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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Odd thought... that rune Thungi used in the last room feels like the Ulgu spell Eye of the Beholder combined with some kind of Fire magic based intensifier that makes greed grow rather than wrath or bravery (which is what the standard spell list does). And that got me thinking is there any advantage to getting a wizard to perform spells for us so we can see the magic moves?

Before we had any kind of magesight the answer was obviously no and, to be fair it might still be no, since we do not have the resolution to notice complex changes. But with the way standard rune-forging works an understanding of how something is done in nature helps with doing it with runes: if you want to make a rune that makes a faster wheel you have to understand how wheels work etc... Well isn't wizard magic the native form of all kinds of esoteric effects?
 
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DragonParadox said:
Odd thought... that rune Thungi used in the last room feels like the Ulgu spell Eye of the Beholder combined with some kind of combined with some kind of Fire magic based intensifier that makes greed grow rather than wrath or bravery (which is what the standard spell list does). And that got me thingking is there any advantage to getting a wizard to perform spells for us so we can see the magic moves?
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Agshi is about emotions. I presume it escalated the emotions by influencing a dawi. Like for one moment Snorri was greedy for the treasure, then angry. Good that we get the correct blessing that lets us see through most of the illusions.

Sorry, accidentally used different quote I forgot about I saved.
 
DragonParadox said:
Odd thought... that rune Thungi used in the last room feels like the Ulgu spell Eye of the Beholder combined with some kind of combined with some kind of Fire magic based intensifier that makes greed grow rather than wrath or bravery (which is what the standard spell list does). And that got me thingking is there any advantage to getting a wizard to perform spells for us so we can see the magic moves?
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As of right now humans haven't entered the picture. So no way to get any aspected mages; all we've got are elves that use Qyesh.
 
DragonParadox said:
Odd thought... that rune Thungi used in the last room feels like the Ulgu spell Eye of the Beholder combined with some kind of combined with some kind of Fire magic based intensifier that makes greed grow rather than wrath or bravery (which is what the standard spell list does). And that got me thingking is there any advantage to getting a wizard to perform spells for us so we can see the magic moves?

Before we had any kind of magesight the answer was obviously no and, to be fair it might still be no, since we do not have the resolution to notice complex changes. But with the way standard rune-forging works an understanding of how something is done in nature helps with doing it with runes: if you want to make a rune that makes a faster wheel you have to understand how wheels work etc... Well isn't wizard magic the native form of all kinds of esoteric effects?
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Rune of GreedBanner, TalismanicRuneUser stokes the greed of enemies in range, making them target the user to the detriment of tactics

It was probably just a more refined version of this rune.
 
In a post consternation world, it should be possible to make runes that exactly mimic a mage's spell. It's probably even possible to make a runestaff that can weave the winds like a mage would when used in conjunction with the windsight eye. We could either pay an elf to show us spells at that point or ask one of the Brana.
 
DragonParadox said:
Odd thought... that rune Thungi used in the last room feels like the Ulgu spell Eye of the Beholder combined with some kind of Fire magic based intensifier that makes greed grow rather than wrath or bravery (which is what the standard spell list does). And that got me thinking is there any advantage to getting a wizard to perform spells for us so we can see the magic moves?

Before we had any kind of magesight the answer was obviously no and, to be fair it might still be no, since we do not have the resolution to notice complex changes. But with the way standard rune-forging works an understanding of how something is done in nature helps with doing it with runes: if you want to make a rune that makes a faster wheel you have to understand how wheels work etc... Well isn't wizard magic the native form of all kinds of esoteric effects?
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Not until we learn the fundamental concepts of how runes manipulate magic. Snorri can't see inside a rune, even if he knew perfectly how magic should be manipulated to produce specific results it wouldn't tell him how to make a rune to replicate those same manipulations.
TempestK said:
As of right now humans haven't entered the picture. So no way to get any aspected mages; all we've got are elves that use Qyesh.
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Our book on Chamon was written by an elf who developed a arcane mark so he can only use that wind.
 
I wonder if snorri can figure out how to make a....would a rune of transparency make a metal plate invisible and let snorri see the magic occuring inside of it?
 
To contribute to current discussion but I have a feeling the key ironically enough lies in seeing Dhar clash with Qhyash. High magic is described as all 8 winds working in harmony, Dhar is described as unbalanced drawing of all 8 winds. It has been said multiple times that Snorri see's a Dhar as a whole, as if something should be there. So we can see balanced winds but not unbalanced, I have some private theories as to the relation of this to runecraft and deep magic but I am keeping those to myself. In being able to see unbalanced magic I believe that we will be able to see the work of so many things because as Dhar is described it is unbalanced but potent....

I had something to ask the whole group of readers of this wonderful story. I have been rereading and just hit the Saltbeard section of his doubt and shame about using those possibly unworthy as engineers on the ships, then with Rudil seeing the Slayer who was super young. I have no real way to ask except ask, I don't like seeing the slide of Dwarves into doubt and just as we did the younger's look to their elders. In the absence of the Ancestors the elders are supposed to be the guiding voice, and we are one that is heard across the Karaz Ankor, the elder who acts as a beardling in some eyes.
I would like to see Snorri weigh into it, would ask do you feel the same?
I imagine the grumbled wisdom of saying that any dwarf under 100 winters shaving his beard for failing is a fool, He is but an apprentice still, failing is expected, life is a journey to master and you are too young to be one.
With Saltbeard easing his pain, enabling him to give his students a true go rather than a "you'll have to do" attitude? This whole boat business is nonsense to a Elder such as we, but to you youngin's? Feh, go flail about the ocean, prove me right and show dwarfs conquer waves as well as mountains!! I don't know, it just seems like something Snorri would do, and I think it would be neat to see.
 
tri2 said:
I wonder if snorri can figure out how to make a....would a rune of transparency make a metal plate invisible and let snorri see the magic occuring inside of it?
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Plenty of caveats here, first of all, I haven't gotten the actual issue I was trying to bring up in the first place across. If magic needs to twist the winds into a figure 8, Snorri doesn't know what part of the rune would do that. Creating a grand catalogue of all runes that involve the twist, and then trying to identify shared components would be one step towards that, and the proposed transparency could be a part of the process, however this whole process is just describing one possible route to get to the end goal required: "How do runes work?"

Following on from that:
Depends if the magic is occurring inside the object rather than the inside the rune. Would give some answers to the Rule of Form question if so.

Would also require the rune to be working directly with the winds rather than converting it into a generic rune energy or Earthbound magic, which is definitely a possibility as we don't really expect a rune of fire to run out of gas if left in a asqhy-less environment.

Windsight isn't light. It could be transparent to the eye and still opaque to windsight, which I suspect would probably be the most likely result.

Oh and Snorri's going need a better eye, but I think just invent a better one can be assumed as another box in the to do list rather than a theoretical issue to overcome.
E:
hugo239111 said:
It has been said multiple times that Snorri see's a Dhar as a whole, as if something should be there
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Sorry I don't remember this, where did it say this?
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Plenty of caveats here, first of all, I haven't gotten the actual issue I was trying to bring up in the first place across. If magic needs to twist the winds into a figure 8, Snorri doesn't know what part of the rune would do that. Creating a grand catalogue of all runes that involve the twist, and then trying to identify shared components would be one step towards that, and the proposed transparency could be a part of the process, however this whole process is just describing one possible route to get to the end goal required: "How do runes work?"

Following on from that:
Depends if the magic is occurring inside the object rather than the inside the rune. Would give some answers to the Rule of Form question if so.

Would also require the rune to be working directly with the winds rather than converting it into a generic rune energy or Earthbound magic, which is definitely a possibility as we don't really expect a rune of fire to run out of gas if left in a asqhy-less environment.

Windsight isn't light. It could be transparent to the eye and still opaque to windsight, which I suspect would probably be the most likely result.

Oh and Snorri's going need a better eye, but I think just invent a better one can be assumed as another box in the to do list rather than a theoretical issue to overcome.
E:

Sorry I don't remember this, where did it say this?
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During the Autopsy of the Chimera was the most recent mention,
"Your Windsight eye gave a few hints as to what was going on you think. The organs themselves looked the same as their closest counterpart to your eye as well, but it was in the spaces and connections between the individual organs that made you pause. All the Winds were present in a Chimera in some capacity, as was the noticeable absence to your proto-windsight that was likely Dhar, but even with that foulness there the most prevalent by far was Ghur."

In my opinion because the eye isn't complete it can't follow pooling magic to it's natural conclusion. The reagent's we can see call to specific winds, like all things but we have can't perceive the winds when they mix together, part of the reason we have to rely on the eye to tell us when something is going wrong with a monolith is because we can only see it's effects on the wind. I liken it to how we perceive a black hole, we don't actually see it but rather the effect it has on it's surroundings. (That one happened the last time Master Yorri explained how to tap into the monoliths). Dhar is corrupting yet also the closest thing we get to the realm of the Aethyr on the physical plane. Then we could get into the minutiae behind the difference between Dhar and True Dhar, which I don't think serves a purpose on this matter. In essence Dhar is like gravity to magic, unseen but felt everywhere, something key to understanding it but extremely hard to understand for a rigid mindset.
 
Probably safe to assume that all plans are getting nuked with all the inspiration we're gonna get from the trials even before considering the possibility of what the glimril bar will unlock. It's a good thing, I look forward to really hitting the research trees when we're done with the trials.
 
Even so, I would not be surprised if Windsight is still granted some degree of priority. A number of our other researches are gated behind it. And while 10 Progress is a bit beyond our reach for a single turn of effort, even 3 AP into it each turn for the next two would complete it. And with all the inspiration from this, I would be very surprised if absolutely none of it went into Windsight. Snorri having prototyped it where Thungi would not manage it would be a major surprise.
 
catDreaming said:
Even so, I would not be surprised if Windsight is still granted some degree of priority. A number of our other researches are gated behind it. And while 10 Progress is a bit beyond our reach for a single turn of effort, even 3 AP into it each turn for the next two would complete it. And with all the inspiration from this, I would be very surprised if absolutely none of it went into Windsight. Snorri having prototyped it where Thungi would not manage it would be a major surprise.
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To me at least it would not be a surprised if Thungi knows nothing about Windsight. Barring the possibility that the Ancestors are absconding Old One students from Albion where would Thungi have ever had access to a friendly wizard to work on Windsight with?
 
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I also do not think Thungni had Windsight - he was a dwarf and would not have been born with it, and he had little to no known interaction with elves or other magic users. Therefore he would have to devise a theory of Magic based on what he knew and could observe. Furthermore, if we take a look at how these trials have gone at least two of them we solved in an unusual way specifically because of Windsight, where we got a look at internal workings of them and exploited that insight.
 
I think people are forgetting earthbound magic, it is stated to be present everywhere and the basis for the geomantic web that the Lizardmen have. Thungi was a son of Grungi and Valaya, both of whom based off everything with the Old Ones and them teaching so many as it went most likely were if not taught by the Old Ones at least knew of them. I just don't see a world where the monolith's purpose was known by them, the divising of a way to protect their people from chaos and being such a guiding figure that they don't have some form of contact. It wouldn't be unimagineable that he could perceive earthbound magic and used it to power the first runes alongside his parents, tapping into the web and expanding it in their own way.
 
hugo239111 said:
I think people are forgetting earthbound magic, it is stated to be present everywhere and the basis for the geomantic web that the Lizardmen have. Thungi was a son of Grungi and Valaya, both of whom based off everything with the Old Ones and them teaching so many as it went most likely were if not taught by the Old Ones at least knew of them. I just don't see a world where the monolith's purpose was known by them, the divising of a way to protect their people from chaos and being such a guiding figure that they don't have some form of contact. It wouldn't be unimagineable that he could perceive earthbound magic and used it to power the first runes alongside his parents, tapping into the web and expanding it in their own way.
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Earthbound magic is qualitatively the same as other magic, if you can see it you can see the winds, there is nothing inherently more dwarf-y about it just because it has the word 'earth' in it. Yes it can be bound to matter, so can Dhar that's called Warpstone so can the Winds, that's called a powerstone.
 
hugo239111 said:
I think people are forgetting earthbound magic, it is stated to be present everywhere and the basis for the geomantic web that the Lizardmen have. Thungi was a son of Grungi and Valaya, both of whom based off everything with the Old Ones and them teaching so many as it went most likely were if not taught by the Old Ones at least knew of them. I just don't see a world where the monolith's purpose was known by them, the divising of a way to protect their people from chaos and being such a guiding figure that they don't have some form of contact. It wouldn't be unimagineable that he could perceive earthbound magic and used it to power the first runes alongside his parents, tapping into the web and expanding it in their own way.
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Earthbound magic is a half explored concept that frankly may just be Teclis's patch over a similar blindspot to his failure to recognise divine magic as a seperate category.
The idea that you can strip away the identity of the winds in sufficiently small quantities falls apart in the face of the most potent runecraft or feats the Slann have pulled off, because they're obviously not magic in small quantities.

We're not forgetting it, magic that's just naturally settled into the earth and the geomantic web are probably some of our leading answers.
But just saying earthbound magic is doing it explains nothing about how it behaves, how its achieved so much power or really anything that helps us take another step forward in what we can do with that.

We don't know to what extent the Ancestor Gods interacted with the Old Ones. Dwarf society existed for centuries or millenia before the Ancestors managed to reforge it into the KA. They might have been taught by an Old One who still lived in Albion, they might have been specifically constructed by the Old Ones for the purpose of changing dwarf society, they might have stumbled upon some Old One Holocron equivilant that taught them stuff, they might just be lucky and success breed further success until dwarven belief turned ordinary dwarves into true gods similar to Sigmar and the Old Ones never interacted with them at all.
 
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