RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[soulcake]

Speaking of! @soulcake how much Adamant would making the limbs Adamant need? 3 bars, 2, 1?

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about one Bar per limb.

 

[soul ice]

No point in using Adamant on the limbs. There good for the life of one Dwarf. Better to save it for things that last for generations.

 

[fictionfan]

Considering that we don't seem to be coming up with an cool rune combination for Triage maybe we should just give her the standard limbs and use the action for something else? Not really wanting to spend the action unless we actually come up with something good.

 

[CedeTheBees]

[X] Fire Keeper: Kazrik Straightbeard
[X] Khazid: Accept

 

[Garlak]

I don't really see the point of putting a master rune of waking on the arm. What is the added value?
Edit: considering the rune of forged limb is sufficient for runesmithing (Joll), why would she need more fine motor control

Why not a weapon rune (like Smiting?) or a Master rune of Valaya?

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Wrong category.

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In that case, why not this rune? It's not like we don't have an Engineering Master Rune that does damage and thus fulfill what IronFist wants!

Master Rune of Lightning Strikes, Necessary Ingredients: [T3] Storm Wyrm's Blood/Dragon Ogre Shaggoth's Blood: The war machine bearing this Rune fires ammunition with thunderbolt level destructive power.

Give her something to strike back at the Dragon that took her limbs and the love of her life from her.

Master Rune of Lightning Strikes, Rune of Forged Limbs, and... maybe a Grudge Rune? Since she has a hell of a Grudge against the Dragon now.

Also, a bit of a shame that this rune isn't being used in any of the Prosthetics:

Rune of Empowerment: When activated, Gronti linked to this Rune will see improved performance for a short period of time, Gronti become sluggish for an equivalent amount of time afterwards.

It's literally one of the fancy new Engineering Runs that we traded for. Does it only work on Gronti and not Prosthetics or something @soulcake?

Man, Quick Wits and Perception would be nice to have. "higher reaction speeds" and "more aware of their surroundings" would, as always, be great for prosthetics.

EDIT:

[ ] Dronril, Dronwut: [Cost 6 actions] Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will proc. The amber, that you have come to call Dronril, and the wood, creatively named Dronwut, are intrinsically tied to each other, and learning more about one is sure to teach you something about the other.
- [ ] Craftsdwarf Expertise: [Cost: 15 Favour from Kraka Drakk] Gain 1 progress. Can be taken 4 times and without actions. Ask the Masters, and set them loose on what parts of the work they can.

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Man, 60 favor just to save us one single action.

Because it can only bring it down to 2 actions.

And, with Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth... putting 3 Snorri Actions into it gets you 3 bonus actions back. So even just putting 2 Snorri Actions into it gets you 1 bonus action too.

Meaning that this is, literally, 60 favor just to save us one single Snorri Action.

That level of anti-efficiency feels painful. ><

EDIT 2: Actually, that just means we put 1 Snorri Action into it on one turn, and then finish it off the next.

Pain slightly assuaged.

So: just finish the Dronril via Snorri actions split across two turns. That'll assuage my pain.

 

[fictionfan]

I went through the Excel sheet of runes and rune combos.

Living Steel - Engineering/Golem: Master Rune of Animation/Waking, Rune of Fortitude, Rune of Healing

Mighty Silver Titan - Engineering: Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Might, Rune of Fortitude

Perfectionism - Engineering: Master Rune of Animation/Waking, Rune of Morgrim, Rune of Thungni

Flawless - Engineering Master Rune of Waking, Rune of Forging, Rune of Thugni

Enduring Golem - Engineering/Golem: Master Rune of Animation/Waking, Rune of Fortitude, Rune of Preservation

Valiant Colossus - Engineering: Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Fortitude

I suspect that replacing the master rune of waking with forged limb will get similar combos

 

[BungieONI]

In that case, why not this rune? It's not like we don't have an Engineering Master Rune that does damage and thus fulfill what IronFist wants!

Master Rune of Lightning Strikes, Necessary Ingredients: [T3] Storm Wyrm's Blood/Dragon Ogre Shaggoth's Blood: The war machine bearing this Rune fires ammunition with thunderbolt level destructive power.

Give her something to strike back at the Dragon that took her limbs and the love of her life from her.

Master Rune of Lightning Strikes, Rune of Forged Limbs, and... maybe a Grudge Rune? Since she has a hell of a Grudge against the Dragon now.

Also, a bit of a shame that this rune isn't being used in any of the Prosthetics:

Rune of Empowerment: When activated, Gronti linked to this Rune will see improved performance for a short period of time, Gronti become sluggish for an equivalent amount of time afterwards.

It's literally one of the fancy new Engineering Runs that we traded for. Does it only work on Gronti and not Prosthetics or something @soulcake?

Man, Quick Wits and Perception would be nice to have. "higher reaction speeds" and "more aware of their surroundings" would, as always, be great for prosthetics.

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Largely because I was convinced by the arguments about her physical and mental wellbeing, and don't really want to give her a thunder fist since that has nothing to do with either of those things. I do like @ArchAIngel's idea about a Rune of Stone + Forged Limb + Waking though, and does improve defense, dexterity and strength even if it doesn't combo.

E: And I've gone ahead and updated my plan with that idea.

Man, 60 favor just to save us one single action.

Because it can only bring it down to 2 actions.

And, with Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth... putting 3 Snorri Actions into it gets you 3 bonus actions back. So even just putting 2 Snorri Actions into it gets you 1 bonus action too.

Meaning that this is, literally, 60 favor just to save us one single Snorri Action.

That level of anti-efficiency feels painful. ><

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I bumped it down to taking that option 3 times, since we can spend two Snorri actions on it at some point to finish it and not lose an action to overflow that doesn't go anywhere.

 

[Garlak]

Largely because I was convinced by the arguments about her physical and mental wellbeing, and don't really want to give her a thunder fist since that has nothing to do with either of those things. I do like @ArchAIngel's idea about a Rune of Stone + Forged Limb + Waking though, and does improve defense, dexterity and strength even if it doesn't combo.

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Sure, but she's also a Dwarf. Sending her off loaded for bear Dragon and letting her achieve Vengeance personally would also do a lot for her mental wellbeing. Possibly more in fact, because she will have had the satisfaction of personally achieving the vengeance and striking out the Grudge. Rather than having it be done on her behalf, by other people, while she was sequestered away and not allowed to do anything dangerous.

In fact, why not stuff the Runes with more Fire-resistance Runes instead? Though potentially unnecessary, as she'd probably deck herself out in armor that has some serious fire resistance when she goes to face it. Then again then again, with more fire-resistance runes on her limbs, she'd never be taken by surprise by any such thing again... Could even make a test run out of theming each limb after an element? Lightning, Fire, and Cold?

Let her recover over 1 or 2 decades, and then go join with whatever unit is going to be tracking down the dragon, and murder it.

Being a dwarf rather than a human, she'll probably feel better about having personally contributed to sating vengeance.

 

[fictionfan]

Rune of Empowerment: When activated, Gronti linked to this Rune will see improved performance for a short period of time, Gronti become sluggish for an equivalent amount of time afterwards.

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That does seem like a useful rune to put on a limb no matter what you plan on doing with it.

 

[BungieONI]

Sure, but she's also a Dwarf. Sending her off loaded for bear Dragon and letting her achieve Vengeance personally would also do a lot for her mental wellbeing. Possibly more in fact, because she will have had the satisfaction of personally achieving the vengeance and striking out the Grudge. Rather than having it be done on her behalf, by other people, while she was sequestered away and not allowed to do anything dangerous.

In fact, why not stuff the Runes with more Fire-resistance Runes instead? Though potentially unnecessary, as she'd probably deck herself out in armor that has some serious fire resistance when she goes to face it. Then again then again, with more fire-resistance runes on her limbs, she'd never be taken by surprise by any such thing again... Could even make a test run out of theming each limb after an element? Lightning, Fire, and Cold?

Let her recover over 1 or 2 decades, and then go join with whatever unit is going to be tracking down the dragon, and murder it.

Being a dwarf rather than a human, she'll probably feel better about having personally contributed to sating vengeance.

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This is not particularly compelling as a line of argument, because she can pick up her husband's axe (or weapon of choice) and murder it that way. The fact we just traded for the Lightning Strikes rune holds no water with me.

Giving her limbs focused on being good limbs, plus defense seems perfect for helping her out.

We don't need to give her a Master Rune of Lightning Strikes to enable her to contribute, which is what this line of argument implies, she's fully capable of that on her own.

 

[UlseDovThur]

@soulcake, could we use weapon master runes for the arm? Crossbows use weapon runes instead of engineering runes so...

 

[soulcake]

@soulcake, could we use weapon master runes for the arm? Crossbows use weapon runes instead of engineering runes so...

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Engineering for Master Rune purposes.

Theres a difference between something made as a weapon and a literal limb replacement.

 

[Garlak]

This is not particularly compelling as a line of argument, because she can pick up her husband's axe (or weapon of choice) and murder it that way. The fact we just traded for the Lightning Strikes rune holds no water with me.

Giving her limbs focused on being good limbs, plus defense seems perfect for helping her out.

We don't need to give her a Master Rune of Lightning Strikes to enable her to contribute, which is what this line of argument implies, she's fully capable of that on her own.

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Okay then.

What about the Rune of Empowerment thing though?

You could put it on one of her limbs, and then have the others have something like Might or Fortitude or Vitality or Vigor or something to increase vitality regeneration; the idea being that you can activate the Rune of Empowerment from one limb, which puts your 3 limbs into a turbo-mode, and then the rest of the runes on the limbs work on restoring power and energy to the runes really fast? ... And also provide a deep "well" or "big battery" of 'power' for the Empowerment too; thus making the turbo-boost last longer. Last longer and recharge faster. (Maybe the Wyrmheart Amulet itself might make it a bit easier to recover from using the turbo boost, too. In the medium/long-term anyway.)

One limb with MWaking, Forged Limb, Stone. One leg with Forged Limb, Empowerment, and ???. Perhaps Vitality or Vigor or something? And one leg with Forged Limb, and... I dunno. Might and Fortitude perhaps?

Could also go with Waking Runes on all 3 limbs.

MWaking + Forged Limb + Stone on the arm.

Forged Limb + Waking + Fortitude on a leg.

Forged Limb + Waking + Empowerment on the other leg.

Engineering Runes.

Theres a difference between something made as a weapon and a literal limb replacement.

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What happens if you have an Engineering rune like the Master Rune of Thunderbolts, and also wield a weapon too? Does the electric striking power come into effect only if you punch with that hand, or can it also be channeled through the weapon?

Or, would it have to be a specially tailored weapon to be capable of working alongside the runeweapon instead of just blasting the weapon itself with a thunderbolt?

And do we have any idea how the Rune of Empowerment interacts with Forged Limb Prosthetics? Or the Waking Rune?

If Forged Limb alone isn't enough to have the prosthetics benefit from the Empowerment, then maybe it'll take tossing a Waking Rune onto each one of them...

Thus going with my idea of "MWaking on one, Waking on each of the legs?" idea.

 

[Pempelune]

It seems the most in character, get's us a snazzy new specialty at Exceptional which is a great basis for getting into Akazit and will improve all our work with it and give us the easiest time expanding and learning it.

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Wait wait wait, what? New specialty? That's amazing! Do you have a source I could check out about this?
Also, do you know where I could find Snorri's A.G.E sheet? I've been going through Informational, but no dice :')

 

[Dark as Silver]

Sure, but she's also a Dwarf. Sending her off loaded for bear Dragon and letting her achieve Vengeance personally would also do a lot for her mental wellbeing.

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You realise we're talking about a dragon?
We've seen no indication she's any more of a warrior than any other statesdwarf?
Her trying to get personally involved getting revenge is likely to end with her dead.

 

[bird yells]

Wait wait wait, what? New specialty? That's amazing! Do you have a source I could check out about this?
Also, do you know where I could find Snorri's A.G.E sheet? I've been going through Informational, but no dice :')

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It's in the update. Check the action for buying alchemy books - going max all in on it will result in Snorri (eventually) earning a new specialty.

And soulcake's never set out one of those for Snorri, as far as I can remember, but you can get basically all the same info from the character sheet on page 1

 

[BungieONI]

Wait wait wait, what? New specialty? That's amazing! Do you have a source I could check out about this?
Also, do you know where I could find Snorri's A.G.E sheet? I've been going through Informational, but no dice :')

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Its in the Almanac Action. Snorri doesn't have an A.G.E Sheet as far as I know but his character sheet is on the front page.

Yorri'd by Birdyells!

What about the Rune of Empowerment thing though?

You could put it on one of her limbs, and then have the others have something like Might or Fortitude or Vitality or Vigor or something to increase vitality regeneration; the idea being that you can activate the Rune of Empowerment from one limb, which puts your 3 limbs into a turbo-mode, and then the rest of the runes on the limbs work on restoring power and energy to the runes really fast? ... And also provide a deep "well" or "big battery" of 'power' for the Empowerment too; thus making the turbo-boost last longer. Last longer and recharge faster. (Maybe the Wyrmheart Amulet itself might make it a bit easier to recover from using the turbo boost, too. In the medium/long-term anyway.)

One limb with MWaking, Forged Limb, Stone. One leg with Forged Limb, Empowerment, and ???. Perhaps Vitality or Vigor or something? And one leg with Forged Limb, and... I dunno. Might and Fortitude perhaps?

Could also go with Waking Runes on all 3 limbs.

MWaking + Forged Limb + Stone on the arm.

Forged Limb + Waking + Fortitude on a leg.

Forged Limb + Waking + Empowerment on the other leg.

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I don't think they suit as well as the Waking + Forged Limb + Stone, Forged Limb + Fortitude + Vitality (which might combo itself and play well with her amulet), and Forged Limb + Valiant + Warding. I think Fortitude and Vitality are important for healing, recovery, resistance to injury and wellbeing and Valiant + Warding is kind of the protection of Grimnir in a way. Not literally in a combo sense, but more as protecting her from further harm and giving her courage.

 

[soulcake]

What happens if you have an Engineering rune like the Master Rune of Thunderbolts, and also wield a weapon too? Does the electric striking power come into effect only if you punch with that hand, or can it also be channeled through the weapon?

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Lightning Fist, no channelling to the weapon if you were wielding it like a normal axe or something. Throwing the weapon however does proc it, as the Rune now treats it as ammunition. Or at least in theory, that's what records about siege equipment with such Runes throwing bundles of axes report.

It should, therefore, hold true for the prosthetic.

And do we have any idea how the Rune of Empowerment interacts with Forged Limb Prosthetics? Or the Waking Rune?

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Using Jorri you learn that his arm feels like it's capable of carrying double its usual loads but when it inevitably wears off it crashes and hurts about as much as if he'd gone through a very exhaustive workout.

 

[Enthusiast#117]

He says before going on to make more assumptions.
Funny thing is even your assumptions we'd still expect to see Chain get completed.
80 years is still a completely reasonable time period for a dwarf.

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The difference is in tone. "This is how things are." vs "This is how things could be."

The first assumes they are correct, the second acknowledges they might be wrong.

I explained my perspective.
Let me explain why I had it:

Tell me that no dwarf exists who has spent even "just" 300 years trying and failing to make Gromril Chain, or explain to me why Snorri will be able to achieve it in less than that amount of time when no other dwarf can.

We're even planning to overflow so we can finish the next step next turn. Clearly we expect to finish much sooner than 30 turns from now.

Either Snorri is for some reason uniquely suited to figuring it out, or he is uniquely placed to have access to the right sources of insight, or no one else has bothered to spend as much time and effort as Snorri is about to, or... what?

What does Snorri have that makes success here possible where all other dwarves have failed?

Once you've identified it, explain to me why it would necessarily take 200 years instead of 20 or 2000 for him to actually make use of that advantage.

My core assumption was that time spent is unlikely to be the factor preventing success.

If having the research project at all means that Snorri has all the clues needed to solve the problem and just needs to put in the effort to do so, 20 or 80 years is reasonable for any other dwarf with the same advantages to take.

If having the research project means he's just aware of the goal, and is beginning the search for those missing clues, the expected time investment starts getting quite a bit longer.

Of course, soulcake has since settled the matter: it's a chain, not a one off.

And since I generally am careful to phrase my perspectives as possibilities rather than certainties, I don't have to eat my words when new information disproves my hypothesis.

 

[Copperscale]

Hold	Name	A.G.E	Personality, Quirks	Mastered Specialty	Exceptional Specialty	Exceptional Specialty	Exceptional Specialty	Regular Specialty
Drakk	Snorri Klausson	Snorrist, Man, 890 Yrs. Old	Old grumbler, Bleeding heart, Apolitical, Even further beyond	Productivity	Odd and Esoteric Runes	Engineering Subset: Gronti	Talismanic Runes	Engineering

My guess at Snorri's AGE chart

Edit:Although to be honest, our orange creations are more often Weapons, Armor or Banners... with only one Legendary talisman, and no legendary warmachines. I guess player Bias towards weapons and armor.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Tell me that no dwarf exists who has spent even "just" 300 years trying and failing to make Gromril Chain, or explain to me why Snorri will be able to achieve it in less than that amount of time when no other dwarf can.

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Where did the number three hundred come from?
Before you were suggesting 80 or so based on a one action at a time investment. If you believe that it will take 300 years, or 30 actions 1 per turn then we agree that this must be a chain unless Snorri has a much lower action cost than any other dwarf.

I don't need to explain exactly how long it would take and we all know its absolutely unreasonable for you to demand that. In fact, I'm happy to accept that given all Snorri's advantages this is likely to be a decades long endeavour, our side never disputed that... Its what we expect of a chain.

Your original argument was that this might not be the start of a chain. I believe we have cast sufficient doubt that this is almost certainly a chain on the basis that if it where that cheap, other dwarves would have done it already.
In fact if anything its the absolute opposite, you need to justify why if Gromril chain is a single thing with only an action cost of only 8 that no other dwarf has ever achieved this before.
Quit moving the goalposts.

 

[soul ice]

I don't think we have the rune of Vitality yet we have had some opportunities to trade for it but never got it. Gonna have to use another rune.

 

[BungieONI]

I don't think we have the rune of Vitality yet we have had some opportunities to trade for it but never got it. Gonna have to use another rune.

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Basic rune of Vitality is one we do have.

 

[Enthusiast#117]

Your original argument was that this might not be the start of a chain. I believe we have cast sufficient doubt that this is almost certainly a chain on the basis that if it where that cheap, other dwarves would have done it already.
In fact if anything its the absolute opposite, you need to justify why if Gromril chain is a single thing with only an action cost of only 8 that no other dwarf has ever achieved this before.
Quit moving the goalposts.

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I picked 300 years arbitrarily because you called 80 years "a completely reasonable time period for a dwarf." And surely at least some dwarves have spent a slightly unreasonable amount of time on this project?


The point I guess I'm dancing around is that 8 Actions could just be Snorri's action cost for this project.

Other dwarves could have a higher cost to reach, or be putting actions into a false-project because they don't have whatever Snorri has that allows for the possibility of success.

If no one else has done it, that implies no one else even can.

If Snorri has it as a project, that implies he can do it.

Why assume other dwarves have the same project Snorri does?

 

[Alratan]

Isn't the current prevailing plan at risk of leaving us short of favour for Alchemy in the long run?

On limb combos, Empowerment sounds like it might be interesting, as the ability to exert it seems like it make the limb act like a more biological one.

If, however, we're doing MRoA + Rune of Forged Limb + Rune of Stone I really think we should specify using a Hearthstone, rather than a Troll's Heart. Hearthstone is still stone. I do wonder if we can request that the Miners and Jewellers look for/carve a higher tier Hearthstone, if that's possible.

Edit: also, how many actions are we putting into actually making the limbs? Presumably we want to make them of adamant, but we may also want to overflow on this