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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Maximum honesty?

[X]There doesn't have to be a fight. I'll promise you now that so long as you're a peaceful guest in this city, you will not be harmed.
-[x]I want your power almost as badly as you want mine for clear seed dewitching research, and also expect a fight if I take it. Neither of us wants a fight though so perhaps you can still help me, we can deal with each other like civilized people?
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 6, 2018 at 3:15 PM, finished with 48 posts and 6 votes.
  • [X] Kaizuki
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X]There doesn't have to be a fight. I'll promise you now that so long as you're a peaceful guest in this city, you will not be harmed.
    -[x]I want your power almost as badly as you want mine for clear seed dewitching research, and also expect a fight if I take it. Neither of us wants a fight though so perhaps you can still help me, we can deal with each other like civilized people?
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 6, 2018 at 3:28 PM, finished with 49 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Kaizuki
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X]There doesn't have to be a fight. I'll promise you now that so long as you're a peaceful guest in this city, you will not be harmed.
    -[x]I want your power almost as badly as you want mine for clear seed dewitching research, and also expect a fight if I take it. Neither of us wants a fight though so perhaps you can still help me, we can deal with each other like civilized people?
    [x] I don't want a fight, I want help with dewitching research. What do you want? Nobody travels half way around the world on a lark when they have something to protect back home.
Click to expand...
 
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Redshirt Army said:
The implicit lie is that we need her help with dewitching. It's a lie because we're capable of taking her power by force, so her cooperation isn't actually necessary.

Just mentioning that we're working on dewitching isn't a lie, since, well, we are.
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I don't think that's a lie. We really would like to work with her peacefully. She clearly knows we disapprove of her modus operandi. If she chooses to make assumptions about how much her cooperation is worth to us when weighed against condoning her behaviour, that's on her. It's not like we made the decision to gem her and steal her power, and are trying to deceive her.
 
[x] I don't want a fight, I want help with dewitching research. What do you want? Nobody travels half way around the world on a lark when they have something to protect back home.
 
Aranfan said:
[x] I don't want a fight, I want help with dewitching research. What do you want? Nobody travels half way around the world on a lark when they have something to protect back home.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Seems too close to prodding about Sister.

[X]Even if she thinks you can't help her, perhaps she can help you still. You don't want a fight, you want help with clear seed dewitching research.
 
[X] Conjured Blade

We should deflate her constant attempts to goad us into a fight.

Doesn't mean we will tolerate her forever, however.
 
[X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
 
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Adjusted to a slightly modified version of @SaltyWaffles plan

Edit: Added a bit more

[X]She's right. Neither of you want a fight.
[X]Even if she thinks you can't help her, perhaps she can help you still.
[X]Bring up your dewitching efforts, including the progress you've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 6, 2018 at 5:03 PM, finished with 53 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X]Even if she thinks you can't help her, perhaps she can help you still. You don't want a fight, you want help with clear seed dewitching research.
    -[x]Nothing wrong with that even if your terms for giving them would be a fight.
    [X] Kaizuki
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] I don't want a fight, I want help with dewitching research. What do you want? Nobody travels half way around the world on a lark when they have something to protect back home.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 6, 2018 at 5:37 PM, finished with 54 posts and 10 votes.
  • [X]She's right. Neither of you want a fight.
    [X]Even if she thinks you can't help her, perhaps she can help you still.
    [X]Bring up your dewitching efforts, including the progress you've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
    -[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] I don't want a fight, I want help with dewitching research. What do you want? Nobody travels half way around the world on a lark when they have something to protect back home.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
Click to expand...
 
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Legend: any line with an = is conjecture, options, possibilities, etc
any line with > is new train of thought, potentially split off from an earlier line

- The idea that we can't help her is ludicrous. She's stonewalling.
-- Why?
--= Fear of us targeting her or giving out information?
---= Not afraid of us (foolish), ergo afraid of information leakage
----= Godwinson's hypothesis that she's doing something incredibly awful: could be true, and it's to sustain whatever she's up to?
----= Alternatively, since she didn't really want us to even know she was doing anything in Edinburgh, could just be she doesn't want to give any enemies any info about whatever she's doing since it would be a weakness?
------ On this line, arguably Kyubey could easily twist whatever she's doing into being something incredibly awful. Pursuing that notion, any information leakage is obviously a bad idea.
------- This would also provide an extremely good line of reasoning for the shades back at Edinburgh. By this point, it should be that no Magical Girl would be stupid enough to go there -- but Kyubey would absolutely take any opening to poke around for information about someone like Rionna, or to contract new Magical Girls inside the city, or etc, and this would absolutely motivate 24/7 security. Hell, if we had an army of anti-kyubey minions, we'd maintain them 24/7 around Mitakihara too...


> Actually, in general, we've kind of ignored Kyubey as part of this situation. There's a real question as to why Rionna has bothered to "make examples." After all, it can't be free -- killing gucas is going to cost her magic, in the end. But with the kind of reputation and sheer power she has, the vast majority of Meguca should want nothing to do with her. She's a goddamn bogeywoman, everyone in a few hundred miles' radius is going to be telling people that they're idiots if they want to go anywhere near Edinburgh.
-= It could be that the rate of "example making" is just pretty low.
-= Additionally, Kyubey should have low motivation to sic people on Rionna -- shades don't witch, basically.
--= So, maybe ignoring Kyubey in this situation is correct, on the whole?


- It seems like a pretty clear deal that she's either got her sister up there in some form or is carrying out her sister's last wishes.
-- Assuming that she's afraid of information leakage, it follows that any attempt to more closely root out the nature of the problem is a fool's errand without first establishing a modicum of trust.




Right, lying or whatnot can fuck off.

Hrm.

Firnagzen said:
"My magic can do far more than just move Grief around," you say, gesturing at the privacy field around you. "And what I can't do, I've got people for - or I can find people for. Unlimited cleansing is kind of the ultimate bargaining chip."

She looks away, and coughs roughly into the back of her hand.

Madoka would try.

And if you're wrong, if she's hostile, well.

Your magic can do far more than just move Grief around. What you can't do, you have your friends for.

"You can't help me," Rionna says, shaking her head. "Go back to your girl, go back to your friends. Y' don't want this fight, neither do I."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Okay. Establishing trust... well, not trust. I don't think we'll ever really trust this girl, not inside the quest scope. But, something that could substitute for it. Start by... responding to her last line, and making it clear why we aren't just ditching her. Then, directly jump to trust as a topic instead of letting her continue stonewalling with "you can't help me." Bring up dewitching ASAP once the conversation has been re-railed.

I'm not quite happy with the last line, but I'm not quite happy with our currently devised list of potential methods for actually crafting a substitute for trust, either.



[X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.

[X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
-[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
--[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.

[X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
-[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?

[X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
 
[x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
-[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
 
[X] Kaizuki

Turn witches back into lich b**ches.

:V

comedy?
Adhoc vote count started by Norad the Borad on Aug 6, 2018 at 8:04 PM, finished with 60 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
    -[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Norad the Borad on Aug 6, 2018 at 8:10 PM, finished with 61 posts and 15 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
    -[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Norad the Borad on Aug 6, 2018 at 10:15 PM, finished with 66 posts and 18 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
    -[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Norad the Borad on Aug 7, 2018 at 3:05 AM, finished with 88 posts and 22 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
    -[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
Click to expand...
 
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Can I just say I'm really, really happy with how this vote turned out? I mean, there's still a lot of careful navigation to be done here, but Rionna's composure cracked for a second there, which was awesome.

I generally happy with the vote Kaizuki's come up with, except for this part:
Kaizuki said:
[X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
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This doesn't feel quite right to me. I agree it's definitely important to acknowledge that Sabrina really wants her power in order for a deal to ultimately be made, yes. But I think this phrasing undermines the message of this update Sabrina came out with, the one I think scored a hit on Rionna - that Sabrina wants to help her. I know Sabrina said it early on, but I think the reason why it had such an impact here was because it was directly in response to Rionna's 'I am a monster' spiel - Rionna was absolutely not expecting it, because it's so incredibly rare for someone to offer help when they hate pretty much everything you do.
 
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[x] Kaizuki

Fininally got caught up through the fire and the flames I carried through X___X
 
Kaizuki said:
WOOHOO!

CHALK ONE UP FOR CATGIRL LOGIC, NYAN!
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Of course it's good logic. It's *catgirl* logic.


[X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
[X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
-[X]Listen to what she says.
--[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.

I'd say this is probably the best option available because it lets us hold back from potentially provoking Rionna but still allows us to poke both her potential issue and check the clear seeds without actually inviting a fight by going after a sensitive issue.
 
Battleship_Fusou said:
Of course it's good logic. It's *catgirl* logic.


[X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
[X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
-[X]Listen to what she says.
--[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.

I'd say this is probably the best option available because it lets us hold back from potentially provoking Rionna but still allows us to poke both her potential issue and check the clear seeds without actually inviting a fight by going after a sensitive issue.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We'd probably need to acknowledge that we dangled it in her face and pulled it back if we did that. Say something like an apology or that the situation is turning you into kind of an erratic mess.

[X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
[X]'I know I'm being erratic, but could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
-[X]Listen to what she says.
--[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
The implicit lie is that we need her help with dewitching. It's a lie because we're capable of taking her power by force,
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Click to shrink...

I mean it's not really a lie. I think there's at least a 10% chance that trying to take her power will give Sayaka another error message. And even if Sayaka does end up taking it having someone who's had years to learn their power and only their power is probably going to help us get a lot more insights than someone who's had weeks splitting their attention between many powers.

We're not willing to sell our figurative souls over that but it's there.
 
A couple of thoughts I just had.

Manufacturing Trust: If we can't find a Geasguca, perhaps we can go drinking with Riona?

Maximum Cynicism Rebuttal that incorporates @PhDEevee's thoughts

[x]Neither of us want a fight. That's why I'm not leaving. I'm the first lead you've had in years. Either your gem blackens or you psyche yourself into trying to steal my soul. I've tasted a Witches despair firsthand. You don't deserve it. Nobody does.
 
Conjured Blade said:
We'd probably need to acknowledge that we dangled it in her face and pulled it back if we did that. Say something like an apology or that the situation is turning you into kind of an erratic mess.

[X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
[X]'I know I'm being erratic, but could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
-[X]Listen to what she says.
--[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Perhaps something more like "Since we're kinda at a pause, there was something I had wanted to get your opinion on when I heard you were coming here."
 
Battleship_Fusou said:
Perhaps something more like "Since we're kinda at a pause, there was something I had wanted to get your opinion on when I heard you were coming here."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Where would you have me put that? It seems kind of verbose to add into the vote.

Also back to :

[x]Kaizuki
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 7, 2018 at 8:08 AM, finished with 97 posts and 23 votes.
  • [X] If at any point she asks what we want from her: dewitching, the shades, not killing people if it could be avoided. Vocalize & explain dewitching first.
    [X] We haven't given up on this conversation yet because she has things we want.
    -[X] We can't help her because the two of us don't trust each other, no?
    --[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her: refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    [X] At this point, if dewitching hasn't already been brought up:
    -[X] Before you explore anything further, the two of you wouldn't happen to have a mutual interest in turning grief seeds back into soul gems, would you?
    [X] Trust is a hot commodity, but perhaps a substitute could be crafted in some manner?
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we want to make a soul gem. We need her soul vision.
    [X] Tell her we will get to fabricate a body. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] State that saving everybody is our goal.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly what Magical Girl life leads her to do, even though we are new.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time that she gave us the answers we want.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
    [x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
    -[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
Click to expand...
 
Redshirt Army said:
It's a lie because we're capable of taking her power by force,
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Click to shrink...
We don't know that. Sayaka couldn't copy our power, and she might not be able to copy Riona's either. She's never copied someone's power who wasn't willing, we haven't heard her answer on whether she wants to know the witchbomb, and there's no telling how long it would take her to learn to use Riona's power effectively.

We want Riona to work with us, if possible. We're willing to go it without her if she's intractable, but we'd rather have her help. And working with her is the most likely way we'll be able to redeem her.


[x] Why do we have to fight? She wants something. So do we. We can work together.
[x] Show her Aurora. Properly explain the Clear Seed: the sheer amount of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, that you'd been feeding it hope magic.
-[x] This might be the first step to turning a witch back into a person. We want to do that and we think she can help us.
 
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