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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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DragonParadox said:
Rule of Pride, not Rune of Three, as far as we know the only thing that can get around the Rule of Three is 'being an Ancestor'. That said the broader point only applies if one thinks that the Conservatives and Radicals are fundamentally as valid paths to runic excellency. I... don't think they are, there is no metaphysical reason they would be, it is a cultural thing, and I can't really think of why obsessing over Rules Lawyering a cultural taboo (The Rune of Flickering Fire is totally different from the Rune of Sputtering Fire) would make you better at any job.
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Given the way the Aethyr works though, cultural things can become metaphysical things.

Talking of which, it doesn't seem like the creation of Khazagar is a Mythic Deed. Just a Mythic 'item'. I'm not completely sure about that though.

mmgaballah said:
That will never happen, the warp gates are constantly pushing out magic into the world which eventually falls down to earth and absorbed into the ground making more deep magic
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It happened in canon; which is why the gronti stopped working. Presumably the Vortex and expanded Waystone network were good enough at their job that they extracted magic from the world faster than it poured in through the broken Warpgates.
 
NSMS said:
And if Snorri's accidentally applied some of his traits to the Runiversity through an impromptu/accidental ritual, I can't help but wonder if inscribing so many variations of the same rune hundreds of times might also have a similar effect.
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Vragni's methodology will not result in accidentallying a magical ritual. The symbolism just isn't there.

soulcake said:
In contrast Vragni Silverbrand has already allowed a few promising talents the opportunity to work in his forges as each one finishes construction, their efforts speeding along the completion of his own structure through word of mouth and the attention of their patrons being drawn to benefit from contributing their own wealth.
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He's speedrunning the construction with Agile methodology, crowdsourcing the funds and labour, and releasing the minimum viable product to enthusiastic alpha testers.
Totally radical project management, but not a ritual.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Rule of Pride, not Rune of Three, as far as we know the only thing that can get around the Rule of Three is 'being an Ancestor'. That said the broader point only applies if one thinks that the Conservatives and Radicals are fundamentally as valid paths to runic excellency. I... don't think they are, there is no metaphysical reason they would be, it is a cultural thing, and I can't really think of why obsessing over Rules Lawyering a cultural taboo (The Rune of Flickering Fire is totally different from the Rune of Sputtering Fire) would make you better at any job.
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i mean if there is an underlying reason why the two runes preduce the same effect via different methods i'd argue that knowing exactly why they are fundamentally different runes and which to use in what situation is exactly what an expert or master would need to know, hell Snorri's specialty is odd and esoteric runes, his masterune, his variant runes of forgeflame are exactly why knowing and understanding those differences is important.

Edit: Now admittedly he also doesn't care to argue the point most of the time as he's a bit of a hermit who isn't very argumentative (for a dwarf), but he's 100% on the side of knowing the subtle and underlying differences that most people would overlook.

Another point would be that at it's core runesmiths are researchers not engineers getting into the minutia of why this particular curve works when this squiggle doesn't or produces a minuscule variation is their job, not actually pumping out good enough runelight #4465
 
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emberwing said:
i mean if there is an underlying reason why the two runes preduce the same effect via different methods i'd argue that knowing exactly why they are fundamentally different runes and which to use in what situation is exactly what an expert or master would need to know, hell Snorri's specialty is odd and esoteric runes, his masterune, his variant runes of forgeflame are exactly why knowing and understanding those differences is important.
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Being able to precisely tailor which variant of a rune you should use to exactly fit a given situation may well be a useful capability, but, to go back to the original point DP was replying to, it doesn't seem like it would be the kind of thing that would turn the construction process into a ritual.

I can see it doing lots of things, up to and including being a prerequisite for how the Ancestors broke the Rule of Three, but not an inadvertent ritual.
 
Alratan said:
It happened in canon; which is why the gronti stopped working. Presumably the Vortex and expanded Waystone network were good enough at their job that they extracted magic from the world faster than it poured in through the broken Warpgates.
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In canon the weakening of "old magic" (deep magic in this quest) happens sometime in the next 2000 years, so it's probably not a problem we'll experience in the quest.

I don't think it's explained why it happens in the one(?) canon book that mentions "old magic" growing weaker. So it could have happened for any number of reasons, some of which could be averted. (And of course soulcake might ignore any "canon" material that they think makes a worse story).

Personally, I think "deep magic is just gone, no one knows why" would be an unsatisfying thing for the story because a lot of the coolest lore and equipment we have is related to it.
 
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I'm not expecting him to beat Snorri at his own game(which would quite defeat the purpose of him making a viable alternative if it does the same thing), but whatever he makes should be pretty nifty to see too in his own style
 
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Raiseth said:
I didn't consider a building could be a Runesmith's work like a talisman or a weapon, and that was pretty shortsighted of me, Snorri sure showed me.

Good news, the only(?) way he can outescalate this now is refurbish the fuck out of a Karak or something.
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tri2 said:
just think, it could have been even better if the rest of the procs popped off.
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ACON said:
IIRC Mythic creations get stronger through deed and time, does this apply to Khazagar @soulcake?
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We technically had the means to make Khazagar more bling, even if we didn't vote that way. There was a vote to make a structure Khazagar's capstone.

What if we made that structure the foundations of Khazagar, auto-repair and perfection over time, or something like that. Voting for a banner instead of a structure might have been worked too, and we have had as easier time with researching banner runes than structure runes for exotic effects. Though including the effects in stone feels a lot more dwarfy.

Ofc, it would have made the whole thing a nightmare to handle action wise, whereas we can add the Gronti later. But ngl, if we had the means to make Khazagar feel alive like say Hogwarts, it'd have been awesome, but the circumstance and Snorri's knowledge didn't allow for it (yet).

On a side note, I'm ever so slightly disappointed that the gates of Khazagar are just the second best ones within a dozen miles. :V
 
Khaos said:
What if we made that structure the foundations of Khazagar, auto-repair and perfection over time, or something like that. Voting for a banner instead of a structure might have been worked too, and we have had as easier time with researching banner runes than structure runes for exotic effects. Though including the effects in stone feels a lot more dwarfy.
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Master Rune of Ensouled StoneStructuralMaster RuneStructure has fully autnomous control of all parts connected to Rune
 
On the topic of Vragni and his copycat Khazagar. I think the fundamental limit that stops Vragni from reliably outpacing Snorri is that Vragni can't seem to get that Legendary/Mythical deed .

From what his appearance suggest, Vragni prefers reliable work spread through many dwarfs in a kind of a strong fundamental/backbone kind of way. He probably singlehandedly probably reach close to or exceed our level of impact on the fimir war simply by being more involved in it in many little ways.

But the problem with this focus is that Vragni doesn't seem to commit fully into doing long shot /unreliable thing which is where the exponential rewards are.

I do kinda think Vragni would get to our level for Khazagar because he has probably for the first time fully commited to a single project, but I think moving forward he would fall back on relatively small but consistent gains .
 
IronFist said:
Master Rune of Ensouled StoneStructuralMaster RuneStructure has fully autnomous control of all parts connected to Rune
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That would be a nice longer term upgrade for Khazagar. A spin off from Movement of Things - Soul research perhaps.

There are a few upgrades we could do depending on where future research leads. Upgrading the kitchen with the results of the Albionese enchanted item investigation, upgrading the library based on Mind of Things, upgrading the power supply in the long distance future when we di the next stage of Movement of Things, etc

Evillevi said:
On the topic of Vragni and his copycat Khazagar. I think the fundamental limit that stops Vragni from reliably outpacing Snorri is that Vragni can't seem to get that Legendary/Mythical deed .

From what his appearance suggest, Vragni prefers reliable work spread through many dwarfs in a kind of a strong fundamental/backbone kind of way. He probably singlehandedly probably reach close to or exceed our level of impact on the fimir war simply by being more involved in it in many little ways.

But the problem with this focus is that Vragni doesn't seem to commit fully into doing long shot /unreliable thing which is where the exponential rewards are.

I do kinda think Vragni would get to our level for Khazagar because he has probably for the first time fully commited to a single project, but I think moving forward he would fall back on relatively small but consistent gains .
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One of the biggest advantages he has is that Vragni isn't held back from training apprentices by meta concerns. The apparent greater freedom for masters to collaborate and share knowledge with their ex-apprentices and vice versa multiplies what he can achieve. He's effectively benefiting from the results of a much larger research team. That's particularly valuable for him given his approach, as his large number of apprentices can research rune variants which they can share with him and he can share with their peers.

Our reluctance to train anymore apprentices means we're not getting the same level of benefits, which can be substantial, as we've seen from what Dolgi and Snerra have created and shared with us.
 
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IronFist said:
Vragni's methodology will not result in accidentallying a magical ritual. The symbolism just isn't there.



He's speedrunning the construction with Agile methodology, crowdsourcing the funds and labour, and releasing the minimum viable product to enthusiastic alpha testers.
Totally radical project management, but not a ritual.
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I mean... Snorri managed this despite having only really worked on it himself during the very final phase. I don't think getting large amounts of help really invalidates the idea.
 
Alratan said:
One of the biggest advantages he has is that Vragni isn't held back from training apprentices by meta concerns. The apparent greater freedom for masters to collaborate and share knowledge with their ex-apprentices and vice versa multiples what he can achieve. He's effectively benefiting from the results of a much larger research team. That's particularly valuable for him given his approach, as his large number of apprentices can research rune variants which they can share with him and he can share with their peers.

Our reluctance to train anymore apprentices means we're not getting the same level of benefits, which can be substantial, as we've seen from what Dolgi and Snerra have created and shared with us.
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I don't disagree with this, but I'm trying to expand on some thoughts that Vragni is held back by his own personal choices as opposed to his actual capability if that makes sense.

In likelihood Vragni if he had more investment on individual achievement rather then constant but reliable benefits, it would have made him more of a peer to Snorri . He has the skills, the potential, a working strategy and massive resources(if indirectly) at his fingertips.

But vragni is commiting a massive action sink for the good of dawi in wars, teaching and so on which makes getting these legendary + achievement much much harder for him.
 
Evillevi said:
I don't disagree with this, but I'm trying to expand on some thoughts that Vragni is held back by his own personal choices as opposed to his actual capability if that makes sense.

In likelihood Vragni if he had more investment on individual achievement rather then constant but reliable benefits, it would have made him more of a peer to Snorri . He has the skills, the potential, a working strategy and massive resources(if indirectly) at his fingertips.

But vragni is commiting a massive action sink for the good of dawi in wars, teaching and so on which makes getting these legendary + achievement much much harder for him.
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That's fair, but some of these things add to actions or effective rather than detract from them.

For example, he could well have a much better ability to leverage his apprentices to assist him than Snorri does, meaning that for major projects he effectively profits in terms of 'actions' from teaching, getting more actions out than he puts in.

Similarly, going to war might be profitable in terms of Favour and Standing and the opportunity to find inspiration, make connections and do rune trades, depending on how it goes. Particularly now the High King is here.
 
Now that was a great read. Congrats on forging writing Khazagar, Soulcake.
soulcake said:
-- Peerless Production [27/24] > Peerless Production [3/?]: Every 2 request actions add 1 extra progress. If 3 request actions, instead add 3 extra progress. Every request action has a 60% chance to proc extra progress.
-- Soul of the Earth [4/18] > [0/?] Every 2 research actions used for [Metal] Runes, and all geological material add 1 extra progress. If 3 research actions, instead add 2 extra progress. Every research action has a 40% chance to proc extra progress. Metalworking greatly improved.
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Hmph. Peerless Production went from 50% to 60% extra progress chance, and Soul of the Earth gained a 40% extra progress chance. It looks like these two traits are going to repeatedly level up, presumably up till they would reach 100%.

Speculatively, if each tier requires 3 more progress than the last, then Peerless Production 70% will be 3/27, 80% will be 0/30, 90% 0/33, and 100% 0/36. Which would mean Snorri is an absolutely absurd 123 progress away from theoretically maxing out Peerless Production. (Soul of the Earth would take 171 progress.) I doubt we'll ever even get close to maxing out a trait like this, if we'd ever even want to try.
veekie said:
I'm not expecting him to beat Snorri at his own game(which would quite defeat the purpose of him making a viable alternative if it does the same thing), but whatever he makes should be pretty nifty to see too in his own style
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For my 2¢ here, if Vragni has any T5 reagents lying around, now might be when he uses them. Snorri used his personal T5 gear to supercharge Khazagar, but if Vragni has even just one T5 reagent to use, that could allow him to surpass his own un-augmented level of skill, too. (Can a runesmith use spite as a reagent?)

More generally, I think it'll be way more fun and interesting if Vragni is able to make something equal to Khazagar in his own way, rather than for him to fail.
 
Derpmind said:
For my 2¢ here, if Vragni has any T5 reagents lying around, now might be when he uses them. Snorri used his personal T5 gear to supercharge Khazagar, but if Vragni has even just one T5 reagent to use, that could allow him to surpass his own un-augmented level of skill, too. (Can a runesmith use spite as a reagent?)

More generally, I think it'll be way more fun and interesting if Vragni is able to make something equal to Khazagar in his own way, rather than for him to fail.
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I think we should keep in mind that Vragni does not really want to make this thing, he is only doing so because he feel's force too. Vragni actually hates that he is doing this. It is a possability that Vragni is going to do the bare minimum he can get away with.
 
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Evillevi said:
I don't disagree with this, but I'm trying to expand on some thoughts that Vragni is held back by his own personal choices as opposed to his actual capability if that makes sense.

In likelihood Vragni if he had more investment on individual achievement rather then constant but reliable benefits, it would have made him more of a peer to Snorri . He has the skills, the potential, a working strategy and massive resources(if indirectly) at his fingertips.

But vragni is commiting a massive action sink for the good of dawi in wars, teaching and so on which makes getting these legendary + achievement much much harder for him.
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Let's not forget that Snorri, as a background effort, contributes to keeping Drakk supplied with runic equipment and gear. And provides toys for orphans. Certain amounts of support seem to just happen by default without needing AP expenditure once the Runelords is skilled enough (and if it's in line with their personality).
 
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NSMS said:
Let's not forget that Snorri, as a background effort, contributes to keeping Drakk supplied with runic equipment and gear. And provides toys for orphans. Certain amounts of support seem to just happen by default without needing AP expenditure once the Runelords is skilled enough.
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Do we do the former? I'm not sure that we do these days. Now Snorri is such an exalted figure, I'm not sure people still come to Snorri with minor commissions.
 
Alratan said:
Do we do the former? I'm not sure that we do these days. Now Snorri is such an exalted figure, I'm not sure people still come to Snorri with minor commissions.
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There's a mention of it in a discussion with Yorri in an update somewhere. I honestly don't remember which one or the exact wording, but I'm pretty sure the takeaway is that Snorri is still supporting the hold in general with his Runecraft.
 
Yeah it's hard to imagine Vragni being able to match this if he tries to go head-to-head with Snorri. Hopefully, his academy emphasizes his own strengths so it can equal or even surpass ours in its own specialized field.

And I can see why many runesmiths thought this was Snorri consolidating power now. You're more likely to be loyal to your alma mater and now all the runesmiths of Khazagar will have a unique rune color as a badge. I predict a splintering of the Conservatives and Radicals into even smaller factions based on more specific schools of thought. One of them will probably be, "The Golds".
 
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