Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
>For all we know, her home town was overrun by witches
>there's no need to invent a tragic-but-plausible history
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
>For all we know, her home town was overrun by witches
>there's no need to invent a tragic-but-plausible history
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
They're arguing that Hitmoi's mother will take offense to not immediately revealing all, as the brief period we've known her indicates that she likes to get to the point.
I'm arguing that she's not going to begrudge 10 seconds of clarifying for the sake of a vast masquerade she should know about, because that's not what real people or well-written fictional characters do.
- Location
- Texas
These were funny witches. They lured people into their barriers and involved them in wacky sitcom hijinks.
Not tragic-but-plausible at all.
Edit: That is, in fact, how Hitomi's mother and father met. A witch sucked them into a barrier and wouldn't let them out until they went on fifty dates with each other.
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Difference is, Phigment's just using that as a throwaway example, whereas Vebyast is asserting their idea is the one that must have happened.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Kyubey. Kyubey kyubey kyubey kyubey kyubey.
The cat's already out of the bag, and her mother didn't ask her. Her mother asked us. If her mother thought that this was an agency issue she'd have brought Hitomi in here too. Her goal right now appears to be to keep Hitomi safe and stable. She's probably only mostly sure that Hitomi knows that we're magical girls and is trying to keep things quiet, otherwise she'd have asked Sayaka.
If we do ask Hitomom for her assistance, we'll certainly want to bring up that our biggest reservation was that we didn't want to disrupt Hitomi's ability to take refuge at a perfectly normal home.
She recognized the ring the instant she saw Sayaka and was desperately hoping that it was a coincidence. She hasn't had any contact with magical girls for years, otherwise Mami would have heard of her. She's also using the words "magical girl". So we're necessarily positing:
- A culture that calls itself "magical girls"
- That has the resources to commission extremely distinctive custom, individualized jewelry for every member
- That has lasted for decades
- That was present at Hitomom's high school
- That is kept secret enough that teenagers would think that no adults and most teenagers would not have heard of it despite its financial power, longevity, and geographical reach
I think that pulling in Sayaka would've actually caused significant trouble: "Why didn't you tell me?". Like I said, she's trying to keep this low-key.
Because we have a vastly better option, and because questioning her right now is not effective or respectful. "I know you're magical girls." "Are you sure?" Like, what are you intending to accomplish there? There's not much room there between stupid and condescending.
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kinigget
Best Demon
- Location
- People's Republic of Portland
Which is why I went with a proposal that sorta does both
Tacitly confirms her suspicions, but prompts her to go into more detail
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
No, but there's some people below me that are going to spend quite a few paragraphs trying.
This thread argues over the silliest things sometimes. I guess it's a sign that I've culturally blended that I'm arguing over silly things too now.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Would Kyuubey allow that though?
Sole Purpose
Clueless
- Location
- Spread Across Several Miles
It's not "are you sure?" it's "what do you mean by magical girl?" which is an entirely reasonable thing to ask and is unlikely to cause her to flip out.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There's quite a lot of negative social results that fall short of the other person flipping out.
- Location
- Texas
Would Kyuubey care? And do we think it's actually reading the minds of pretty much every human, everywhere, in case they happen to stumble upon the existence of magic?
Seriously, humans conceptually know about magic. They conceptually know about wishes. They conceptually know about witches and demons. The Wizard of Oz is a book about a girl who is transported to a magical fantasy world where everything is symbolic and stuff, and she fights witches. Kyuubey allowed it to be published.
Kyuubey cares about people learning and spreading the details of magical girl life, not about abstract knowledge. If she figured out on her own that magical girls are probably a thing, and didn't go around telling people, Kyuubey doesn't have any need to do anything.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Look, we're phrasing it as an IF->THEN thing:
[] Ask if she's lost someone.
-[] If so, offer condolences.
Benefits? To start with, we show we're not a dumb, ignorant guca; we show we know what's at stake and how important it is.
If Haruka has lost friends to megucaing, we show respect for her loss.
If she hasn't, we still have shown we understand what's at stake, better than her in this case.
[] Ask if she's lost someone.
-[] If so, offer condolences.
Benefits? To start with, we show we're not a dumb, ignorant guca; we show we know what's at stake and how important it is.
If Haruka has lost friends to megucaing, we show respect for her loss.
If she hasn't, we still have shown we understand what's at stake, better than her in this case.
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
No, I think that if magical girls are discussing their business in the library he's also in the library making eavesdroppers forget what they heard.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
We specifically asked Kyuubey not to mindwipe our friends parents. If Haruka tells Miho, then Miho will remember. Kyuubey isn't going to suddenly step in just to make your theory correct.
who cares? Haruka isn't our friend, Hitomi is! Maybe your parents were different, but my parents would have been upset if I brought home such shitty friends. And I know for damn sure that any friends I kept or will keep, who tell deep secrets like that to my parents that easily, won't be my friends for long.
You seem to misunderstand. What Haruka does and does not consider an agency issue is completely irrelevant to Hitomi's sense of agency, because that is defined by Hitomi.
She's probably only mostly sure we're magical girls, which is why she's talking to us like this at all.
Did you miss the obvious concessions to the masquerade she gave? If we don't respond in kind, we'll look untrustworthy, which will be far worse than looking like a teenager trying to keep a friend's secret.
It's not implausible to think he might not know, if she didn't speak of her suspicions aloud.
My problem is that you guys seem to think that she's some kind of concerned teary parent and want to approach it from the angle that she's a PTSD victim in need of reassurance, and not that she's a rational actor addressing a concern. She'll be more relieved to know we take it seriously than she will be to know that we feel sorry that she knew a meguca.
kinigget
Best Demon
- Location
- People's Republic of Portland
That still comes acrods to me as making assumptions about where she's coming from and where she wants this conversation to go
Just getting confirmation that she's been around Magical Girls before should be enough to get her to elaborate
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Right then:
- You are assuming the identifying factor is the ring, not the holding of hands, which is fine for the LARPers theory but does not cover the "Lesbian euphemism theory". That's fine, but as such I am explicitly explaining why your points about the LARPers theory are incorrect, and not covering the broader topic for this except as it intersects with such.
- The rings need not be the identifying factor anyway, she might just have jumped to "that 'Magical Girl' LARPing group I heard Hitomi mention" as this is a group she's just been informed Hitomi doesn't know purely through school
- Mami is highly respected but not especially well-connected in the magical girls community that we know of, and Shizuki might well have interacted with girls Mami doesn't know.
- Why does this group have to make use of individualised custom pieces and not make use of jewlery purchased from jewelers? We know they're unique, but how does Shizuki know that?
- Why does Shizuki have to have known this group in her youth? Why couldn't she have heard of it when she was older?
- Why couldn't she have overheard it from Hitomi and assumed it was LARPing? Why does she have to have heard this as a cover from another magical girls group?
- Assuming she did overhear it as a cover in her youth, why did it have to be at her school? (Not very important, but you stated it as a defining fact in a chain of logic, so I assume it matters somehow?)
- Why would the assumption be that it's a super-secret group, as opposed to the girls she's confronting merely being surprised she's heard of it?
You have created this stance from whole cloth. You are arguing that there is absolutely no way Shizuki can be talking about anything but actual meguca, when there exist all sorts of alternate explanations. Several of these explanations are even reasonably likely. Literally all we have to do to discount them is quickly ask "To avoid potential misunderstandings, before I respond could you clarify what exactly you mean by 'magical girls'?", or some even-more-inoffensive phrasing of such, which no reasonable person could take offense to.
EDIT: Was a little unclear in places, cleaned up for readers.
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Haruka is Hitomi's mom and you're not, so unless Hitomi decides to chip in in support of you I know who I expect to have a better idea of Hitomi's boundaries.
- Location
- Texas
Kyuubey takes one vacation day in five years, and gets nothing but grief for it.
Not magical grief, either. That would look good on the progress reports. Just regular hassling from micromanaging busybodies.
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Look, if meguca life was happy-on-average than we wouldn't be playing this quest. All of this prevarication over whether or not Hitomom suffered any loss is, frankly, ridiculous.
I think there's a high chance that Hitomom knows we're meguca. Given that, there's a high chance that she knows we're meguca because she knew a meguca, or multiple meguca. Given that, there's a high chance that she has first-hand experience with meguca survival rates and meguca suffering.
"I'm sorry for your loss" might not be the right approach, or the right phrasing, but it acknowledges the probable reality of the situation.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Oh sure, it's the most probable explanation - it's a bit of a coincidence she'd use that term, unless she picked it up from Hitomi thinking it meant something else. The argument is about whether we add a single line asking for clarification at the start to cover literally every other possible explanation for no cost.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
Well, I gotta go to class. Don't let me down, Bunnies, Narrator.
Sole Purpose
Clueless
- Location
- Spread Across Several Miles
When did asking for clarification become some sort of faux-pas? Us asking what she means will not cause her to think any less of us.
- Location
- Illinois
Oh, my god, what the hell happened here with this?
So, people are suggesting that maybe Hitomom doesn't actually know about Meguca.
Firn's going to wake up in one or two hours and just go "what" before posting a WOG saying "yes she knows about meguca."
So let me counterargue first, I guess.
Firnagzen is not some distant, impersonal machine-QM. He is a flesh and blood person with human feelings, emotions, thoughts. With Human plans... And an understanding of humans.
In this chapter, Hitomom confronts us and tells us she "knows about magical girls."
In going on 5000 pages, 25 posts each, "magical gurls" has referred to meguca.
If Hitomom is talking about "LARPers" or somesuch, Firn has written for the first time in 5000 pages a chapter expressly intended to trick us into thinking something which is categorically wrong.
I'm frankly dissappointed in the attitude that has been expressed here. The last WOG we got when we fucking voted to do something and got told "don't do that it'll hurt you lots" should have been enough evidence for people to accept that Firn is not out for our blood goddammit.
And in response to the argument that asking for clarification costs us nothing? YES. IT. DOES.
It costs TIME. Time Firn could spend writing more PMAS.
It also costs IMPRESSION. Hitomom will view this as playing dumb. Nobody likes that. She won't either.
Insanity. Pure insanity.
So, people are suggesting that maybe Hitomom doesn't actually know about Meguca.
Firn's going to wake up in one or two hours and just go "what" before posting a WOG saying "yes she knows about meguca."
So let me counterargue first, I guess.
Firnagzen is not some distant, impersonal machine-QM. He is a flesh and blood person with human feelings, emotions, thoughts. With Human plans... And an understanding of humans.
In this chapter, Hitomom confronts us and tells us she "knows about magical girls."
In going on 5000 pages, 25 posts each, "magical gurls" has referred to meguca.
If Hitomom is talking about "LARPers" or somesuch, Firn has written for the first time in 5000 pages a chapter expressly intended to trick us into thinking something which is categorically wrong.
I'm frankly dissappointed in the attitude that has been expressed here. The last WOG we got when we fucking voted to do something and got told "don't do that it'll hurt you lots" should have been enough evidence for people to accept that Firn is not out for our blood goddammit.
And in response to the argument that asking for clarification costs us nothing? YES. IT. DOES.
It costs TIME. Time Firn could spend writing more PMAS.
It also costs IMPRESSION. Hitomom will view this as playing dumb. Nobody likes that. She won't either.
Insanity. Pure insanity.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
"What do you mean by magical girl?"
"I think you know exactly what I mean. Now answer the question."
Oh, here's another major failure mode. She knows that Sayaka only contracted a week or two ago, and this is the first time she's meeting Mami or Sabrina or anyone else; she has no reason to believe that we've been magical girls any longer than Sayaka has. Let's not convince her that we're naive noob meguca that doesn't understand what it means to be meguca, mmkay? I can't think of anything that'd damage our ability to work with her more than that; even odds that she thinks she understands being meguca well enough to try to assert herself as an authority figure and assume a leadership position.
...Fuck, she's probably depending on Kyubey to mindwipe us if she guessed wrong.
Huh, that's a good analogy. Replace "I know that you're a magical girl" with "You all have track marks and I saw the local dealer's number in Hitomi's phone. Did you know that he's cutting his shit with fentanyl? Start talking." Yeah, she's invading her child's privacy. She thinks that her daughter's friends are all going to die horribly and that her daughter might follow them! Invading her privacy to avert that is her entire fucking job as a parent! And we're not going to gain points by trying to "protect" Hitomi's "agency", she's going to condemn us for getting in her way when she's trying to save her daughter and she'd be right to do so.
Point stands, it'd have to cover basically the entirety of Japan.
Now quit being obtuse and making up what-ifs. Engage with the original point: The chance that she is not talking about meguca is effectively nil.
"I think you know exactly what I mean. Now answer the question."
Oh, here's another major failure mode. She knows that Sayaka only contracted a week or two ago, and this is the first time she's meeting Mami or Sabrina or anyone else; she has no reason to believe that we've been magical girls any longer than Sayaka has. Let's not convince her that we're naive noob meguca that doesn't understand what it means to be meguca, mmkay? I can't think of anything that'd damage our ability to work with her more than that; even odds that she thinks she understands being meguca well enough to try to assert herself as an authority figure and assume a leadership position.
We are not super secret agents. Nor is she. She has already broken the masquerade. And she doesn't give two shits about whether we defend her daughter's secrets because she is trying to save her daughter from becoming meguca.
...Fuck, she's probably depending on Kyubey to mindwipe us if she guessed wrong.
Lol, you think that those exist?
She doesn't care about the masquerade any more. It went out the window the instant she decided that her daughter was in danger.
Huh, that's a good analogy. Replace "I know that you're a magical girl" with "You all have track marks and I saw the local dealer's number in Hitomi's phone. Did you know that he's cutting his shit with fentanyl? Start talking." Yeah, she's invading her child's privacy. She thinks that her daughter's friends are all going to die horribly and that her daughter might follow them! Invading her privacy to avert that is her entire fucking job as a parent! And we're not going to gain points by trying to "protect" Hitomi's "agency", she's going to condemn us for getting in her way when she's trying to save her daughter and she'd be right to do so.
"Lesbian euphemism" doesn't explain Sayaka.
Mami is literally world-famous, owns Mitakihara, and has contacts throughout Japan.
She just said "I was a teenager too". She was exposed as a teenager.
How would this explain anything?
s/high school/the geographic area that she lived at when she was a teenager/
Point stands, it'd have to cover basically the entirety of Japan.
"This is going to sound a little bit strange". A group like that, the instant it makes it to the news it'd be national headlines, and then nobody would ever forget about it. It'd be iconic. Like, you'd hear about "magical girls" the same way people talk about furries IRL.
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