We don't want cleansing dependent on us. We want to be able to find a way to make cleansing available to everyone even if Sabrina were to poof out of existance. Our hope is we'll find a way to produce Grief Cubes in a way that other girls can replicate.

Cleansing being forever dependent on Sabrina is a bad thing, since the moment we die, Kyubey gets back to his normal business.
Do you think that some grief manipulators may gain the ability to do a weaker version of our powers if we can give them something that grants them greater control over their powers, and combines that with a power amplification enchantment? It may even be that working with another grief manipulator would be part of how we create grief cubes, since it might let us increase the pressure with which we compress it beyond what we can do alone (or if we just use the help of a power amplifying guca).
 
I think the system breaking will always be dependent on Sabrina in this setting. Kyubey is going to be around more or less forever and it's clear that they will always try to impose their system on the world (see: Rebellion). The system will only remain broken if someone is there to actively oppose them and help Meguca. I'm not convinced we will ever get to the point of passively breaking the system with artificial grief cubes or something; this setting isn't known for that easy or tidy a solution. Is being forever dependent on Sabrina to oppose Kyubey's system ideal? Definitely not, but I doubt it's possible any other way. The incubators have terrifying capabilities. I'd love to be proven wrong though.

I would also like to point out that the last time the system was broken, it was done by Madokami and required her active maintenance forever even without considering incubator interference. I think we might be able to do better in terms of improving people's lives since we can actually interact with people, but I doubt we can get that result without similar active maintenance.
 
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Don't worry about it. I know this wasn't intentional, and clarifying our positions to one another is a normal part of having a civil discussion. I do apologize if the caps came off as me being upset. I was just trying to emphasize where I thought the disconnect was.

I understand your position. I think it's a matter of trade-offs. I think fewer girls witching out now is a good trade for troubles down the road re-collecting Clear Seeds. Sort of like how breaking someone's sternim is a good trade-off for getting them resuccitated with CPR. I conceptualize us as being in an emergency situation, and the distribution of Clear Seeds being an emergency measure. Emergency measures usually do involve trade-offs like that, where we would do things differently if we were in an ideal world and could get everything set up just the way we want it from the beginning.

Because every one of those food banks also doubles as an impenetrable forward base from which we can deploy an unending army of Sayakas to enforce our tyranical rule? I mean, it's an explicit selling point that no one will be able to attack it and win.

I'm reminded of an old sci-fi show called Earth Final Conflict. There's an episode where the equivalent of a nuclear terrorist attack is thwarted when the alien embassy raises its defesnes and deflects the blast into space. Afterward, there's some considerable allarm on the news that the aliens had put fortified strongholds in every major capital capable of shrugging off the most powerful weapons humanity had.

We don't want cleansing dependent on us. We want to be able to find a way to make cleansing available to everyone even if Sabrina were to poof out of existance. Our hope is we'll find a way to produce Grief Cubes in a way that other girls can replicate.

Cleansing being forever dependent on Sabrina is a bad thing, since the moment we die, Kyubey gets back to his normal business.
Okay then I guess we've swapped places on long term consequences. I don't think it's possible to get every meguca capable of making grief cubes. At best we can figure out a way for other grief controllers and/or science-guca like Nico to also produce them. The average meguca won't be able to make them herself and we'll still need a dedicated distribution network to get cubes to the larger meguca population.

And even if we can get most meguca to make their own cubes that's going to take even longer than figuring out how to produce them ourselves, and puts another hurdle in front of de-witching. I can agree to waiting until we have grief cubes to start de-witching, but I can't agree to waiting until every meguca can make her own to start de-witching. Which means trying to talk girls into surrendering cleansing independence back to us 'temporarily.' Which sounds even shadier.
 
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i still think we could use wish magic to delete the incubators from existence. its just a matter of time, and building that capacity without getting nipped in the bud vy the incubators.
 
Incidentally, I can't be the only one who's endlessly amused by the fact that our initial offer was essentially, "We want to give you a bunch of free stuff, no strings attached!" and we got talked down to "Fine, we'll install an unassailable fortress, teleport hub, and forward base in your territory from which we'll be able to expand our operations and enforce our will. If you absolutely insist."
 
Incidentally, I can't be the only one who's endlessly amused by the fact that our initial offer was essentially, "We want to give you a bunch of free stuff, no strings attached!" and we got talked down to "Fine, we'll install an unassailable fortress, teleport hub, and forward base in your territory from which we'll be able to expand our operations and enforce our will. If you absolutely insist."
Can I sig this? This is gold.
 
Incidentally, I can't be the only one who's endlessly amused by the fact that our initial offer was essentially, "We want to give you a bunch of free stuff, no strings attached!" and we got talked down to "Fine, we'll install an unassailable fortress, teleport hub, and forward base in your territory from which we'll be able to expand our operations and enforce our will. If you absolutely insist."
So on one level that sounds absolutely insane. But I think (and hopefully I haven't missed discussion going over this already) it was absolute genius. Instead of us dropping free shit on their lap and fucking off while they go into civil war over the free shit, we're now a constant presence in their territory maintaining active control of the free shit and a niggle in the back of their mind to not kill the golden goose.
 
Can I sig this? This is gold.
Go right ahead.
So on one level that sounds absolutely insane. But I think (and hopefully I haven't missed discussion going over this already) it was absolute genius. Instead of us dropping free shit on their lap and fucking off while they go into civil war over the free shit, we're now a constant presence in their territory maintaining active control of the free shit and a niggle in the back of their mind to not kill the golden goose.
I think you've got it about right. Still hilarious that's how this meeting went down, though.
 
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Incidentally, I can't be the only one who's endlessly amused by the fact that our initial offer was essentially, "We want to give you a bunch of free stuff, no strings attached!" and we got talked down to "Fine, we'll install an unassailable fortress, teleport hub, and forward base in your territory from which we'll be able to expand our operations and enforce our will. If you absolutely insist."

This never occured to me until you pointed it out, but I can't stop laughing now.
 
Incidentally, I can't be the only one who's endlessly amused by the fact that our initial offer was essentially, "We want to give you a bunch of free stuff, no strings attached!" and we got talked down to "Fine, we'll install an unassailable fortress, teleport hub, and forward base in your territory from which we'll be able to expand our operations and enforce our will. If you absolutely insist."
*Giggling* Well now that you mention it...
 
Part of the clear seed recall will be witchbombing a lot of people, but that's necessary anyway since nobody's going to trust us enough to give us all their grief seeds in addition to having sole control of their clear seed access.

You call it "spreading the souls of hundreds or thousands of girls all around the world", but so far we've exclusively cleared out seeds that were already in the possession of the group that'll be using them. We're not adding any seeds to the system, and the one seed per group policy means they're not even moving around.
Okay it's not physically spreading them around the world but it is basically gluing them down. Grief Seeds can all be collected with enough effort if we can produce enough Grief Cubes that people can build up comparable stockpiles, and we spend years building trust, and we offer to accept grief seeds as alternative payment to cash for 'luxury' non-cleansing services. Clear Seeds OTOH are fusion reactors that, from a non-moral perspective, are about a billion times better than grief cubes. If our plan is to witch-bomb literally everyone to get them back then we're going to have a large number of groups who either say 'fuck you I don't care' or who witch out at the revelation. Not necessarily a majority or anything, but a lot. Remember we're living in Mami Tomoe's house and sleeping in her bed and we still don't think that's enough of a safety net to witch-bomb her. If we do this there will be lots of witchouts. Even if we can fix those witchouts and just beat the shit out of the amoral assholes that's not so much a plan as it is not caring about the consequences of our actions.
I kind of want to make swaps of Grief Seeds for Clear Seeds in our cleansing stations. Drop off any number of Grief Seeds, get as many of them back as Clear Seeds as you want. Include suggested charitable donations of Grief Seeds to the cleansing station to help out girls who don't have Grief Seeds to trade.

Every Grief Seed we get out of circulation is one that doesn't go to Kyubey, so incentivising them to come to us instead of to him is a really important thing. Getting Clear Seeds back from groups that don't want to give them up is going to be a million times easier than getting Grief Seeds back from Kyubey, even assuming the Grief Seeds Kyubey collects are even in an intact state after he's done "processing" them.
This is fine, but I don't think it's enough to get all the grief seeds. No one is going to give us all their Grief Seeds in the first batch, or going to have much incentive to get several clear seeds, so we should think of more things that we can exchange for them. While we offer stuff like cleansing, shelter, and (eventually) grief counseling for free there's about a billion other services that Constellation can provide that we aren't morally obligated to give out for free. The big one right now is travel via Yuki's building network. If a meguca want's to travel somewhere they can pay us actual money or Grief Seeds. We don't even need to make our real money prices that expensive since Grief Seeds are going to tank in value, they could pay us idk 200 bucks to be instantly teleported to Hawai'i, or they hand over some of their 'just in case Constellation is evil' Grief Seed stockpile which is literally useless for anything but this.

Heck Sabrina and Yuki could plan and deploy a moon base with like 2 days of effort. If we offer teams a day on the Moon for $10,000 or 20 Grief Seeds we will rake in Grief seeds so fast our heads will spin.

Edit: Sorry for replying to you guys twice, I'm just finally off work and can hear myself think.
 
i havent yet bothered to figure it out. but there's most likely a way to combine clone magic, opression platform, and landguca-ing into guca-vonneuman probes 👀

"hey mikiel, want to go to space?"

to boldly go where no miki has gone before (or why sayaka clones need thier own union)
 
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This is fine, but I don't think it's enough to get all the grief seeds.
I'm okay with us not getting all the Grief Seeds. Grief Seeds that are being stockpiled "in case Constelation is evil" are still Grief Seeds that aren't going to Kyubey, and will thus remain theoretically accessible to us.

Which reminds me, next time we talk to Kyubey, I want us to ask him to give us all the Grief Seeds he's collected. Offer to extract all the Grief from them and feed it back to him. The worst that can happen is he says no, and we're no worse off than we were before. There's the slim possibility whatever processing system they've got going isn't as efficient as Sabrina pulling all the Grief out of a Seed, and he'll say yes, giving us access to Seeds we'd previously considered permanently lost.
 
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This would be correct if we make Grief Cubes exactly like they worked in canon. It's probably possible that we can make grief cubes that are on par or even better than Clear Seeds.
There's a difference between optimism and wishful thinking. We know that Grief Cubes can actually exist as grief constructs independent of us or a meguca's soul, so it's a feasible goal for us to shoot for. It took the technology of a Kardashev IV civilization, human sacrifice, and a completely OOCP wish from a super special self-insert to get Clear Seeds, we're not getting something better without a Madoka wish. Or mass human sacrifice.

I'm okay with us not getting all the Grief Seeds. Grief Seeds that are being stockpiled "in case Constelation is evil" are still Grief Seeds that aren't going to Kyubey, and will thus remain theoretically accessible to us.

Which reminds me, next time we talk to Kyubey, I want us to ask him to give us all the Grief Seeds he's collected. Offer to extract all the Grief from them and feed it back to him. The worst that can happen is he says no, and we're no worse off than we were before. There's the slim possibility whatever processing system they've got going isn't as efficient as Sabrina pulling all the Grief out of a Seed, and he'll say yes, giving us access to Seeds we'd previously considered permanently lost.
Well I never said we need to collect them ASAP, I just laid out a plan for eventually getting them all. It's true that just making sure no one feeds them to the alien abomination is a victory in itself, but we do want to eventually collect them all.
 
I think you're overstating how hard this would be. A Clear Seed is literally just Grief Seed with the Grief pulled out to make more space. Nothing wrong with trying to make proper Grief Cubes first but I don't see why you couldn't just make a Grief Cube with a larger capacity.
Grief seeds are already almost full of grief, while we don't have any reason to suspect that Grief cubes are pre-filled in the slightest.

Furthermore, the extra capacity might come from the fact that a Grief seed is a soul which innately is a source of emotion and heavily tied to it, while a cube originally comes from the Wraits, which is the world itself trying to remove emotion, and is presumably less attuned to the concept.
 
Incidentally, I can't be the only one who's endlessly amused by the fact that our initial offer was essentially, "We want to give you a bunch of free stuff, no strings attached!" and we got talked down to "Fine, we'll install an unassailable fortress, teleport hub, and forward base in your territory from which we'll be able to expand our operations and enforce our will. If you absolutely insist."
*Several failed negotiations later*
"Ok we will rule you with an iron fist but no more concession okay?!"

But seriously who thinks we are being set up?
Change our opening position so we don't seem as friendly?
 
*Several failed negotiations later*
"Ok we will rule you with an iron fist but no more concession okay?!"

But seriously who thinks we are being set up?
Change our opening position so we don't seem as friendly?

By Chiyoda? While I wouldn't completely rule it out, I really do think she wants us to remove the 'problem groups' that are directly obstructing her. She's not lying there. Other then that? Good thing we're resolved to talk to all the groups that are the center of it.
 
"-but the base! The amount of control put on everything- the drones! All of it-"

"They literally talked US down into all of it. Like, as far as I cared, it would have been free cleasens for everybody-"

"What?"

"-but noooooo, too good to be true, there are a few rascals that would abuse them, little confidence, yaddahyaddahyaddah- by that point I had to put My foot down in the concessions, because seriously..."
 
You have to consider what Chiyoda is getting out of it—specifically, they get to use Constellation as both a big stick and a carrot to secure their sovereignty.

Sure, there are limits to how they use our power—we won't tolerate any form of abuse, for example—but essentially we're a foreign power propping up a local government in order to stabilise the region.

Basically, they talked us down from "Alien race giving out free enlightenment" to "Cold war government building hospitals and army bases in 3rd world nation".
 
I'm okay with us not getting all the Grief Seeds. Grief Seeds that are being stockpiled "in case Constelation is evil" are still Grief Seeds that aren't going to Kyubey, and will thus remain theoretically accessible to us.

Which reminds me, next time we talk to Kyubey, I want us to ask him to give us all the Grief Seeds he's collected. Offer to extract all the Grief from them and feed it back to him. The worst that can happen is he says no, and we're no worse off than we were before. There's the slim possibility whatever processing system they've got going isn't as efficient as Sabrina pulling all the Grief out of a Seed, and he'll say yes, giving us access to Seeds we'd previously considered permanently lost.
Note that its theorized that grief seeds generate more grief constantly. Taking out a seed and giving QB a lump sum results in a static, unchanging amount, instead of basically free energy generators.
 
Incidentally, I can't be the only one who's endlessly amused by the fact that our initial offer was essentially, "We want to give you a bunch of free stuff, no strings attached!" and we got talked down to "Fine, we'll install an unassailable fortress, teleport hub, and forward base in your territory from which we'll be able to expand our operations and enforce our will. If you absolutely insist."
Yuki's out here feeling very justified in her assessment of Sabrina's bartering skill.
 
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