Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Sure why not on Onmurs protovote. Edit: @E1ChristO I was going for Onmurs protovote sorry if you want to unlike mine.


[X] Take a moment to calm down.
-[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.

[X] Explain you're creating a better world.
-[X] Admit Riona's actions as claimed might have been necessary in the past.
-[X] Explain your work and hopes regarding implementing justice, protection, equity and accountability for Magical Girls. (etc.)
--[X] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary (and become immoral).
-[X] Explain free cleansing distribution.
--[X] Clear Seeds, upsides and downsides. Need for a better, moral solution.
-[X] De-Witching.
--[X] You're creating a network to work on it. You hope Riona can help.

[X] You want to work together.
-[X] You are afraid to trust her with a Clear Seed yet. Invite Riona to stick around, free cleansing as long as she stays, get to know each other.
--[X] Ask again that she considers working together.
-[X] Regarding her claims:
--[X] You can't abide her taking any more Souls, for reasons stated; moral, ethical and practical concerns.
--[X] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken, at least those taken by force.
---[X] Part of the standards we want to set are humane treatment.
---[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
 
Last edited:
Man, I was watching Shin Godzilla and then took an hour break from that to keep votecrafting the vote that keeps on giving (stress), and I have to say, this vote engages me far more than the movie.

I'll relax from social votecrafting by going back to watch the science fiction documental about a kaiju attack against a rigid system, and its many ramifications on the political side of things, and how that affects- holy shit nuclear fire.

Yes, that will help my energy levels go down.

:p

EDIT: Will wait for critique before X'ing in new vote.
 
Last edited:
BTW, I should point out, while I do not condone creating soul-slaves out of people, if we take Riona's claims of only soul-taking murderers, evil Meguca, and other such at face value, is it really any better or worse than any other form of vigilantism (disregarding protagonist-centered morality), such as hunting down and killing/assassinating reprehensible criminals, or starting a violent revolution to overthrow a corrupt government even though it will mean that there will be civilian casualties (ala Code Geass or Akame ga Kill), or altering a criminal's mental state to get them to confess their crimes (ala Persona 5 or Code Geass)?

Would it have been better if Riona just stood by and do nothing when there were people who were murdering, raping, and otherwise grossly abusing their power and authority?


In any case, we need to know the circumstances of the situations in which Riona took those Souls. Also, if the theory that Riona's sister was an unintentional victim of her power is true, would Riona be reluctant to let go of the Souls because it would mean saying goodbye to her sister?

Or more tragically, an alternative theory is that Riona Soul-shaded her sister because said sister was a Meguca who was intentionally using her powers for evil, selfish purposes? And because Riona was the only one who could stop her but otherwise did not want to permanently end the only family she had (assuming that Riona does not have any living parents and relatives)?
 
E1ChristO said:
BTW, I should point out, while I do not condone creating soul-slaves out of people, if we take Riona's claims of only soul-taking murderers, evil Meguca, and other such at face value, is it really any better or worse than any other form of vigilantism (disregarding protagonist-centered morality), such as hunting down and killing/assassinating reprehensible criminals, or starting a violent revolution to overthrow a corrupt government even though it will mean that there will be civilian casualties (ala Code Geass or Akame ga Kill), or altering a criminal's mental state to get them to confess their crimes (ala Persona 5 or Code Geass)?

Would it have been better if Riona just stood by and do nothing when there were people who were murdering, raping, and otherwise grossly abusing their power and authority?


In any case, we need to know the circumstances of the situations in which Riona took those Souls. Also, if the theory that Riona's sister was an unintentional victim of her power is true, would Riona be reluctant to let go of the Souls because it would mean saying goodbye to her sister?

Or more tragically, an alternative theory is that Riona Soul-shaded her sister because said sister was a Meguca who was intentionally using her powers for evil, selfish purposes? And because Riona was the only one who could stop her but otherwise did not want to permanently end the only family she had (assuming that Riona does not have any living parents and relatives)?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Or for a third theory, Riona's sister Witched and so that's why she's so interested in griefbenders, and so harsh when one turns out false. She still has the seed.
 
[X] Onmur

Tch, the voting system didn't count my vote when I put it below my explanation.

Below, is my personal reasoning.

I think we need to at least hear Riona out before we try to body kill her. We heard Oriko out. We heard Ishnomaki out. We heard the Tokyo and University groups out. We've tried to listen to every other meguca we've encountered. We've tried our hardest to be fair. Lets not stop here. We're safest in our bubble, so lets question her before we do anything rash.

Yes, stealing souls is bad. I get that. But so is lighting a house on fire. So is withholding grief seeds from people you know need it. So is murdering two people on a bus. So is familiar farming.

We gave everyone who did this a chance. Familiar farming is just as bad as murder- you're letting people die for grief seeds. Withholding grief seeds- also as bad as murder.

Yes, the people who did these things didn't have powers that were this dangerous, but we have a handle on Riona right now. Lets use it.

I'm not saying I'm against putting her in the freezer, I'm saying we need to listen to her and tell/ask her to change her ways. If/when she says no, then we can put her in the freezer.
Adhoc vote count started by Norad the Borad on Jul 31, 2018 at 12:09 AM, finished with 142211 posts and 66 votes.
  • [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] Hear her out if she explains.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] Explain you're creating a better world.
    -[X] Admit Riona's actions as claimed might have been necessary in the past.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes regarding implementing justice, protection, equity and accountability for Magical Girls. (etc.)
    --[X] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary (and become immoral).
    -[X] Explain free cleansing distribution.
    --[X] Clear Seeds, upsides and downsides. Need for a better, moral solution.
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] You're creating a network to work on it. You hope Riona can help.
    [X] You want to work together.
    -[X] You are afraid to trust her with a Clear Seed yet. Invite Riona to stick around, free cleansing as long as she stays, get to know each other.
    --[X] Ask again that she considers working together.
    -[X] Regarding her claims:
    --[X] You can't abide her taking any more Souls, for reasons stated; moral, ethical and practical concerns.
    --[X] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken, at least those taken by force.
    ---[X] Part of the standards we want to set are humane treatment.
    ---[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
    -[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
    -[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
    -[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
    [x] Redshirt Army
    [x] Onmar
    [X] continue discussion.
    -[X] artificial Grief Seeds
    -[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
    [X] Will she stay with us a while?
    [x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
    [x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
    [x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
    [x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
    [x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
    [x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
    -[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    --[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're building a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claiming. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's forcibly taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] Hear her out if she explains.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Can the Souls be restored or otherwise released to wherever they go after death?
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportunity to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    --[X] Perhaps we seem too idealistic and naive, and we know that sometimes a horrible criminal just can't be redeemed. Still, we want to try.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
One more thing: IF we agree to letting her stay for a while, we might want to consider limiting her contact with Madoka and Sayaka.

Of course, we would have to make the obligatory pitch for her help against Walpurgisnacht, if only because Homura might consider her power useful for that.
 
Shit I forgot to include Happy Grief in the vote. Does that need to be in this vote? The next, or later? Are there more things I forgot, now that we're elaborating? Why don't I have a microwave? Because the old one broke and I don't feel a need to get a new one.

E1ChristO said:
BTW, I should point out, while I do not condone creating soul-slaves out of people, if we take Riona's claims of only soul-taking murderers, evil Meguca, and other such at face value, is it really any better or worse than any other form of vigilantism (disregarding protagonist-centered morality), such as hunting down and killing/assassinating reprehensible criminals, or starting a violent revolution to overthrow a corrupt government even though it will mean that there will be civilian casualties (ala Code Geass or Akame ga Kill), or altering a criminal's mental state to get them to confess their crimes (ala Persona 5 or Code Geass)?

Would it have been better if Riona just stood by and do nothing when there were people who were murdering, raping, and otherwise grossly abusing their power and authority?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

A simple objection to Riona's actions is that keeping 'slaves' makes her... a person who would keep slaves, treat humans as a resource. In time, even if she started with the best intentions, this might corrupt her horribly. Most likely, I'd say.

Furthermore, the fact that Riona's choice of solution is one that empowers her points towards less than moral motivations.

... And here I have to delete a bunch of text to say there's so much we just don't know. We need to know more about Riona, her powers, and her victims, before we can make good decisions.

If nothing else, I believe we'd want every soul to have a chance at salvation, for Madokami's sake, if nothing else.
 
@Onmur: Overall I'm fine with the new vote, though I feel some of the wording is problematic. Like, just saying "I want to make it unnecessary" is fine, but adding on "and immoral" doesn't seem helpful. Secondly, most of the souls were likely taken forcibly, so something like "together we can evaluate who to free" seems a better angle. Finally, it should be clearer why Sabrina doesn't trust her with a Clear Seed- Pointing out she doesn't actually know Riona is a practical reason.
 
BTW, bit of a derail, but @Firnagzen I have a question: I see a "Perth Group" of Meguca in the Day Planner, but I can't recall any mention of them in the story. Have they been mentioned at all, and when?
 
If only we had the aide of our boon companion @Torgamous!

I apologize for crossing roles, but we need this now. Right now.

Keep the moral statements in voting more simple, and remove any confrontational language! why?

Fear and aggression would become a problem. Why?

Well, now. What's in the flask?

Prior posts almost got there...


Rionna is having some liquid courage.
 
[] Take a moment to calm down.
-[] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.

[] Explain you're creating a better world.
-[] Admit Riona's actions as claimed might have been necessary in the past.
-[] Explain your work and hopes regarding implementing justice, protection, equity and accountability for Magical Girls. (etc.)
--[] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary.
-[] Explain free cleansing distribution.
--[] Clear Seeds, upsides and downsides. Need for a better, moral solution.
-[] De-Witching.
--[] You're creating a network to work on it. You hope Riona can help.

[] You want to work together.
-[] You are afraid to trust her with a Clear Seed yet, since you don't know her.
--[] Invite Riona to stick around, free cleansing as long as she stays, get to know each other.
--[] Ask again that she considers working together.
-[] Regarding her claims:
--[] You can't abide her taking any more Souls, for reasons stated; moral, ethical and practical concerns.
--[] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken, at least those taken by force.
---[] Part of the standards we want to set are humane treatment.
---[] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.

Kkutlord said:
@Onmur: Overall I'm fine with the new vote, though I feel some of the wording is problematic. Like, just saying "I want to make it unnecessary" is fine, but adding on "and immoral" doesn't seem helpful. Secondly, most of the souls were likely taken forcibly, so something like "together we can evaluate who to free" seems a better angle. Finally, it should be clearer why Sabrina doesn't trust her with a Clear Seed- Pointing out she doesn't actually know Riona is a practical reason.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Made a couple of edits.

On the 'who to free' thing, I think we would like to free all of them... unless the captive souls chose to be captive, for whatever reason they had. So, at least as far as I see it, there would be little to evaluate.

SaltyWaffles said:
"So what's her power?"

"Bread."

"...bread? Like, she summons bread? Or shoots bread? Or can turn into bread? Or turns things into bread?"

"Yes."

"...huh."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"And she hates it."

"Memes?"

"Memes."
 
Last edited:
In the interest of linking the BASQUE derail back into the current discussion (which was like watching a trainwreck in reverse):

We should break bread with Rion+na over another home-cooked meal we made with Mami :V
 
Last edited:
I mean, freeing them all would be ideal, but realistically making that "as soon as possible" is gonna require a lot of work- Making sure the willfully shameless ones don't become a "from nobody to nightmare", making sure Riona can protect herself, making sure the more problematic ones behave, and figuring out how to make bodies. Ultimately, focusing on "evaluation" lets Sabrina work things out first so that dealing with the more difficult ones will be easier.

Overall though, I'm fine with the vote even as is. Like, I'm pretty sure Riona will point out they're mostly by force, but I doubt that'll do much more than get Sabrina funny looks.
 
Simplification based on Rionna's drunkenness.

[X] Take a moment to calm down.
-[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.

[X] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary. You've got the resources to do things more humanely than her and intend to acquire more. She should stop.
-[x]You can make grief seeds last longer, ease their suffering but that doesn't actually solve the prisoner inside them.
-[x]No matter how much you may want to, you can't work with her on research or long term cleansing unless she stops taking souls though. She should also be prepared to reopen cases with you if she can release them to where souls go/rebody them, and to join you on researching a means of doing so if she can't. We're going to need artificial bodies if dewitching bears fruit anyways.
 
Last edited:
It would be right to talk-no-jutsu the heck out of her while she's drunk. We start to do that! It is tedious, but the odds are good.
So for openers, I say we REFUSE TO JUDGE HER AT ALL YET.

She is trying to force us to judge her. Break the motion, leave her without a plan. That will get her farther into our power.
Don't follow up on the Shades at this instant, wait on it. Seriously! Our power literally excluded them, for the first time since she made one.

Giving her a Clear Seed does not fix her problems, gifting her with a Sabrina will help, everyone really.

No Clear Seed for Rionna. We need for time to pass before we can take that risk. And she would probably benefit from spending time with us, isolation being the least concrete issue.

Bringing simplicity to the vote. Our need is information gathering, and perhaps building rapport. More material in vote than one update.

First, map the territory -

[X] Don't grant approval, but give body language and cues that she should keep talking at any time.
-[X] Use active listening, adding "go on" and "so,?" etc. to encourage her to talk more.
[X] Remain calm. There are worse people, and she didn't come to assault us.
[X] Rionna is speaking like she hasn't trusted anyone in a long time.
-[X] At some later point, explain our real magic is about working together. We will show her.
[X] Rionna is probably both inebriated, and full of anxiety... enough to tank negotiations to escape her pain?
-[X] Her brashness is a front. She is very defensive ATM.
-[X] She told us to judge her, as a way to deal with us doing just that. This has happened to her before. Powers discrimination?
-[X] Rionna has a simple morality that she believes in very strongly.
--[X] She is not a good philosopher, there are contradictions
--[X] She isn't very wise
---[X] or mature, though she is playing at the role of adulthood in the way she understands how.

Now, LISTEN. Find the heart of the matter -

[X] Talk about Rionna.
-[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
--[X] Don't follow up about sister
--[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
[X] Learn her actual wish, and contract story.
-[X] Generic answer was not enough. We need to know her.
[X] Our basic help is free to her
-[X] we are more than a simple charity
-[X] artificial Grief Seeds are needed
-[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
-[X] Does her ideal world look more like Mitakihara?
-[X] Serious about de-witching
[X] Will she stay with us a while?
[X] Ask details about her powers. What she does with them in her city. Things she wants to try, but hasn't
[X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Describe our soul. Meet our friends, and see proof. How does her telepathy work?
Onmur said:
I don't think she's drunk.



Not alcoholic.

Whether that's for the better or for the worse is up in the air. :p
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If it is "courage" or other emotion fortified, she is still trying to medicate her way through the encounter, right? Further, she seems to be setting herself up for rejection. I wouldn't be surprised if she wanted to "take the edge off" of her pain. Also, our kind sponsors do not have complete first amendment freedom as a goal here. I doubt that there "could" be alcohol in her drink?
 
Last edited:
Onmur said:
--[X] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken, at least those taken by force.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I still don't see the purpose of the "at least those taken by force" line. While it's possible that there are people who willing gave her their soul as some sort of heroic sacrifice, I doubt that's enough examples to merit mention.

In general, I think we shouldn't refer to the release as if it's something that's going to happen in a matter of minutes. She can no more do that than we can cease the use of Grief Seeds and Clear Seeds--of little girls' souls--the instant we develop dewitching. We'll need to develop a replacement for them, and even then, phasing them out is going to be a process. A long, difficult one.

(Never forget that we too are keeping souls in limbo and using them to our own ends in the name of "necessity.")
 
The Narrator said:
I still don't see the purpose of the "at least those taken by force" line. While it's possible that there are people who willing gave her their soul as some sort of heroic sacrifice, I doubt that's enough examples to merit mention.

In general, I think we shouldn't refer to the release as if it's something that's going to happen in a matter of minutes. She can no more do that than we can cease the use of Grief Seeds and Clear Seeds--of little girls' souls--the instant we develop dewitching. We'll need to develop a replacement for them, and even then, phasing them out is going to be a process. A long, difficult one.

(Never forget that we too are keeping souls in limbo and using them to our own ends in the name of "necessity.")
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
My thinking is that Riona will probably see us (demanding) asking her to release all the souls as an offense, as us trying to force her to give up her power. I want to mitigate that, push towards the moral side of things; if anybody chose to become one of Riona's soul slaves, I guess we can't interfere there. Everyone else, though...
 
Cider drinking/flask appearances and what Riona wants.

You catch up with Riona at the taxi stand, joining the queue. She unzips her belt pouch, pulling out a metal flask and sipping.

... there's magic in that flask. Faint enough that you didn't pick up on it with a cursory look in there, and she is definitely drinking it.

Riona catches you looking. She sloshes the flask in your general direction, raising her eyebrows.

"No, but thank you," you say. Nadia warnedyou about the stuff. You... don't think it's harmful. You're pretty sure she would have mentioned if it were, but you're awfully suspicious of the magic in there.

She shrugs, and takes another sip.

It smells awful. Not alcoholic, or if there is, there's so little it's drowned out by something sharply acidic, almost like curdled milk. Mami wrinkles her nose, leaning against your side.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"Tch," Rionna says. She breaks the eye contact, taking a pull from her flask. "Ask."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"I want what everyone wants," Rionna says, and fixes an unblinking gaze on you. "I seepeople's Souls. I know what happens. I want what you have."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Actually," you say. "A... side question, if you don't mind."

Rionna sighs, taking another long pull from her flask. "Yerra, y' can't help me at all, can you? Y' can't exactly give me your magic, I doubt you're willing to give me your Soul, and I wager I'd have a fight on m' hands if I tried to take it."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Pr'bably," Rionna says, shrugging again. She gives her flask a faintly mournful look before taking another swig from it. "Y'know what I mean by fake?"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"Judge all y' want," Rionna says, shrugging. She caps her flask and sets it aside
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top