesn't normally deal in livestock.

While the core books don't really go into it, the currency in one kingdom may well be worthless in the neighboring kingdom. But you may be able to exchange your "worthless" coins for coin of the realm, at a loss.

Merchants commonly exchange trade goods without using currency

This says nothing about merchants being required to accept trade goods in leu of currency. In fact, you try paying a blacksmith with salt or bags of rice, the blacksmith is likely to ask you what he (or she) is suppose to do with that and then demand you pay in gold.

A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.

This again doesn't say every merchant and tradesman must accept a trade good as if it was currency for the full listed market value in the book, just that it's easy to find a buyer willing to pay the local market value. Which may not be the same as what you will pay if you buy the trade good from said merchant. Trade goods are things you might be expected to buy cheaply in one area, then sell for more in another area that has a shortage of that product.

So what you're saying is, I don't have to go to the XP; the XP comes to me, sets off all of my contingencies and traps, and walks right into my armies of pre-called critters.

Excellent.

Unless it turns out that you are the BBEG, and the adventurers have been hired to take you out because you're destroying the local economy. In which case, you watch in horror as that group of rag tag but surprisingly competent adventurers tear through all your defenses like they weren't there before coming after you.
 
By having costs lower then what they make selling their wares, same way any other enterprise makes a profit. No merchant is going to spend the same amount buying a good that they are selling the good for. There's no profit in doing that.
In the case of salt, it's just as liquid between the seller and buyer as it is between that buyer as a seller and the next buyer. Silver doesn't lose any value between one transaction and the next, and salt likewise is just as liquid of a currency from the previous sale as it is for the next purchase.

It might not be government-issued, but salt is still just as valuable as silver.

The D&D economy doesn't devalue something just because there's a lot of it; otherwise, spending dozens of thousands of gold pieces on magic items wouldn't work. Flooding an economy with that much money would mean that gold would simply cease to have value, which would wreck the whole game. Salt is identical in function (except you can eat it, if you want).

Let's say the salt mine produces 20 pounds of salt an hour, and miners work for 8 hours a day five days a week. The mine has 12 miners working for it, six per shift and two shifts. That's 16 hours of production a day, or 320 pounds of salt produced a day. Let's assume the mine sells the salt for 5 copper per pound. That means in one week the owner makes 1120 silver, or 120 gold from sales. The miners get paid one silver per day each. This means that in one week 60 silver, or 6 gold is spent paying the miners. Also subtract costs to transport and costs for materials used to brace the mine. Oh, and replacing picks when needed. This tells you the profit the mine is making. If the miners are making 3 silver a day (which is more reasonable, probably) that's still only 25 gold spent on wages for the miners.
Salt sells for 5 gp per pound, just like silver, so none of that is accurate.

No, it's a trade good. There's a bit of a difference. A currency is minted and backed by the ruling government. Trade goods are goods that have accepted value. Your cattle might have an estimated value of 10 gold a head. But unless you can convince the person you're trading with, you're not going to get that much value from them. And you're not going to be able to walk up to a merchant and give them three calves for 30 gold worth of products or services without some serious haggling. Especially if the merchant doesn't normally deal in livestock.
Sure, it's a trade good, just like bars of silver. That means that it can be spent just like money, because it is money. It just happens to not be minted coins.

Currency is anything that can be used in trade for something else, and trade goods in D&D are usable as currency. And deflation and inflation don't exist, else the magic item trade also couldn't exist.

This says nothing about merchants being required to accept trade goods in leu of currency. In fact, you try paying a blacksmith with salt or bags of rice, the blacksmith is likely to ask you what he (or she) is suppose to do with that and then demand you pay in gold.
"You use it to buy something else you want. It's worth X gold pieces, after all."

Remember these aren't modern day economies.

But even now, you can't typically spend "a handful of rubies" at your local Walmart and expect to get anywhere. However, if I were to offer you that handful of rubies in exchange for something you have that I want, are you generally going to say no*?


*Barring extreme sentimental value or other unusual situations, of course.

This again doesn't say every merchant and tradesman must accept a trade good as if it was currency for the full listed market value in the book, just that it's easy to find a buyer willing to pay the local market value. Which may not be the same as what you will pay if you buy the trade good from said merchant. Trade goods are things you might be expected to buy cheaply in one area, then sell for more in another area that has a shortage of that product.
Rules source on this?

Because as far as I can tell, "5 lbs of salt is worth 5 gold pieces." That's it.

Unless it turns out that you are the BBEG, and the adventurers have been hired to take you out because you're destroying the local economy. In which case, you watch in horror as that group of rag tag but surprisingly competent adventurers tear through all your defenses like they weren't there before coming after you.
There are ways to hit WAY above your weight class as a prepared wizard-type. Especially with all the "silver" you can (literally) eat. They're known as "Batman wizards" for a reason. I mean, there are ways to take out epic level monsters at level 1, if you know what you're doing. As an example, take Precocious Apprentice (Ray of Stupidity). Anything with a decently low ranged touch AC and an Int of 1 or 2 (which do exist, even in epic) is basically an auto-win. Of course, that's assuming you don't roll a nat 1.
 
There are ways to hit WAY above your weight class as a prepared wizard-type. Especially with all the "silver" you can (literally) eat. They're known as "Batman wizards" for a reason. I mean, there are ways to take out epic level monsters at level 1, if you know what you're doing. As an example, take Precocious Apprentice (Ray of Stupidity). Anything with a decently low ranged touch AC and an Int of 1 or 2 (which do exist, even in epic) is basically an auto-win. Of course, that's assuming you don't roll a nat 1.
That just means that you're the extra-tough boss the GM rolled out for his party of munchkins as a challenge, and you're going to be fighting against at least one other Batman wizard.
 
That just means that you're the extra-tough boss the GM rolled out for his party of munchkins as a challenge, and you're going to be fighting against at least one other Batman wizard.
...who is going to be fighting you on your home turf, which you have prepared specifically for that kind of thing.

Thing is, it should be nearly impossible to deal with a truly prepared wizard on his home turf. The dungeons et al in pre-prepared adventures are typically run by extremely incompetent people (or people who aren't spellcasters, aka, extremely incompetent people), else it'd be more like a fully Gygaxian Tomb of Horrors with every room a death trap (that doesn't affect the owner of the dungeon, of course), than anything else.

Imagine a dungeon run by Tucker's kobolds, only those kobolds have access to reality-warping magic.
 
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By having costs lower then what they make selling their wares, same way any other enterprise makes a profit. No merchant is going to spend the same amount buying a good that they are selling the good for. There's no profit in doing that.
I was more commenting on the fact that, if a wizard can't manage to set up a sales enterprise for his salt, how can anybody else?
 
The idea of having a conjured trade good ruin the economy is one many a DM have dealt with. Usually by having the conjured version lack some vital quality, and be easily identified. For instance, if that huge wall of salt turns out to be Lithium Fluoride instead of Sodium Chloride, and thus useless for just about everything salt is needed for, including as a spell component or as a needed addition to one's diet. Yes, someone tried to sell conjured salt in a campaign I was in, and this was the DM's response.

In general, if an item is created by magic, in a setting where magic is commonplace, then unless the fact that it's being created by magic makes it valuable, one can assume being conjured makes it worthless, and merchants will have ways of telling the difference.

Oh, and those prices in the books for Trade goods? Those are guidelines, and often inflated. The economy in a D&D setting, according to the second edition manuals, is of the same sort that saw eggs sell for a dollar each in the 1850's in California. They will not reflect actual value. Plus, if you want to compare to precious metals, then be aware the values of those are if anything depressed locally due to all the adventurers bringing in old coins and previously lost treasures. Adventurers routinely get ripped off for everything aside from basic weapons and armor, if only because they need those tools to keep bringing in the treasures and buy the inflated trade goods. For all the mystique involved, it's the merchants that are making the greatest profits from the adventures, not the adventurers.
 
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The D&D economy doesn't devalue something just because there's a lot of it; otherwise, spending dozens of thousands of gold pieces on magic items wouldn't work.
And this, here, is the disconnect. You're asserting that "Well of course this works because rules-as-written hand-waving." Everyone arguing with you is asserting "Of course this doesn't work because realism."
(As an aside, my personal assumption here is that the 'adventurer economy' works the same as the classic trickle-down economics: that is, if you plunk down a huge pile of gold to buy a thing from a rich merchant, then the rich merchants get richer and the average person in the town sees exactly none of that value in their day-to-day life.)

I, personally, tend to come down on the realism side of things, especially when people make a deliberate effort to break the game.

And when it comes down to it: wizards are smart. If there's a way to print unlimited monetary value from a few spells, either there are wizards already doing just that, or there's a good reason why wizards don't do that. As the average NPC wizard is quite clearly not in possession of unlimited funds, there must be a reason it's a bad idea.

What that reason is may vary by GM, from "conjured stuff isn't valuable" to "the merchant's guild hires assassins" to "the wizard's guild disapproves and is stronger than you are" to... whatever else. Pick your poison.
 
Um...I feel like the current discussion has gone on a fairly extreme tangent.

While you're all talking about salt and the D&D economy, Taylor and the others have learned about what is probably Ziz attacking Canberra. Question is, who's going to be joining the battle?

I honestly feel like Lisa will be sitting this one out. She literally just got her fluffy tails. If she's smart, she'll spend some time learning How Do I Kitsune before she joins an Endbringer battle.
 
Um...I feel like the current discussion has gone on a fairly extreme tangent.

While you're all talking about salt and the D&D economy, Taylor and the others have learned about what is probably Ziz attacking Canberra. Question is, who's going to be joining the battle?

I honestly feel like Lisa will be sitting this one out. She literally just got her fluffy tails. If she's smart, she'll spend some time learning How Do I Kitsune before she joins an Endbringer battle.
Agreed. Although, they may set her up with a video feed, and take advantage of her Thinker Power while keeping her safe.

I suspect Taylor will not be going; Danny isn't likely to let her, and she will be more valuable in the aftermath as a healer and doing S&R. If Amy goes, it will be as a Healer, not as a Dragon. Dinah, of course, isn't going to go.

A better question will be which Powers will make a play while everyone is looking at Canberra? Will Tiamat make a grab for Glory, possibly at Taylor's request? Will Bahamut step in to show her how it's done? Will the Yokai that's credited with the fall of imperial authority in feudal Japan make a young Drider an offer she would be quite unwilling to refuse?

Only time will tell......
 
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