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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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*Shrug*

Maybe quests aren't for you then, it feels in character to me

In the end this is a quest designed for fun and for a whole crowd, they've stayed in what I see as in-character this long.

Just because *you* see a character one way doesn't mean we all do.

If you want to stick really close to one idea of a character, maybe try rps or fics instead?

Accuse me and others of not giving a sh*t all you want, that's neat. Not particularly inclined to listen to you now if you're going to be rude.
I'd like to apologize if I sounded rude. First off to be clear if the QM rules on something I will support their ruling even if I don't personally agree with it. Second I the impression that you meant that you didn't care about being in character since I have seen players outright say they don't care about such things. Since that isn't the case I apologize for the misunderstanding.
 
I doubt the Brain will be wasted on the Cloak. I even think Bungni's plan will work. My objection was purely based on how much it did not befit our position as Runelord and Living Ancestor, but of course the native culture must be corrected and shit.
This seriously pisses me off. I used the brain for the reason of that I wanted to and think it was reasonable because of several factors. I explained those factors too, and I'll explain them for the benefit of others here; We have studied the kin of Kholek Suneater and determined that their brains are for control, coordination and higher level things than 'get hot, transfer energy' as soul has described. We have seen what he did in life, and have a basic description of it in death. From these we can make an educated guess. Further this is not the first time Snorri has done something similar; during the creation of Zharrgal Snorri used Adamant on the Rune of Thungni on an educated guess. A better educated one than this for sure, also supported by it being the Rune Metal, but still an educated guess. It was even referenced by another prominent dwarf's "Odd color though" comment following its creation.

An educated guess is not undwarfy. Needing to make one because we made a mistake in not researching it earlier, which I firmly believe we should have in hindsight, is not against dwarf culture or implying it is incorrect; its doing something foolish by its standards because of a mistake. Soul has been clear this is on the Radical end of things and Snorri will be conflicted about doing this, and it is for good reason, but being Radical is not out of dwarf culture, as it is a position within that culture. Is Yorri anti-dwarf because of his absurd radicality? Does his existence disrespect dwarf culture and imply it needs to be corrected? No! It just means he's bloody weird and takes risks his culture finds insane. I think there's damn good reason to have researched the brain, and like others my priorities for researching T5s has gone up considerably. But we didn't give that opportunity enough merit. We've done something dwarves would call foolish to make what we judge as best use of an opportunity that dropped in our laps. And yeah, if someone finds out we did that and calls Snorri a fool on it I'm not going to refute that; it is foolish.

If we take this cloak and hold up foolish mistake proudly and brow beat other characters into the belief that this was not foolish and try to make dwarf culture more flexible about such ingredient malarky then yes, we would be trying to 'correct' the native culture. If instead when the topic comes up, if it ever does, we use it as a chance to reinforce the idea of "research your damned shit so you're not like me" then I think that is acting to try and support a culture by accepting shame and understanding one's faults and past foolishness. E: And on the topic of the narrative I wove in my original proposal post, the context I was coming from there is that of the personal narrative of Snorri. There's reasons within dwarf culture to keep the creation of Skarrenbakraz and the Anvil secret. On a player level getting to explain our mistake to our eldest apprentices would be interesting to me but if we don't get the opportunity, then that's how events unfold.

To just spit all over my logic and imply all of that was baseless mummery or whatever the fuck and using hyperbole and mud slinging on someone's reputation just because your preference lost is rude. Don't do it to people and do not accuse me of this nonsense. Beyond that I don't really care what you do.
 
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I'd like to apologize if I sounded rude. First off to be clear if the QM rules on something I will support their ruling even if I don't personally agree with it. Second I the impression that you meant that you didn't care about being in character since I have seen players outright say they don't care about such things. Since that isn't the case I apologize for the misunderstanding.
It's fine.

Personally, I see Snorri as a smart cookie, he knows his stuff. So him replacing his cloak for the sake of perserving it makes sense to me.

Maybe he can gift it to someone else one day.

I imagined it being used a swaddle for a kid to keep them safe, not sure which kid but that's the most worthy use of it I can imagine.
 
It's fine.

Personally, I see Snorri as a smart cookie, he knows his stuff. So him replacing his cloak for the sake of perserving it makes sense to me.

Maybe he can gift it to someone else one day.

I imagined it being used a swaddle for a kid to keep them safe, not sure which kid but that's the most worthy use of it I can imagine.
Maybe one day he will pass it down to Karstah if she survives long enough for him to reach the end of his lifetime.
 
Just caught up with the thread. I wasn't sold on the cloak but lately the primordial theme has caught my imagination. I would have switched my vote for the cloak earlier, but the T5 thing was a dealbreaker for me. It did seem out of character that Snorri would gamble something like that, he always seemed so meticulous in previous chapters, and I expect there to be a character shift because of it. BungieONI's example a few posts above makes me feel a little better about the situation.

No matter what happens, I think we'll get something interesting. Either a dope cloak or a narrative-driven item like the Nemesis Crown. I mean, we're using some of our best reagents, one from a famous evil entity, plus the anvil boost. Something like the latter doesn't seem out of the question. It would be kind of neat to accidentally create a mythic item with a tragic flaw. There's so many ways it could develop the story. But I'm a guy who likes conflict and flawed characters, not ones who never seem to make mistakes. I don't judge the people who do, though. Winning is also fun.
 
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Just caught up with the thread. I wasn't sold on the cloak but lately the primordial theme has caught my imagination. I would have switched my vote for the cloak earlier, but the T5 thing was a dealbreaker for me. It did seem out of character that Snorri would gamble something like that, he always seemed so meticulous in previous chapters, and I expect there to be a character shift because of it. BungieONI's example a few posts above makes me feel a little better about the situation.

No matter what happens, I think we'll get something interesting. Either a dope cloak, or a narrative-driven item like the Nemesis Crown. I mean, we're using some of our best reagents with the anvil boost, something like the latter doesn't seem out of the question. It would be kind of neat to accidentally create a mythic item with a tragic flaw. There's so many ways it could develop the story. But I'm a guy who likes conflict and flawed characters in my stories, not ones who never seem to make mistakes. But I don't judge the people who do. Winning is also fun.
Yeah. If the cloak breaks or something of that nature, then we can walk away from it saying Snorri has learned an important lesson about even educated guesses and we should fix it in our minds as we take up his wife's cloak again.
 
Yeah. If the cloak breaks or something of that nature, then we can walk away from it saying Snorri has learned an important lesson about even educated guesses and we should fix it in our minds as we take up his wife's cloak again.
Presuming of course that the magical overload doesn't cause us to have a flash fried Snorri through Barak Azamar. I just dislike taking chances with crafting when there's a metric but ton of magic in the air, with no proper defenses or Ancestors using that to punt a belligerent Bull daemon, and we're still not sure exactly what all is going on in the brain in the first place due to no study of it. The chances for it to blow up in our faces metaphorically or worse literally is high, especially given that runesmith's stability comes from extensive testing which we've not done, and we're introducing several free radical into this now instead of just one.

Granted the chances of it killing or crippling us is is small given we're wearing Barak Azamar. Still too high of a risk for my liking.
 
Presuming of course that the magical overload doesn't cause us to have a flash fried Snorri through Barak Azamar. I just dislike taking chances with crafting when there's a metric but ton of magic in the air, with no proper defenses or Ancestors using that to punt a belligerent Bull daemon, and we're still not sure exactly what all is going on in the brain in the first place due to no study of it. The chances for it to blow up in our faces metaphorically or worse literally is high, especially given that runesmith's stability comes from extensive testing which we've not done, and we're introducing several free radical into this now instead of just one.

Granted the chances of it killing or crippling us is is small given we're wearing Barak Azamar. Still too high of a risk for my liking.
Snorri could well be hurt badly if it breaks. If so then that is part of the lesson. I'd prefer success and then never being forced into this situation again by lack of mats research.
 
This seriously pisses me off. I used the brain for the reason of that I wanted to and think it was reasonable because of several factors. I explained those factors too, and I'll explain them for the benefit of others here; We have studied the kin of Kholek Suneater and determined that their brains are for control, coordination and higher level things than 'get hot, transfer energy' as soul has described. We have seen what he did in life, and have a basic description of it in death. From these we can make an educated guess. Further this is not the first time Snorri has done something similar; during the creation of Zharrgal Snorri used Adamant on the Rune of Thungni on an educated guess. A better educated one than this for sure, also supported by it being the Rune Metal, but still an educated guess. It was even referenced by another prominent dwarf's "Odd color though" comment following its creation.

An educated guess is not undwarfy. Needing to make one because we made a mistake in not researching it earlier, which I firmly believe we should have in hindsight, is not against dwarf culture or implying it is incorrect; its doing something foolish by its standards because of a mistake. Soul has been clear this is on the Radical end of things and Snorri will be conflicted about doing this, and it is for good reason, but being Radical is not out of dwarf culture, as it is a position within that culture. Is Yorri anti-dwarf because of his absurd radicality? Does his existence disrespect dwarf culture and imply it needs to be corrected? No! It just means he's bloody weird and takes risks his culture finds insane. I think there's damn good reason to have researched the brain, and like others my priorities for researching T5s has gone up considerably. But we didn't give that opportunity enough merit. We've done something dwarves would call foolish to make what we judge as best use of an opportunity that dropped in our laps. And yeah, if someone finds out we did that and calls Snorri a fool on it I'm not going to refute that; it is foolish.

If we take this cloak and hold up foolish mistake proudly and brow beat other characters into the belief that this was not foolish and try to make dwarf culture more flexible about such ingredient malarky then yes, we would be trying to 'correct' the native culture. If instead when the topic comes up, if it ever does, we use it as a chance to reinforce the idea of "research your damned shit so you're not like me" then I think that is acting to try and support a culture by accepting shame and understanding one's faults and past foolishness. E: And on the topic of the narrative I wove in my original proposal post, the context I was coming from there is that of the personal narrative of Snorri. There's reasons within dwarf culture to keep the creation of Skarrenbakraz and the Anvil secret. On a player level getting to explain our mistake to our eldest apprentices would be interesting to me but if we don't get the opportunity, then that's how events unfold.

To just spit all over my logic and imply all of that was baseless mummery or whatever the fuck and using hyperbole and mud slinging on someone's reputation just because your preference lost is rude. Don't do it to people and do not accuse me of this nonsense. Beyond that I don't really care what you do.
This doesn't exactly address the point. I get that I could have used more tact, but Snorri was in no way bound to use that brain. There was nothing forcing him to take that risk.

I would argue that an educated guess on something as volatile as the brain is undwarfy. Snorri has done quite a bit of research into adamant and gromril, as you pointed out. Decades of research, even! We put, what? Three years at most into dragon ogres? Maybe five? And the difference between Pure Gromril and Adamant is far less than the difference between a Tier 4 reagent and a Tier 5.

During the forging of Zharrgal Snorri was implied to be on a high of sorts. The only characterization we have of Snorri using the brain currently is that he would not be happy. And using a Tier 5 reagent isn't going to be something that Snorri will do spurr of the moment. We've set him out designing the cloak with the intention of using the brain.

Yorri is not really the best example. He hasn't exactly made a pretense of following the broader aspects of Dwarf culture. He's willing to put Runes to uses and acts in a way that many would consider obscene. But we haven't really seen Yorri do something like this. He's impatient, but we've seen nothing that says he would gamble this much. Even then? He's a virtual exile for a reason. Snorri isn't, and has a responsibility to those that he teaches to follow his own teachings.

I am honestly curious in how this would ever come up as an example of do your research, unless this whole thing turns out to be a mitigated disaster of some sort. Because making something on an arcane conduit of all things... The results would be exacerbated, be they successes or failures.

I honestly don't see Snorri ever talking about this to anyone. It is a bad thing for beardlings to see their elders not follow their own advice.
 
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Snorri could well be hurt badly if it breaks. If so then that is part of the lesson. I'd prefer success and then never being forced into this situation again by lack of mats research.

The issue is Bungie, there will ALWAYS be more research and things Snorri does not know about. ALWAYS. Complaining about lack of mat's research is fruitless, and it's not like we've been wasting those turns in the interim on frippery. Rather I'd have been far happier with us continuing on and researching the storm and other sundry materials, up to and including the brain itself this turn instead. But no, we're jumping the gun and frankly putting Snorri is a high degree of danger. Because with all the magic pumping through the fulcrum, we have no way of knowing what could happen if something goes wrong, the odds of which are exponentially higher now that we're YOLO'ing a tier five material without proper research.

This isn't the fault of the quest not being diligent in research, because we've been doing our level best to do so while balancing the myriad commitments on our plate and researching runes and rune chains, as well as gromril handling and adamant making. Rather this the fault of impatience, a distinctly human trait Dwarves rarely suffer from. If you want more material research I'd agree whole heartedly, but saying this is why we need it is a rather two faced way to get it. We were not forced to do this at all, it was everyone's impatience doing it.
 
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This doesn't exactly address the point. I get that I could have used more tact, but Snorri was in no way bound to use that brain. There was nothing forcing him to take that risk.

I would argue that an educated guess on something as volatile as the brain is undwarfy. Snorri has done quite a bit of research into adamant and gromril, as you pointed out. Decades of research, even! We put, what? Three years at most into dragon ogres? Maybe five? And the difference between Pure Gromril and Adamant is far less than the difference between a Tier 4 reagent and a Tier 5.

During the forging of Zharrgal Snorri was implied to be on a high of sorts. The only characterization we have of Snorri using the brain currently is that he would not be happy. And using a Tier 5 reagent isn't going to be something that Snorri will do spurr of the moment. We've set him out designing the cloak with the intention of using the brain.

Yorri is not really the best example. He hasn't exactly made a pretense of following the broader aspects of Dwarf culture. He's willing to put Runes to uses and acts in a way that many would consider obscene. But we haven't really seen Yorri do something like this. He's impatient, but we've seen nothing that says he would gamble this much. Even then? He's a virtual exile for a reason. Snorri isn't, and has a responsibility to those that he teaches to follow his own teachings.

I am honestly curious in how this would ever come up as an example of do your research, unless this whole thing turns out to be a mitigated disaster of some sort. Because making something on an arcane conduit of all things... The results would be exacerbated, be they successes or failures.

I honestly don't see Snorri ever talking about this to anyone. It is a bad thing for beardlings to see their elders not follow their own advice.
He was not under oath or obligation to use the brain. The reasoning I have for using it is that what he, and we, should do based on that educated guess in order to get the designed intent of Skarrenbakraz is to use it. In terms of Yorri, is he teaching people or acting such as to damage dwarf culture? No, he is not, that is why he works as an example of Radical being within dwarf cultural remit and expression. The lesson of do your research I think if explained to one of his apprentices would be a trade of some of their respect for him for the weight of the lesson. Is this what is expected of elders no, so if it comes up highlight that. Use our brain. It is a radical and not very typical dwarfy approach, but its also the only one I could see Snorri thinking available if he ever ends up explaining it to his students. Honesty, and taking on shame he rightfully earned, and using honesty to clear that shame as best as able and reinforce cultural norms.

However with that explanation, very frankly given the framing of your argument and mud sligning, your framing of your arguments against mine since this started, and the fact that you're lashing out because you're salty I have actively negative interest in continuing this topic with you. You've intentionally made a ridiculous accusation that is intended to damage the reputation of more than seventy people including myself, and you here just resort to trying to defend that insult given instead of anything else.

No.
 
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Alright guys, no more talking about the Brain. It's been used, let it be. Leave the thread and scream into the void for a bit if you have to, talking about it in this context will do nothing now.

I swear I did this for the heart too.
 
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Easy thing is to just not give anymore T5 ingredients. That'll teach those pesky readers a thing or two.

Perhaps instead of giving us more T5 re-Agents, soulcake could instead give us a T5 re-Gent. Maybe a Dawi!Madoka, hidden daughter of Grungni, Grimnir and Valaya, appears to take over the reins of the Karaz Ankor after the Ancestors depart and a bad battle roll leads to Snorri Whitebeard's valiant death before leaving an heir.
 
Now let's move on to the future: specifically, why a Carnosaur Heart is way radder than a Troll Heart for the Grimnir Gronti.

First: Carnosaurs are swoler than trolls. This is important, as Grimnir was the swolest warrior of Dwarfkind.
Second: Carnosaurs are smarter than trolls. Trolls are really, really dumb, to the point I'm sure their heart occasionally forgets to beat. Grimnir was a genius, so we at least should harness the energy of "Clever Girl."
Third: Carnosaurs are more courageous than trolls. Trolls don't really feel fear because they are morons that don't even recognize the danger of that sword currently disemboweling them. The Carnosaur laughs at fear because it knows it is a fucking apex predator that can go toe-to-toe with a dragon.
Fourth: Carnosaurs can fight dragons on somewhat equal footing on the ground.
Five: Carnosaurs are cooler than trolls, being giant Velociraptor-Allosaurus dinosaurs. Grimnir was pretty cool.

(Eat your heart out Jurassic World, Warhammer combined raptors and larger theropods long before you were even an idea.)
 
Fact
When Snorri activates Barak Azamar, he turns into living stone and doesn't need food, sleep or air. To all intents and purposes he becomes a Gronti.

Fact
Barak Azamar also grants regenerative abilities to Snorri.

Speculation / Hypothesis
Could Snorri:
(i) activate Barak Azamar to turn into a Gronti;
(ii) remove his own heart while in Gronti-form (during which his normal biological needs and vulnerabilities are suspended);
(iii) grow a new heart in his chest through the power of Barak Azamar; and
(iv) preserve the removed Snorri-Heart No. 1 and use it as the reagent for the Grimnir Gronti?
 
Fact
When Snorri activates Barak Azamar, he turns into living stone and doesn't need food, sleep or air. To all intents and purposes he becomes a Gronti.

Fact
Barak Azamar also grants regenerative abilities to Snorri.

Speculation / Hypothesis
Could Snorri:
(i) activate Barak Azamar to turn into a Gronti;
(ii) remove his own heart while in Gronti-form (during which his normal biological needs and vulnerabilities are suspended);
(iii) grow a new heart in his chest through the power of Barak Azamar; and
(iv) preserve the removed Snorri-Heart No. 1 and use it as the reagent for the Grimnir Gronti?
In theory yes, but Soul has nixed using BA to get reagents from Snorri IIRC?
 
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