I never had any interest in doing that, and I've already made that quite clear. Kindly refrain from ascribing nefarious motives to me. You're better than that.

Again I ask you: if not the Clear Seed then how do you intend to pay these mercenaries?

That's obviously something we'll need to discuss with them, but between our large amounts of material wealth and the staggering degree and variety of favors (either from ourselves or from other groups we're on good terms with) we can call in as potential payment, it seems unlikely to me that we can't come to some sort of arrangement.

The fact of the matter is that we're going to collapse the Grief Seed trading economy with our actions, and discussing the implications of that on the Fukushima girl's current business model and coming to an agreement is something we'd need to do eventually anyway.
 
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I feel like, even putting aside hypothetically trying to swear Fukushima into our service (indentured or otherwise), the practical issue with trying to use the Clear Seeds as any kind of capital, social or pseudo-monetary or otherwise, is simply that it's hard to believe in them. They're new- we're new. Even if 'the numbers' say that they have a lifetime's worth of use- they've only been in use for what, two weeks or so? They're not stress-tested for even a measurable fraction of the time we're trying to value them at- did we even ever officially leave the phase where we're "watching for potential problems"? We don't have the credibility built up, I think, for people to take our word about the value of the Clear Seeds. And I don't mean the "getting things done" or "trustworthiness" kind of credibility, we've been getting around and getting a lot done to build that. I mean the, hm, marketing or design credibility? We're not the Apple or Microsoft of the meguca world- we're the teeny little startup that will become Apple or Microsoft. Not everyone is going to believe in or want to take that investment risk.

Also, outside of the lack-of-quantified-testing and lack of built up credibility as a purveyor of SCIENCE!, there's a more gut-feeling issue. In general, because of how currency (fiat or otherwise) is set up, a larger mass of currency tends to be more valuable- more gold or more money or more food, by mass or volume. And I feel like that builds a sort of intuition about value that follows likewise. Obviously, that's not always the case- technology tends to do the opposite, becoming more valuable as the same feature are implemented in a more lightweight form. But for things like technology, that sense of more is conveyed with more features, more data, more versatility- things that there are numbers to back up. And even with all that, I feel like some of the consternation that older people (like my 60's-70s year old parents age) feel about new technology comes down to that dissonant sense of value. The whole "that small thing costs how much?" thing as well as the "it has how many features" thing coming into conflict.

What I'm trying to say is, the Clear Seeds literally look like paletteswapped grief seeds, which doesn't seem like enough for a person to automatically make an entirely new intuition for them, and for girls who are used to valuing their time using grief seeds as a set value resource, the idea of a Clear Seed will be going against every built up intuition about value that they have. Unless they have a compelling reason to go against that intuition, and by compelling reason I mean tested and proved reliability of the product, Clear Seeds are just... not going to seem as valuable as they are. This isn't much helped by Sabrina offering them for free. They're not going to seem trustworthy or reliable until we get over that hurdle, for many of the same reasons that there's a sense in the real world that older and bulkier technology is more reliable, whether or not that's actually true.

(Edit: **misses several posts of discussion** this is what happens when a post takes too long to write, isn't it? Ah, my first foray into SV...)
 
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Unless they have a compelling reason to go against that intuition, and by compelling reason I mean tested and proved reliability of the product, Clear Seeds are just... not going to seem as valuable as they are.
That's why we typically make the Seed in front of people, so they can see how much Grief is getting pulled out of it. That mass of Grief looks as huge as they would intuitively expect.
 
That's why we typically make the Seed in front of people, so they can see how much Grief is getting pulled out of it. That mass of Grief looks as huge as they would intuitively expect.

I mean, true. But then that runs into the other issue of intuition, I feel like- that's a lot of grief. Even with a direct comparison to how much grief a soul gem runs up in a day with moderate magic use, that's, well, a lifetime's worth of grief. We run into the "a million is a statistic" problem; yes it's a lot of grief and it makes it clear that Clear Seeds are a heck of a grief sink, but it's so much of one that there's too much to process. Humans aren't great at valuing what "a lifetime's worth" of anything looks like; a few months or a few years, sure, and maybe when we've shown that a few years of use doesn't appreciably increment the amount of grief in a Clear Seed it can start sinking in that it's a literal lifetime's worth of a resource. Until then, it's still not quite believable.

(That said, yeah, okay, even with that intuition barrier, that's still a sizable value. Wouldn't want to negotiate with shaky valuation like this, but then, we're not really planning to so, as far as I gather? Social credibility and capital only, if we're just sort of quietly (loudly) collapsing the economy by handing out Clear Seeds.)

Edit: Also, we still run into the "we're not Microsoft yet" problem of the seeming reliability of Clear Seeds, and whether they'll actually keep working as expected for a lifetime.
 
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Correct. Which doesn't change the fact that we'd offer it for free regardless, which makes it invalid as a bargaining chip. Unless you want to put girls swearing themselves into indentured servitude back on the table - and believe me, that's an argument I'm prepared to take to shitstorm levels.
I never had any interest in doing that, and I've already made that quite clear. Kindly refrain from ascribing nefarious motives to me. You're better than that.

Again I ask you: if not the Clear Seed then how do you intend to pay these mercenaries?

Wait, wait. I've got a solution, tried and true.

[Q] Seize the means of Grief Seed production.
-[Q] Distribute them equally across the masses of Megucas.
--[Q] Collapse the whole damned Kyubetalist economycal system.

Maybe that's what "Adfligo Systema" stands for, huh?

( Btw, Onmur, I call dibs on "Sabrina standing on a Grief Armored Van" omake. Just so you know. )
 
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The fact of the matter is that we're going to collapse the Grief Seed trading economy with our actions, and discussing the implications of that on the Fukushima girl's current business model and coming to an agreement is something we'd need to do eventually anyway.
I think that that might even be our opening when it's time to discuss payment? They give us a quote, we say that that's a tricky topic because our powers let us undercut the value of the Grief Seed so deeply that we expect the market for them to collapse like a souffle hit with a sledgehammer. And that we feel bad about causing them trouble, so we should discuss the topic in more depth in person.

edit: We're going to have to tell them that Anri is a witchbomb threat so they can keep an eye out. At the same time, we should probably tell them that the payment situation is going to be even worse than originally stated, given that one of our long-term intents is to send witch spawning to zero.
 
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[Q] Seize the means of Grief Seed production.
-[Q] Distribute them equally across the masses of Megucas.
--[Q] Collapse the whole damned Kyubetalist economycal system.

Alternatively,

[Q] Introduce them to Magia Record any gacha game, really.
-[Q] Wait one day.
--[Q] Offer to buy them gacha for one year.
---[Q] Belatedly realize that you don't have enough money for that.

 
Question: Do we know if Fukushima treats grief seed capital primarily as magical capital, or as trading capital? Or just an even mix of both? Like, do they stock seeds primarily because more seeds = more ability to leverage magical power and more, well, stability and security on a personal level? Or do they stock seeds primarily for the trading value? The difference is really, does Fukushima handle most of their needs 'in house' and thus consume the power to achieve their ends personally, or does Fukushima outsource frequently enough that it's the "trading capital" part of grief seed stockpiling that's important? (Note: I say "primarily", as in, does either motivation hold more sway; it's likely enough that it's just an even mix of both motivations.)

The former would mean that our planned devaluation of grief seeds would have less effect on Fukushima's operations, and also generally put us in a better bargaining position, I think; the latter means yeah, we're going to tank their economic status and that's gonna be a problem.

Not really relevant to planning at this stage I suppose, but just a way to look at the state of affairs I feel might be useful to keep in mind?

Edit: For that matter, though- are there prevailing trends about how the grief seed economy is treated as a whole, among the more prominent groups of meguca? Subsistence-bartering focused, or service-trade-currency focused? Or is it really just down to what a particular group chooses to value most highly as a product of their own experiences/neuroses/situational assessment?
 
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We're lucky so far that most of the groups we deal with haven't caught on to the economic value of the clear seed, but it's almost guaranteed to happen eventually.

Imagine if some group decides to start renting cleanses from their clear seed out as a service. Someone like Sendai who has a teleporter, but any travel power, or just a travelling group. They could collect a great deal of money and favors, ranging from "thanks for the assist" to literal entire teams in life debts - just look at the situation the Pleadies were in. And frankly, we have no grounds to object, because they're not doing anything wrong, in fact, they're helping other magical girls a great deal. They're being paid/rewarded for their efforts, sure, but there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, if that's how they want to help make one clear seed cover more ground, I'd encourage them.

But that still means our clear seed is being monetized, up until the years from now that we make enough for everyone in the world. That's just something we're going to have to make our peace with. Clear seeds can be monetized. Power assistance enabled by clear seeds can be monetized (not merely merc work). It's not worth taking a stand on, because it's a good thing in many cases. The cases where it's not are ones we'd have to actually use our judgment on.
 
I suppose it's like monetizing any potentially lifesaving resource- water, food, medical attention. Runs into the same problems, too, I guess- I believe it's fair to be paid for the work and effort that goes into distributing these things and making them available, but on the other hand, if you're standing next to a person who's dehydrated or starving or bleeding out, and you have the resources to freely save them without detriment to yourself, it feels like kind of a dick move to hold that over their head until they agree to owe you. I mean, obviously a lot of people would swear aforementioned life-debts and promise aforementioned favors freely, and groups going around to essentially help everyone they can to make networks of social obligation isn't really anything we can object to. It's prolly just, if we get wind of people going around with the Clear Seeds and letting people die or come to harm because they can't pay, that's something we'll need to address. ('Course, then there's the issue of the divide between 'can't pay' and 'won't pay' in a life-threatening situation. Which runs into both the problem of people deliberately getting into life-threatening levels of grief so they can guilt people renting Clear Seeds into helping them without paying for it, and things akin to, as in real life, people refusing high-success-rate life-saving treatment because it would place too high a burden on their family.)
 
I haven't read through all the in-between posts, but have we already talked about the most probable source of the Mystery black feathers tying into the only time black feathers featured in Madoka Magica, with Homucifer/Akuma Homura? I don't know HOW she would be involved in this fic, but it's a strong connection.
 
I haven't read through all the in-between posts, but have we already talked about the most probable source of the Mystery black feathers tying into the only time black feathers featured in Madoka Magica, with Homucifer/Akuma Homura? I don't know HOW she would be involved in this fic, but it's a strong connection.

...
My good friend ( I see you basically the first time, but whatever )
"Talking" is a little too weak a word to describe what we've done with the idea.

We are writing fanfics about it. Yeah, fanfiction on fanfiction.
Try typing "Homucifer" into the search engine on this thread and see how many entries it will net.
 
I haven't read through all the in-between posts, but have we already talked about the most probable source of the Mystery black feathers tying into the only time black feathers featured in Madoka Magica, with Homucifer/Akuma Homura? I don't know HOW she would be involved in this fic, but it's a strong connection.

One of the current leading hypotheses is that the feathers belong to our own Witch, somehow.
 
I haven't read through all the in-between posts, but have we already talked about the most probable source of the Mystery black feathers tying into the only time black feathers featured in Madoka Magica, with Homucifer/Akuma Homura? I don't know HOW she would be involved in this fic, but it's a strong connection.
There was a discussion a few months ago about it. Look at the link in my sig (Firn is a precog hoebag piece of shit)
 
Adfligo Systema is the name of the laser beam we bisect Walpurgisnacht with.

According to Google Translator, "System Break" in Italian would be something like "Rottura del Sistema". Any Italian-speaking person is free to correct this, if it happens to be an unholy linguistic abomination that defies all grammatical rules and several laws of physics.

Hmm...
Using Latin is hella symbolic. Any more symbolism and we'd have to shout our attack names in Witch Runes, "Twin Star Exorcists" style.

Using Italian, however. Coughmamicough.

Yes, I know it's not a topic serious enough to warrant discussion. Except that it totally is. Thoughts?
 
But that still means our clear seed is being monetized, up until the years from now that we make enough for everyone in the world. That's just something we're going to have to make our peace with. Clear seeds can be monetized. Power assistance enabled by clear seeds can be monetized (not merely merc work). It's not worth taking a stand on, because it's a good thing in many cases. The cases where it's not are ones we'd have to actually use our judgment on.

This is one of those things where I think overall creating some sort of norm would be useful. Hopefully with the grief seed resource issue dealt with those with clear seeds will see they can *AFFORD* to be nice again/for once.

20XX Accord on the Ethical Use of Clear Seeds
 
In fact, if that's how they want to help make one clear seed cover more ground, I'd encourage them.
That's fair, yes. Ideally we'd have travelers (Nadia et al) handing out free cleansing on principal the way we do, but again referring back to Nadia's situation that's a far less workable strategy when you're only carrying a Clear Seed instead of having the full grief-control powerset. It's even arguable that we do it ourselves; we don't formally trade favors, but we certainly do lean (sometimes pretty hard) on the goodwill we gather with our gifts.
 
Well, actually, the winning vote didn't have the image. The image was in the runner up vote... it doesn't show up in the tally, but you can click the link to justinkal's vote to see it.

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 1850

Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Feb 13, 2018 at 7:11 PM, finished with 343 posts and 31 votes.

  • [x] Let there be light.
    -[x] Test open a second entrance/exit inside the barrier. Set that entrance for 'the rooftops of Mami's apartment complex'. See if it works.
    -[x] If the pocket witch barrier suppression doesn't work, try suppressing it with magic. Maybe wrap a shell around the barrier?
    [x] justinkal for the rest.
    [x] "Es Werde Licht"
    [x] Exit the barrier without dispelling it.
    -[x] Make sure that the grief that was under our control before entering the barrier didn't leave our control.
    --[x] If any grief left our control, reclaim control of it.
    -[x] Try and create a second entrance to our barrier that is very close to the first entrance on the inside of the barrier but is almost 100 meters away on the outside of the barrier.
    --[x] Throw a rock through the pair of entrances to see if we can use them as a form of Nightcrawler style teleportation.
    --[x] Test if we can extend our grief manipulation range past 100 meters by using the entrances as a wormhole to reduce the distance between two points outside of the barrier.
    -[x] Create 2 stopwatches out of grief. Start them at the same time and then place one in your pocket and the other inside the barrier alongside an ordinary rock.
    --[x] Close the entrance of the barrier from outside and try and make it so that it doesn't show up like a witch in regular magic senses, preferably without completely dispelling the barrier.
    ---[x] Reopen the entrance and check if the stopwatch and rock are still inside.
    ---[x] See if you can make the barrier follow you around and the entrance small enough to store on your person.
    ----[x] Shortly before leaving for lunch, attempt to modify the barrier so that time passes half as quickly inside the barrier as it does outside the barrier. After lunch, pull the stopwatch back out of the barrier and compare its time to the stopwatch in your pocket.
    [X] Sun, Moon and Stars
    [x] Let there be light.
    [x] Let there be light.
    [X] Tinker with decorations
    [x] Fiat lux.
    [x] Let there be light.
    [x]Cackle. A lot.
    [x]Ping Mami, just in case.
    [x]Study your barrier. See if the void has limits.
    [x]Try making a floor out of magic, then use grief marbles if that doesn't work.
    [x]Try summoning objects out of the void. See what happens to grief marbles...and if you can dissipate one or two in the void.
    [x] Fiat lux.
    [x] Try various grief manipulations in order to determine if grief manipulation inside the barrier is different from manipulating it outside the barrier or inside the barrier of another witch.
    [x] Test if our barrier can be enlarged beyond a sphere of 100m radius.
    [x] Justinkal's got it goin on.
 
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