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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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JarringToaster said:
This info is incorrect. The Cor Maleficus was an idea that was proposed by Umika, and rather than it being directly pulled from the Seed, it is the actual heart of a Witch that seems to have been restrained with magic. The purpose of the Cor Maleficus was to use the magic of Witches to keep the clones going rather than the Pleiades needing constantly feed the clones magic to keep them alive. As for how the Pleiades managed to use the Cor Maleficus for thirteen different clones other than farming for thirteen different Witches, I have no idea.
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By all indications, it seemed like their clones were grown up Familiars that were brainwashed into thinking they were still a cute girl, so...
 
Shadowhisker said:
Eh. There's always other worlds. We're going to hand to do something about the Incubators.
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Physycal Goddess Sayaka uses massive clones and brainwashing powers to turn all the Incubators into being Good.

We just need to get her a bunch more power and tape a few Clear Seeds to her Gem...

:thonk: What if Sayaka copied Homura's power somehow sent a clone back in time? To the beginning of civilization? Or the universe? And then got to preside over the entire universe-

OK, OK, I know. Better leave this thread of thought for, say, next week. She should be powerful enough by then, right? :V
 
AuraTwilight said:
I should clarify my theorizing: I'm saying that what we attribute as Feathers (barrier fuckery, invisitext, etc) and what Oriko attributes to Feathers (vision blockage, people dying mysteriously) are different.

In the latter case, we're already seeing a strong possibility that Rionna is the reason for the deaths. Oriko's shade could hypothetically block her past self's visions.

So uh. There's a very strong reason why I'm worried about this possibility.

Riona's witch name is Irkalla, a version of the underworld ruled by the goddess Ereshkigal.

Ereshkigal is characterized as having wings with black feathers in some of her depictions, most notably in The Descent of Inanna, one of her most characteristic myths, where the named character goes into the Underworld to bargain with her for the release of a soul.

I know we meme about this sort of shit all the time but Riona might actually be (part of the phenomena we are mistakenly personifying as having a single cause known as) Feathers.
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I don't like this line of argument. Saying that Feathers is multiple entities, despite all of them having the same unifying symbol of yanno, the feathers, strikes me as multiplying possibilities for no good reason.

Now, making it a conglomerate entity is another matter, but that still runs into the fact that said entity is present in the here and now, acting before Rionna ever even heard of us, and it still runs into the issue that the only Time Travel we even know of is Homura, who's power... simply does not work that way.

I'm extremely wary of acting on a hunch with so few lines of supporting evidence. Particularly after we've been so wrong before, so recently, and especially if that turns someone against us.

EDIT: That's regardless of whether or not we're correct.

If we're wrong we've potentially permanently alienated an innocent, and lost a lot in doing so. But if we're right? We've made an enemy, and lacking evidence and justifiable cause, if they have any friends or manage to survive the first strike we've made them into a martyr.

And both ways everyone else sees us go raring off like a loose cannon at the drop of a hat. Thought the political/hospitality side of things has already been discussed here.
 
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Shadowhisker said:
Eh. There's always other worlds. We're going to hand to do something about the Incubators.
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Maybe we can pull a Homu and have all the incubators kill all dem witches.

On a serious note, I hope this quest doesn't pull a Meow Quest where we have to fight KB (though I wouldn't be surprised if it did). Because I seriously doubt we can pull the same dues ex kitten that Meow Quest did.
 
I mean, we really can't let the Incubator keep operating as it has been. For all the reactions that Rionna has gotten, what QB does is literally millions of times worse.

That doesn't necessarily mean fighting it, but we can't just let it be.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, we really can't let the Incubator keep operating as it has been. For all the reactions that Rionna has gotten, what QB does is literally millions of times worse.

That doesn't necessarily mean fighting it, but we can't just let it be.
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Hence my proposal for trying to point Rionna at them as an insurance policy. If they actually want to stamp us out directly(we find them trying it unlikely but Rionna doesn't need to know), they're going to want to get rid of our power completely. Rionna gets our power, she'll probably have no choice but to pick up where we left off(and/or become god and kill all the incubators). Pull a Baenlixnaire with the Incubators as the Fates, for those who read Even Further Beyond.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I mean, we really can't let the Incubator keep operating as it has been. For all the reactions that Rionna has gotten, what QB does is literally millions of times worse.

That doesn't necessarily mean fighting it, but we can't just let it be.
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If KB doesn't actively stop us from spreading the cleansing... the most likely explanation is that it can calculate a pretty damned high chance our whole work will crumble on its own.

If we are to get anywhere, we're gonna need to do something about KB. At the very least find ways to pay him off.

The amounts of energy KB's after probably boggle the imagination, but we could probably hax something is all work together? Maybe? Perhaps?

I'm really doubtful about that far in the future. :/
 
The Phoenixian said:
I don't like this line of argument. Saying that Feathers is multiple entities, despite all of them having the same unifying symbol of yanno, the feathers, strikes me as multiplying possibilities for no good reason.

Now, making it a conglomerate entity is another matter, but that still runs into the fact that said entity is present in the here and now, acting before Rionna ever even heard of us, and it still runs into the issue that the only Time Travel we even know of is Homura, who's power... simply does not work that way.

I'm extremely wary of acting on a hunch with so few lines of supporting evidence. Particularly after we've been so wrong before, so recently, and especially if that turns someone against us.

EDIT: That's regardless of whether or not we're correct.

If we're wrong we've potentially permanently alienated an innocent, and lost a lot in doing so. But if we're right? We've made an enemy, and lacking evidence and justifiable cause, if they have any friends or manage to survive the first strike we've made them into a martyr.

And both ways everyone else sees us go raring off like a loose cannon at the drop of a hat. Thought the political/hospitality side of things has already been discussed here.
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Allow me to paint a scenario. Oriko sees black feathers, and the idea of meeting Sabrina again even after she is gemsmashed.

Riona, for whatever reason, decides to steal Oriko's soul and try to hurt us. "I want your power," let's say. Riona steels Oriko's soul and Oriko's Shade blocks her own visions in the past.

Riona proceeds to steal the souls of everyone else Oriko predicted seeing dead with no injuries of any kind, which includes Sayaka, Homura, and Madoka at least.

Riona having those powersets is super dangerous, and also paints a pattern of "I killed and enslaved all your friends. If you want their souls back, surrender."

If there's anything I can think of that would actually make Sabrina flip the fuck out and Witch Out/kill someone, it's that. If anything can make Sabrina griefspiral and witch out, it's that.

In this hypothetical future, Riona creates Dedolere, who uses its grief-control to control Irkalla, and thus her powers, and thus absorb everyone's souls and powers.

Bad shit happens.

Dedolere, either to create herself in a timeloop or to prevent this future, uses Homura's magic to reach back in time, and uses Riona's magic to meld all these stolen souls together into one soul that knows everything Sabrina knows, and has all of her potential by way of being Madoka+others.

Dedolere creates Sabrina, a construct created out of the souls of all her dead friends, as a way of saving them/changing the future.

Feathers, explained.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, we really can't let the Incubator keep operating as it has been. For all the reactions that Rionna has gotten, what QB does is literally millions of times worse.

That doesn't necessarily mean fighting it, but we can't just let it be.
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I'm just wondering what we would do if the KB collective decided they didn't like us.

How would we go about fighting a bunch of space aliens with superior technology? Sure, we have grief but, there's that pesky range limit. 100m is nothing when you start talking space travel.

We need to collaborate with tech gucas.
 
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Norad the Borad said:
I'm just wondering what we would do if the KB collective decided they didn't like us.

How would we go about fighting a bunch of space aliens with superior technology? Sure, we have grief but, there's that pesky range limit. 100m is nothing when you start talking space travel.

We need to collaborate with tech guca's.
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Yeah. In the event KB took direct action(unlikely). We'd basically need levels of firepower that enable you to say things like "All the lights in the sky may be my enemy, but that simply means I must strike them all down" and be completely literal.

We could always test our theories about inducing a vacuum metastability event to do that but that's a bad end scenario.
 
Conjured Blade said:
Yeah. In the event KB took direct action(unlikely). We'd basically need levels of firepower that enable you to say things like "All the lights in the sky may be my enemy, but that simply means I must strike them all down" and be completely literal.

We could always test our theories about inducing a vacuum metastability event to do that but that's a bad end scenario.
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Basically, we need a lot of high power gucas and thinker/tech gucas. That would be the ultimate Kyubey safety.

Kyubey is highly technologically advanced? Fine. Get gucas who can at least make technology/technology enhanced with magic that can defend against KB.

We should plot this in a privacy sphere/using privacy bracelets.
 
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One suspicious point about Oriko visions is that she didn't see any future in which she survived the month.

I really, really doubt there are no such possibilities at all, so that points towards the idea that Oriko's visions tended to show her bad futures, due to suicidal feelings... maybe even because Oriko wanted those futures, it might have been a less than conscious choice.

I mean, I think this is the point of her rejecting her Wish. Her Wish she made while feeling suicidal thoughts, very bad Wish, no good. Better she doesn't have that death-seeking power, and finds a good path on her own.

So, Riona being dangerous as she seems, we're gonna have to be careful in how we Social her. Very, very careful. It's possible Oriko's visions tended to show soulless husks of people because that's one of the more likely ways for shit to go wrong. Maybe Oriko's powers liked Riona. :V



... Thought, Sayaka's prophesied death was around this point (somewhere around tomorrow, so today counts), but were there any prophesied deaths with similar effects (deSoul) before this date, that we know of?
 
AuraTwilight said:
Allow me to paint a scenario. Oriko sees black feathers, and the idea of meeting Sabrina again even after she is gemsmashed.

Riona, for whatever reason, decides to steal Oriko's soul and try to hurt us. "I want your power," let's say. Riona steels Oriko's soul and Oriko's Shade blocks her own visions in the past.

Riona proceeds to steal the souls of everyone else Oriko predicted seeing dead with no injuries of any kind, which includes Sayaka, Homura, and Madoka at least.

Riona having those powersets is super dangerous, and also paints a pattern of "I killed and enslaved all your friends. If you want their souls back, surrender."

If there's anything I can think of that would actually make Sabrina flip the fuck out and Witch Out/kill someone, it's that. If anything can make Sabrina griefspiral and witch out, it's that.

In this hypothetical future, Riona creates Dedolere, who uses its grief-control to control Irkalla, and thus her powers, and thus absorb everyone's souls and powers.

Bad shit happens.

Dedolere, either to create herself in a timeloop or to prevent this future, uses Homura's magic to reach back in time, and uses Riona's magic to meld all these stolen souls together into one soul that knows everything Sabrina knows, and has all of her potential by way of being Madoka+others.

Dedolere creates Sabrina, a construct created out of the souls of all her dead friends, as a way of saving them/changing the future.

Feathers, explained.
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We're aware of the plot of Tart Magica. Soul amalgamation can't explain that.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Jul 31, 2018 at 10:58 PM, finished with 142325 posts and 69 votes.
  • [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    -[X] Don't monologue. Listen to Rionna, give her a chance to expand or explain her perspective.
    -[X] Don't judge what you don't understand. Inquire.
    [X] Explain you're creating a better world.
    -[X] Admit Riona's actions as claimed might have been necessary in the past.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes regarding implementing justice, protection, equity and accountability for Magical Girls. (etc.)
    --[X] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary.
    -[X] Explain free cleansing distribution.
    --[X] Clear Seeds, upsides and downsides. Need for a better, moral solution.
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] You're creating a network to work on it. You hope Riona can help.
    [X] You want to work together.
    -[X] You are afraid to trust her with a Clear Seed yet, since you don't know her.
    --[X] Invite Riona to stick around, free cleansing as long as she stays, get to know each other.
    --[X] Ask again that she considers working together.
    -[X] Regarding her claims:
    --[X] You can't abide her taking any more Souls, for reasons stated; moral, ethical and practical concerns.
    --[X] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken.
    ---[X] Part of the standards we want to set are humane treatment, for everyone.
    ---[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary. You know that it'll take time.
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [x] Redshirt Army
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
    -[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
    -[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
    -[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] You're disgusted and want to make that kind of justice unnecessary. You've got the resources to do things more humanely than her and intend to acquire more.
    [X]Riona wants what you have. You want to replicate what you have. Ubiquitous, widespread, cleansing. Widespread enough to risk making Kyubey take more direct action. If he's part of a T4 Kardashev species that could be very bad.
    [X]You can make grief seeds last longer, ease their suffering but that doesn't actually solve the prisoner inside them.
    [X]According to Kyubey witchification staves off the heat death of the universe with the largest energy yields. You don't buy that though. Probably another half truth.
    [X]If the worst happens, if you're slain, the dream must not die with you. Stop taking souls. Work with you to evaluate souls for rebodiment or release into whatever afterlife exists. Free cleansing for life and she gets to be your insurance policy if she can claim you.
    [x] Onmar
    [x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
    [x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
    [x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
    [x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
    [x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
    [x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
    -[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    --[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] Hear her out if she explains.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Can the Souls be restored or otherwise released to wherever they go after death?
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportunity to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    --[X] Perhaps we seem too idealistic and naive, and we know that sometimes a horrible criminal just can't be redeemed. Still, we want to try.
    [X] Don't grant approval, but give body language and cues that she should keep talking at any time.
    -[X] Use active listening, adding "go on" and "so,?" etc. to encourage her to talk more.
    [X] Remain calm. There are worse people, and she didn't come to assault us.
    [X] Rionna is speaking like she hasn't trusted anyone in a long time.
    -[X] At some later point, explain our real magic is about working together. We will show her.
    [X] Rionna is probably both inebriated, and full of anxiety... enough to tank negotiations to escape her pain?
    -[X] Her brashness is a front. She is very defensive ATM.
    -[X] She told us to judge her, as a way to deal with us doing just that. This has happened to her before. Powers discrimination?
    -[X] Rionna has a simple morality that she believes in very strongly.
    --[X] She is not a good philosopher, there are contradictions
    --[X] She isn't very wise
    ---[X] or mature, though she is playing at the role of adulthood in the way she understands how.
    [X] Talk about Rionna.
    -[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
    --[X] Don't follow up about sister
    --[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
    [X] Learn her actual wish, and contract story.
    -[X] Generic answer was not enough. We need to know her.
    [X] Our basic help is free to her
    -[X] we are more than a simple charity
    -[X] artificial Grief Seeds are needed
    -[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
    -[X] Does her ideal world look more like Mitakihara?
    -[X] Serious about de-witching
    [X] Will she stay with us a while?
    [X] Ask details about her powers. What she does with them in her city. Things she wants to try, but hasn't
    [X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Describe our soul. Meet our friends, and see proof. How does her telepathy work?
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    -[X] Don't monologue. Listen to Rionna, give her a chance to expand or explain her perspective.
    [X] Explain you're creating a better world.
    -[X] Admit Riona's actions as claimed might have been necessary in the past.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes regarding implementing justice, protection, equity and accountability for Magical Girls. (etc.)
    --[X] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary.
    -[X] Explain free cleansing distribution.
    --[X] Clear Seeds, upsides and downsides. Need for a better, moral solution.
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] You're creating a network to work on it. You hope Riona can help.
    [X] You want to work together.
    -[X] You are afraid to trust her with a Clear Seed yet, since you don't know her.
    --[X] Invite Riona to stick around, free cleansing as long as she stays, get to know each other.
    --[X] Ask again that she considers working together.
    -[X] Regarding her claims:
    --[X] You can't abide her taking any more Souls, for reasons stated; moral, ethical and practical concerns.
    --[X] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken, at least those taken by force.
    ---[X] Part of the standards we want to set are humane treatment.
    ---[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary. You know that it'll take time.
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We still haven't found how Sayaka getting Witch kissed happened, have we?

Ah, should we ask Riona to get a look at the feather, if we get the opportunity later?



... At some point I really want to get Oriko in a privacy sphere, promise to keep her secrets and to not act on anything she confides in us if necessary, and beg she lets us knows about any prior misdirections or lies she's had us on. Promise to believe her if she tells us there's nothing truly important she's kept. :/
 
AuraTwilight said:
It sure as fuck could. She can go to previous timelines apparently arbitrarily, and Witch magic often works differently anyway.

And who knows what the fuck happens to Homura's magic when you add Madoka's potential to it.
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One, "going to previous timelines" is a very different beast from "going back to the start and/or an arbitrary point of a previous timeline." If she could do the latter, she would not be trapped in this maze, while the former does not jive with the explanations for Homura's power. Certainly, all I'm aware of certainly is her coming back to the point she left off.


Two: As Redshirt says, at this point you're invoking way too many moving parts, where we have little evidence it even works that way by Firn's interpretation.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Sure, but it complicates the scenario. More priors, ergo less likely.
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It at least requires less bullshit than UKG theory.

Conjured Blade said:
We're aware of the plot of Tart Magica. Soul amalgamation can't explain that.
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Depends on which souls go into the pot. :U But more seriously, we still witnessed Madokami. What if this is where she inserts her divine intervention instead of a dewitched Walpy?

Hell, what if Madokami is able to effect us because we're a Bootstrap Paradox and thus have no actual First Cause and thus shouldn't exist? (also, hmmm, Bootstrap paradox... hilarious bootstrapping process...)

The Phoenixian said:
One, "going to previous timelines" is a very different beast from "going back to the start and/or an arbitrary point of a previous timeline." If she could do the latter, she would not be trapped in this maze, while the former does not jive with the explanations for Homura's power. Certainly, all I'm aware of certainly is her coming back to the point she left off.


Two: As Redshirt says, at this point you're invoking way too many moving parts, where we have little evidence it even works that way by Firn's interpretation.
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Homura can apparently go back to when she last left a previous Timeline, she just has no reason to do so. In the case of Sabrina, well...

Hell, we don't even have to do that. There's an entry point for Sabrina, and that's "bleeding in an alley." So if 'Sabrina' uses Homura's magic to go to another timeline, that's where she ends up, isn't it?
 
Onmur said:
At some point I really want to get Oriko in a privacy sphere, promise to keep her secrets and to not act on anything she confides in us if necessary, and beg she lets us knows about any prior misdirections or lies she's had us on. Promise to believe her if she tells us there's nothing truly important she's kept. :/
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I second this. Asking Oriko if she's lying or not might get us somewhere now that she doesn't have her precognition.
 
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