I think that we can short-circuit this entire digression with a link to the wiki page on enlightened self-interest. Following links out from that page should adequately substitute for what would have been discussed, and with remarkably less fighting.
 
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You seem to be of the beliefe that centering ones personality on their own self interest (being self centered) is a bad thing to do, to the point of not being able to understand that self interest that stops one from having a interest in others is a self contradiction; i am of the beliefe that any life situation that would cause someone to form such a beliefe would be horrible even if it were optimal to the formation of personhood in all other aspects. I do apologise that the way that i attempted to convey my beliefe had the side effect of implying that your life situation was otherwise detrimental to your, well, to your life.

You can continue to believe that what i am saying means something other then what it is most likely to mean if you like; i imagine that, what with all the possible interpritations of what you have just said, it is quite the recreation for you.



I don't. I mean "rightly so" in the sense that nothing else could be expected of her other then to have their own self interest (in the sense of being able to continue to form interests and goals, but contuning to exist.) as her highest priority, and i believe that to be the case because i believe that she is what is left from a mixed semple of those who did and those who didn't, exactly because of said trait.

Her being self centered is right, because it is the only possibility that could exist, or prediction that could match the data.
First, I insist, as much as I hate repeating myself even with different words, the first statement I challenged of yours, and asked you to re-consider, was definitely not that it is right to be self-centered for that should logically move one self to care about others, it was that it was right to be self-centered. On its own. Not as a first step into moving towards not being self-centered. Which is actually the opposite thing.

A foundation is not an end, it's a start.

To be self-centered is not healthy, right, and moral, that's why we move on from it. It's necessary for a human being comes into the world caring and believing only in themselves and it is from experience, caring and cognitive development that they learn to care about others, ultimatly for the purpose of caring about others in and of itself, which does not imply not caring about oneself.

This is, of course, horribly difficult and complicated, but if there's one single thing right in your post, it's that I do believe a human being shouldn't be self-centered, but only as meaning they should (necessarily, as we are social beings) have other important interests around which to build their life upon. Tangentially, if I may add, the (temporary) abandonment of one own's well being for the purpose of helping others is, in fact, seen as something heroic and laudable in many parts of the world.

In short, and not being just to the topic for I want to derail this thread no longer, I believe a moral human being needs to learn to step away from their egocentrism and truly insert themselves into a (healthy) society (if there is one available), become a part of the whole (without losing themselves to it!), and care for the well being of the others, of the group, society, humanity, for it's own sake.

We start our lives being completely self centered. From there we must move on. It is not right to be so, beyond what's necessary to grow from it.

Lastly, I find your reading of my words to be wholly inappropriate, and to make assumptions and inject opinions I have never partaked upon; please refrain from telling me what you believe I think unless you can provide quotes showing you me to express such beliefs.


EDIT: Oh, and, "side effect". Right. Not completely out of the blue, unrelated, pretentious, offensive comment you have no right to make. Or apparently care about, which further makes me wonder what makes you think you have the right. "Side effect."

Problem is Sakura, much like many other magical girls I presume, has reverted to a subsistence mindset. She's basically a cave woman, philosophically: no care for anyone beyond her monkey sphere, no interest in anything other than the immediate needs of survival, because up until now there was no time for any of that.

We've given her an unlimited source of everything she might want and she has no idea what to do with it besides getting her metaphorical food. She needs to foster an interest in... Anything really. It can't be that hard, normal, non magical people have all their necessities more or less covered and still manage to go looking for more, she just needs to go back to that mindset.
It's difficult now that it's been confirmed Akiko's basically poisoning the well; an interest in common is good and perhaps even necessary for a healthy group to thrive, true, but right now not only the group is out of that purpose that brought them and held them together for so long, it's also got quite an influential member (who was a huge deal in keeping them together!) pretty much literally attacking the cohesion of the group.

And she not only kept them together, she pulled them together after an event that is quite wholly reflected in the curent situation.

We definitely should check up on this soon, perhaps we can talk with Yuki about how her talk with Rin goes?

(I would refrain from using the term 'cave woman'? This is really something that applies to all human beings at some point in their lives.)
 
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There is a reason I said that Sabrina is not officially the leader, mostly because she would deny being the leader, but regardless of Sabrina's self delusions other groups will notice that Sabrina is unofficially leading the group and react accordingly.

Honestly Sabrina seems to be the best fit for a leader anyway. Mami is too insecure and dependent, Homura is awful in the social department, Sayaka would be too quick to judge megucas outside of the group, Oriko and Kirika aren't able to lead the group, because Homura and Sayaka wouldn't follow them, etc.
I think there's two or a few reasons why we are not the leader, despite how often we drive the group to pursue our own interests...

Well, first would be that, even though we do lead our group sometimes, that does not make us a leader, not of a healthy group at the very least; it pertains a healthy group to allow any of its members to assume temporary leadership position whenever the subject they are dealing with is best dealt with by said member. And when we try to help magical girls, try to take care of or forgive our opponents, go out and break fights, we never force everyone else to follow our lead; we ask, and many times our interests are simply aligned with that of the rest; when they are not, we tend to not push the issue.

Say, we pushed Homura to spare Oriko because Oriko's and Kirika's lives were on the line, but at the same time we ofte don't push her when her insecurities come into play, even if we might end up acting somewhat less than optimal because of it.


Beyond that, I'd say, and I think somebody already brough it up, we would suck as a leader. Social is not our thing. Mami, however, is pretty good at it (she can and often puts on a strong face when needed, despite her insecurities), and really, she's such a paragon of niceness and justice we know she won't lead this group astray, so... why wouldn't Mami be the leader?

Why we shouldn't be the leader is, at least partly, because of our (Sabrina's, not saying literally every single person in the thread has) control issues. We have shown more than once our emotions, and almost our actions, go out of control when confronted. That time Hitomi tried to slap us being a prime example.
 
There is a reason I said that Sabrina is not officially the leader, mostly because she would deny being the leader, but regardless of Sabrina's self delusions other groups will notice that Sabrina is unofficially leading the group and react accordingly.

Honestly Sabrina seems to be the best fit for a leader anyway. Mami is too insecure and dependent, Homura is awful in the social department, Sayaka would be too quick to judge megucas outside of the group, Oriko and Kirika aren't able to lead the group, because Homura and Sayaka wouldn't follow them, etc.

I think it would be most accurate to say that Sabrina is the one with the Vision. She has an idea of how she wants things to be, on a personal, local, and worldwide level. She's plotting grand strategy to make things happen.

Maybe someone else might be the leader for a particular battle or in an administrative sense or even in a social sense, but Sabrina is the setting the overall course of the group. If they were the Mitakihara Magical Girl Corporation, Sabrina would be the CEO even if someone else is President.
 
Honestly I'll admit that any sympathy I could have had for Sakura has rapidly dried up and I'd much rather tell her to get bent than try and mend bridges with her... but eh.

If wanted to stick to a life style that could easily have gotten her and her friend Rin killed than that's not our problem.
 
Well, first would be that, even though we do lead our group sometimes, that does not make us a leader, not of a healthy group at the very least; it pertains a healthy group to allow any of its members to assume temporary leadership position whenever the subject they are dealing with is best dealt with by said member. And when we try to help magical girls, try to take care of or forgive our opponents, go out and break fights, we never force everyone else to follow our lead; we ask, and many times our interests are simply aligned with that of the rest; when they are not, we tend to not push the issue.

Say, we pushed Homura to spare Oriko because Oriko's and Kirika's lives were on the line, but at the same time we ofte don't push her when her insecurities come into play, even if we might end up acting somewhat less than optimal because of it.
And that is way I think Sabrina is a good leader. She can let someone else temporary take charge if they are better at dealing with it. She never really forces someone into following her instead she convinces them to follow her vision, as someone put it, and is empathic enough not to push when it would hurt the ones she leads.

She is the person that Mami, Homura, Sayaka, etc. look for guidance.
Beyond that, I'd say, and I think somebody already brough it up, we would suck as a leader. Social is not our thing. Mami, however, is pretty good at it (she can and often puts on a strong face when needed, despite her insecurities), and really, she's such a paragon of niceness and justice we know she won't lead this group astray, so... why wouldn't Mami be the leader?

Why we shouldn't be the leader is, at least partly, because of our (Sabrina's, not saying literally every single person in the thread has) control issues. We have shown more than once our emotions, and almost our actions, go out of control when confronted. That time Hitomi tried to slap us being a prime example.
Despite what everyone says Sabrina, while not the best social person, has managed a lot in the social department. We have convinced Homura to spare Orika and Kirika, despite the difficulties we convinced Oriko not to give up on living, we managed to get Mami's psychological situation to be stable, even if not ideal, after revealing Kyuubey lied to her something Homura found inconceivable. People always seem to concentrate on the fuck ups of Sabrina, but she also had her successes.

And Mami, despite having the skills to lead, would simply be too insecure to voice any opinion Sabrina might disapprove of, would breakdown the second she finds out about the witchbomb, which is something a leader should know, and I'm not sure if Mami could make any decision where Sabrina could get hurt.
 
Oh, and by the by - I will probably not be updating on (my) coming Wednesday. I have a thesis proposal review that's going to consume most of my time.

I'll try my best, but that will take up a lot of time and effort.


AAAAAAAAAAA

GENKI!FIRN? TOO MUCH CATGIRL BAIT!

*rapid tacklehugs firn*

*cuddles*

It doesn't matter when you update, nya~! Do what you have to do! We'll be here when you're done!
 
And that is way I think Sabrina is a good leader. She can let someone else temporary take charge if they are better at dealing with it. She never really forces someone into following her instead she convinces them to follow her vision, as someone put it, and is empathic enough not to push when it would hurt the ones she leads.

She is the person that Mami, Homura, Sayaka, etc. look for guidance.

Despite what everyone says Sabrina, while not the best social person, has managed a lot in the social department. We have convinced Homura to spare Orika and Kirika, despite the difficulties we convinced Oriko not to give up on living, we managed to get Mami's psychological situation to be stable, even if not ideal, after revealing Kyuubey lied to her something Homura found inconceivable. People always seem to concentrate on the fuck ups of Sabrina, but she also had her successes.

And Mami, despite having the skills to lead, would simply be too insecure to voice any opinion Sabrina might disapprove of, would breakdown the second she finds out about the witchbomb, which is something a leader should know, and I'm not sure if Mami could make any decision where Sabrina could get hurt.
You do have points.

I believe maybe (not sure) the main reason we're not leading is because leading is an important part of Mami's personality, being the Ur-(abandoned-)Senpai. She wants to teach, to take others under her wing, and it does her good.

She is also the one everyone knows. Everybody knows Mami owns Mitakihara, and that does help her position as team leader, as people already defer to her.

And I think she's past the point of being unable to voice opinions Sabrina might not approve of. Mami's had (a lot of) anxiety about going against anything Sabrina did, at some point found the courage to let us know to our face when she would rather not argue with us, and I think she's become able to question our decisions once more by now.

It's fine to doubt Mami's decision making where Sabrina's safety is concerned, I think, but thankfully we have cheat codes. We are OP and part of that is our OP defensive capabilities.

I think watching the video of our spar with Yuki might even help. It really shows how OP Sabrina is to a point, going by how despite tanking everything and the some, Sabrina was not hurt at all during the whole thing.
 
Similarly complimentary, of course. I'm not entirely a heartless mercenary,"

But she is still /in part/ a heartless mercenary, by admission, and theres very few opportunities more valuable to invest in if she wants to buy Sabrina's goodwill, than volunteering to help in a situation like this

"Good news first!" Kirika chirps.

"Hello, Sabrina," Oriko says. "Does the good news mean that you have closed the deal and are arriving to collect Airi?"

Hehehe, the precog is still trying to act like a precog. Any new ideas how to help get her powers back without badtimes?

Oh, thank Madokami. No fuss, no rush, not even very much Madoka being disappointed.

... or maybe thank Madoka.

Eh, theology can wait.

Do you think Madokami got a giggle out of this? Or Madoka (Sayaka?) got a weird urge to sneeze or something?
Maaaan, imagine if Sayaka had proposed an idea that got Madoka to happily be excluded from the meeting. Sabrina would go nuts xD (why is halloween so far away, how did the Queen of Witches not attack then?! we could buy sayaka a weird angel/mermaid hybrid costume, and Homura a devil/librarian combo! (To reflect her original mousey personality?)

I have heard nothing about you, and if you are as much of a veteran as you look, then I will admit: I am wary of you."

Someone asked already, but how does a veteran look? Yuki's an awful clever girl picking out how scary it is that Homura screams badass to her instincts and yet left no trail for rumors to sniff

the seeds of conflict have already been sown, if you'll pardon the pun."

THERE SHALL BE NO PARDON!
....
the sentence is Befriending.

[] Yuki's Nexus
- [] Homura's suggestion
- [] Warehouse-kun

Do you...do you think precious Warehouse-kun is ready to so closely bond to someone like that? We just visit to hang out and play after all, he's really more little brother... but this moe girl wants something deeper!

Maybe we could buy out Madokas house as a construction site, for our future Mamigold hotel, in order to convince her to move to a more easily defended location.

Ooohh..... she does have an absurd amount of clear land around her house right, a very scenic spot? But likely an expensive house... how could we make this work? Look into the real estate market of Mitakihara and figure out reasons they'd need to snatch the spot? Pose it as a way to slyly buy Sayaka a dream-home AND get all your friends to live together in a cool shared home, so she needed the excuse for relocating Madoka too?

We should at least mention this idea off-hand to Homura and see how she reacts @_@

would prefer playing superhero against muggle baddies.

Maybe we can suggest they take over the Yakuza?! A clear feel-good purpose for those who need it, potential for lots of material gain to provide security for others, the raiding and conquest and violence some of them probably got used to.... and potential to find those troubled girls prone to contract (we do need to look into the Megu-Yaku that Firn's already mentioned to us).

does her power recognize something unusual like, say, a megazord as a structure or 'place' she can claim and control?

So...so wait. This is an adorable moe, fangirling over Mami, who is scarily competent at times, who could be an ideal third addition to our combo-attack MEGA GRIEFY ZILLA LAGEN ?

We have like, a biiiig heart (as much as you'd expect from 50+ people really!) and the best way to help Mami's forever-alone fears is to find moar people to ensure theres always someone who's spending time with her, right? Look how happy Kazumi is with her friend-rem!

<3 Sharing is caring and caring is love <3
 
I believe maybe (not sure) the main reason we're not leading is because leading is an important part of Mami's personality, being the Ur-(abandoned-)Senpai. She wants to teach, to take others under her wing, and it does her good.
I think a major part of Mami's interest in teaching and being a senpai was a need to be needed, because as long as she was needed they wouldn't abandon her. It might still help her since it is a piece of normalcy, but I think teaching is not as important to her now that she has Sabrina and her other friends.

Her teaching and Sabrina leading aren't mutual exclusive anyway.
She is also the one everyone knows. Everybody knows Mami owns Mitakihara, and that does help her position as team leader, as people already defer to her.
I would question if Mami is still more known than the girl with the power to cleanse gems.
Isn't Sabrina even known in Russia by now?

And I think she's past the point of being unable to voice opinions Sabrina might not approve of. Mami's had (a lot of) anxiety about going against anything Sabrina did, at some point found the courage to let us know to our face when she would rather not argue with us, and I think she's become able to question our decisions once more by now.

It's fine to doubt Mami's decision making where Sabrina's safety is concerned, I think, but thankfully we have cheat codes. We are OP and part of that is our OP defensive capabilities.
I think Mami's decisions would still be clouded by her feelings for Sabrina, even knowing how powerful Sabrina is she would likely still not be able to place her in any situation where she could get seriously hurt.

But Mami's qualifications for leading aside, she seems to have really no interest in leading at the moment.
I think watching the video of our spar with Yuki might even help. It really shows how OP Sabrina is to a point, going by how despite tanking everything and the some, Sabrina was not hurt at all during the whole thing.
It can't hurt.
 
Should we direct Rin to read up on the psychology of retirement? The sense of purposelessness they're feeling seems similar to what some people go through when they retire from their careers.
 
I would question if Mami is still more known than the girl with the power to cleanse gems.
Isn't Sabrina even known in Russia by now?

When I said, "Mami is probably some kinda urban legend in Meguca world", I wasn't exactly joking, though it sounded like I did.
I totally expect to hear at least once in this quest from another Meguca something like:
"Да ты кем себя возомнила, Мами Томоэ, что ли?"
At least once.
 
Caring about about yourself is not in opposition with caring about others. The human hearth is not so small and affection/respect is not in limited quantity.
No, the problem would be caring about yourself while excluding others. And Sakura doesn't do that. What she does is dehumanizing others that are not part of her 'tribe'.
Absolutely. Sakura very much so has an 'Us vs Them' mentality, and more than that I think, is that she's resentful and we present an easy and -to be honest- rather justified target since we were the ones who table-flipped her whole world. That said, her extreme self-focus isn't healthy. Being worried about your own interests is one thing, but Sakura's going a bit too far. The willingness to help one another -even without immediate benefit- is one of the cornerstones upon which civilization has been built.

Someone asked already, but how does a veteran look? Yuki's an awful clever girl picking out how scary it is that Homura screams badass to her instincts and yet left no trail for rumors to sniff
Sa... It's a hard thing to describe really. My town is military and I've met a lot of soldiers coming back from deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq so I'm at least familiar with what it is that's being described here.

One of the best ways to notice it -with those who have served longer and in direct combat- I would describe as a sort of hyper-awareness. A number of them are always glancing around and ensuring their surroundings have nothing suspicious unless they're absolutely comfortable with their location. It's subtle, but it's something you can spot (I only do so because a head doctor friend of mine gave a run down on some of the traits and by asking vet friends) but it's not the only thing you can spot.

Next, is that the vets who had a lot of combat experience -in my encounters- also tend to have an ability to make very quick and decisive decisions. Combat has been described as a conflict between the 'quick' and the 'dead' before for good reason.

The third method is the general atmosphere around them. It tends to mostly come from how they carry themselves as well as how the vets handled the mental and physical stress combat puts on them. Some of them carry an aura that says 'fuck with me and mine and you'll be dead before you know it' others just have what I can only describe as 'bone-deep weariness'. They give tired sighs when they sit down somewhere to relax and they look like they've got the whole damn world on their shoulders. It's a sad thing to see, but also sort of inspiring because even after everything that's happened to them, they're still here and still moving on despite it.

The last thing is their eyes. Whoever coined the term 'the eyes are the window to the soul' was probably even more right than they thought. The thousand-yard state isn't a joke and there's a... a hardness I guess? to their gazes that says nothing less than 'I am still here' and even more besides.


I'll reitterate that these observations are based on my own experiences and interactions and they are most certainly NOT a definitive guide to identifying veteran soldiers and fighters, merely what I've picked up here and there. If we have someone here with a real education in the matter and experience as a head doctor, I'll gladly defer to their knowledge and judgement on this matter.
 
So they've stopped hunting witches and they feel adrift and purposeless?

I think we should talk to them about this. Offering a cash bounty is the wrong approach. The right approach is to remind them that killing witches saves lives -- it's the Right Thing To Do. Make up for past wrongs, With Great Power, et cetera.

-- and, equally importantly: if they don't keep the witch population down, eventually they won't have a city any more. I think that's good motivation.
 
Ooohh..... she does have an absurd amount of clear land around her house right, a very scenic spot? But likely an expensive house... how could we make this work? Look into the real estate market of Mitakihara and figure out reasons they'd need to snatch the spot? Pose it as a way to slyly buy Sayaka a dream-home AND get all your friends to live together in a cool shared home, so she needed the excuse for relocating Madoka too?

We should at least mention this idea off-hand to Homura and see how she reacts @_@
Well the first thing we would need to do if to find a way to put their whole garden into storage; maybe we could rent out a warehouse, fill it with some artifical natural lighting, and just transplant the whole garden, earth it is rooted in and all? Maybe we could take their home with it and turn the warehouse into a bunker while we were at it, just to do Homura a favor while we were at it. After that, maybe we could move the garden into the top of the hotel, and put a greenhouse over the whole thing? I'm sort of picturing a small arcology here. Maybe we could get some of the less powerful MGs to work on constructing and maintaining in return for payment? As well and any enchanted items, and use of those items, that they could do?
 
So they've stopped hunting witches and they feel adrift and purposeless?

I think we should talk to them about this. Offering a cash bounty is the wrong approach. The right approach is to remind them that killing witches saves lives -- it's the Right Thing To Do. Make up for past wrongs, With Great Power, et cetera.

-- and, equally importantly: if they don't keep the witch population down, eventually they won't have a city any more. I think that's good motivation.
I think the best thing we could have done in this situation we've already done by pure accident: Tsuruya Yuki will probably be able to help them better than we can. The only other thing I think we potentially could do that she can't is de-witch Kato Setsuko.

Though really, given how much uncertainty and research there is in that vein, I'm of the opinion that dewitching is better left unpromised until the moment we've not only found Kato's Seed, but have at least made stable contact with a clear seed or witch. Or better, when the whole shebang is nearly complete.
 
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