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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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[X] She already stands with you. She's a good friend, a brave fighter, and has enormous potential as a meguca. Switching under pressure is important, but it'll just take practice.
-[X] Reiterate how absurd her power is. You wouldn't be surprised if she ended up as the most powerful member of the group, in time. Expand on her usefulness to long term plans - she can do logistics that would take a whole team.
--[X] In the short term, she's doing quite well. Give perspective on what newbies are usually like. When Homura was as fresh as her, she almost keeled over in exhaustion from trying to beat up a barrel with a golf club. Don't, uh, tell her you said that.

[x] Greet Mami with spinhugs and declarations of being happy and having missed her.
[x] Training's off to a good start.
[x] Karaoke!
-[x] Have a duet with Mami!

150 words.

 
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Conjured Blade said:
Which is why we should let Sayaka in on her value as a research partner.
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Your idea is too speculative to justify the monofocus. Sayaka has massive and much more concrete humanitarian potential with refugees and government, and I don't think it'll help her self esteem much if we jump straight to "maybe you can somehow be useful in this thing that might be possible maybe".
Onmur said:
and I think 'peacekeeping' is actually one that's specially good for Sayaka while being light on the 'fighting' aspect.
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My focus is and always has been on feeding and housing refugees, so that is not how I interpreted you only including the most violent part of taking care of them.

I like Redshirt's lack of details here.

[X] Redshirt Army
 
Torgamous said:
While that's great, Sayaka specifically wanted to be useful to us. Or, well, her friends, which includes us. Telling her she could go be a doctor or something isn't quite there. That's why she needs to know our own non-combat plans. Stuff she can do that helps us in particular. Taking care of refugees and homeless meguca, conflict resolution, working our way up to a meguca New World Order. Those kinds of things.
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Vebyast said:
I think that the current crop of responses is the wrong approach.

This:

Sayaka is doubting her wish.

Read that again. Whatever interpretation we have, she intended it as "I want to fight by Sabrina's side". She said it as "be useful", but she thought it as "fight".

I worry that, if we continue the course of focusing on the word of the wish against the intent, she's going to reject her wish.

Not sure how to act on this, though.

[] Sayaka does stand with you. But the things you're fighting are bigger and stranger than she imagined.

Maybe?
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[X] Consider your response carefully. Make it clear you're taking her seriously.
-[X] Ask Sayaka if she intended for her wish to be all about fighting
[X] Her value probably won't lie in raw firepower. None of us is weak enough to need straight-up fisticuffs covered by someone else - Mami has Tiro Finale, Homura can attack as much as she wants in a single instant, and we've yet to find the upper bounds on our laser because we're worried we might light the atmosphere on fire.
-[X] She's already at a level of combat that required we call in a certifiable expert on fighting dirty just to make sure she keeps growing. If she still feels weak, it's not because she is, it's because Mitakihara as a whole is full of bullshit 'Guca
[X] But she's still useful, even without her powers.
-[X] Sayaka's a natural Paladin archetype, moreso than anyone else we know. Not only does she always know the right thing to do, she's capable and willing to stand watch and make sure everyone does it. We want people like her because they make sure everyone's on the straight and narrow.
[X] Immigrant 'Guca are going to come soon, and they might have a few bad apples. We're dependent on Sayaka, not to just beat them up, but provide an example and a lighthouse for them to begin readjusting to civilization.

Probably needs trimming down, but the gist of it is "Don't assume that just because you're not kicking the most ass in the group means that you're not the Paragon." If Sayaka's into western comics, we might bring up the difference between Captain America and the rest of the Avengers. They're all heroes, but Cap is the most "Hero" of them all, and even if it's not tangible in a fight there's a reason he's there.

Sayaka's probably the most Good, and definitely the most Lawful, individual in our group, and that's including Madoka. She's not useful because she beats people's asses, but because she has a extraordinarily firm moral compass. What she should be working on is trying to broadcast it more and clearer, so she can go from her current fragile Paragon state into a more solid Superman/Captain America type of paragon who people follow just because of magnetic personality.

A good litmus test for this might be Kyouko. The more Chaotic Good Koko becomes (She's probably sitting somewhere in CN right now) the more it shows that Sayaka's magnetizing the people around her.

 
I feel it's good to mention the part about helping Kyouko and Yuma, and bringing up the possibility of Sayaka playing Peacekeeper Mitakihara is good in that it shows Sayaka there exists ideas for what she can do for the team.

If we tell her, 'there's lots of things you could do' without giving examples, we're leaving her in some sort of mental limbo: We're feeding her pretty words, but without meaning behind them.

Expand on her usefulness to long term plans - she can do logistics that would take a whole team.
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I'm not sure about leaving this to Brinapilot. Putting down an example or two would keep this from falling flat on its face.

If Sayaka can't actually think up examples of how to be useful with her powers, she'll just get depressed here.

--[X] In the short term, she's doing quite well. Give perspective on what newbies are usually like. When Homura was as fresh as her, she almost keeled over in exhaustion from trying to beat up a barrel with a golf club. Don't, uh, tell her you said that.
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I agree with adding anecdotal levity at the end, to bring up the mood a bit.
 
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I think veB already brough it up, but Sayaka specifically brought up her worries over her own combat capacity.

"She... I dunno," Sayaka says. "I know you said that fighting isn't everything, but... ugh. I made my Wish so I could stand with you, you know?"
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Meanwhile, everyone who wants to bring up how Sayaka can help in other ways (me included), Sayaka's already acknowledged this and brushed it aside for this conversation.

I feel Redshirt Army's approach goes in the right direction, but we do need to give Sayaka some specific exmaples to latch on.

Actually, maybe we should cut the end of the vote and dedicate it all to this conversation? Sayaka's not hinting at easy problems, here.

Tally said:
  1. [X] Be reassuring.
    [X] Tell Sayaka about how most newbies are.
    [X] Explain that she already stands amongst us, experienced veterans and unfair powerhouses. We believe she's got the potential to surpass us all, and this training is about helping her get there.
    -[X] Admit to your other intentions, that is, to help Yuma and Kyouko.
    [X] There's something you'll need Sayaka's help with.
    -[X] Explain how Mitakihara's soon going to be crowded with Magical Girls. Lost, desperate Magical Girls. Tempers will be high, and we'd like none better than her to help keep everyone from hurting each other.
    [X] Greet Mami with spinhugs and declarations of being happy and having missed her.
    [X] Training's off to a good start.
    [X] Karaoke!
    -[X] Have a duet with Mami!
    Number of voters: 5

    Onmur, UbeOne, StellarMonarch, Zeroth Jupi, AuraTwilight
  2. [X] She already stands with you. She's a good friend, a brave fighter, and has enormous potential as a meguca. Switching under pressure is important, but it'll just take practice.
    -[X] Reiterate how absurd her power is. You wouldn't be surprised if she ended up as the most powerful member of the group, in time. Expand on her usefulness to long term plans - she can do logistics that would take a whole team.
    --[X] In the short term, she's doing quite well. Give perspective on what newbies are usually like. When Homura was as fresh as her, she almost keeled over in exhaustion from trying to beat up a barrel with a golf club. Don't, uh, tell her you said that.
    [X] Greet Mami with spinhugs and declarations of being happy and having missed her.
    [X] Training's off to a good start.
    [X] Karaoke!
    -[X] Have a duet with Mami!
    Number of voters: 2

    Redshirt Army, Torgamous
  3. [X] Tone is reassuring, unreserved: She already stands with you. Describe how lame most newbies are, compare with how capable she is. Explain that training is only partly to help her fight better, (her skills are good, it's her tactics that are improving). The rest is to help Kyouko and Yuma, both cash and grief. Kyouko is prickly, won't accept help, that's why pay is so high -- both are homeless, home territory has no witches, Kyouko is taking care of Yuma. Sayaka is already helping you with main goal of helping others.
    [X] Greet Mami with hug-and-spin. Maximum adorkable affection.
    [X] Minimal description of training. It's off to a good start.
    [X] Karaoke! Try your best! You're Mami's biggest fan! Be supportive of your friends! Have fun!
    Number of voters: 1

    Godwinson
  4. [X] Sayaka shouldn't feel too bad about not being there yet. Everybody feels like what we have isn't really our full potential. Mami, Homura, You? We all see just how much farther we have to go and we're all still working, hard, to get better.
    -[X] The real difference is that everyone else got here early. Even you basically cheated on the test. There's nothing to be ashamed of in being worse than someone who's been doing this hundreds of times longer than she has. Soon enough it'll be tens of times longer, then eventually two or three times longer.
    Number of voters: 1

    The Phoenixian
  5. [X] Consider your response carefully. Make it clear you're taking her seriously.
    -[X] Ask Sayaka if she intended for her wish to be all about fighting
    [X] Her value probably won't lie in raw firepower. None of us is weak enough to need straight-up fisticuffs covered by someone else - Mami has Tiro Finale, Homura can attack as much as she wants in a single instant, and we've yet to find the upper bounds on our laser because we're worried we might light the atmosphere on fire.
    -[X] She's already at a level of combat that required we call in a certifiable expert on fighting dirty just to make sure she keeps growing. If she still feels weak, it's not because she is, it's because Mitakihara as a whole is full of bullshit 'Guca
    [X] But she's still useful, even without her powers.
    -[X] Sayaka's a natural Paladin archetype, moreso than anyone else we know. Not only does she always know the right thing to do, she's capable and willing to stand watch and make sure everyone does it. We want people like her because they make sure everyone's on the straight and narrow.
    [X] Immigrant 'Guca are going to come soon, and they might have a few bad apples. We're dependent on Sayaka, not to just beat them up, but provide an example and a lighthouse for them to begin readjusting to civilization.
    Number of voters: 1

    Karnewarrior
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[X] Be reassuring.
-[X] And you will. At Walpugisnacht and especially if building an empire to ensure magical girls have what they need becomes necessary.
-[X] Admit to your other intentions, that is, to help Yuma and Kyouko.
[X] There's something you'll need Sayaka's help with.
-[X] Explain how Mitakihara's soon going to be crowded with Magical Girls. Lost, desperate Magical Girls. Tempers will be high, and we'd like none better than her to help keep everyone from hurting each other.
[X] Greet Mami with spinhugs and declarations of being happy and having missed her.
[X] Training's off to a good start.
[X] Karaoke!
-[X] Have a duet with Mami!
 
It's not just that Sayaka is concentrating on her combat power. She's worried that she wished bad, or that she wished out of alignment with what she really wanted to do.
 
Neither of those is true and we're all explaining why. You're seeing what she expected and misinterpreting it as what she wanted. She didn't want to fight, she wanted to be useful, she just thought that that usefulness would manifest as fighting.
 
Firnagzen said:
She has a versatile array of powers, but what is that versatile array of powers going to be applied to if not fighting?
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So she's under the impression that we don't want her to fight with us? Not sure where she gets that from, since we've taken her on a couple of Witch hunts already, and done several spars, and we're getting her training to fight better.

If she thinks that she's being sidelined because we haven't let her fight a Witch alone, well, that's addressed by telling her that unless you have a super-OP power, fighting a Witch alone should only be done as a last resort. She just happens to be on a team with two such people in it.
 
OK, thinking more, Sayaka's a teenager. She needs to feel she belongs (is similar) to a group while at the same time being the best at something (than everyone else).

Unfortunately, she's in a group of asskickers, making it harder to fit in.

So I had an idea: What if we set up more sparring sessions for Sayaka... With us? We can help each other improve together. We'd be helping Sayaka and she's be helping us with what we're worst at.

We could have nightly sessions, to avoid schedule problems.

I think this would help Sayaka feel she's making the extra effort to fit in.

As far as her role in the group, what she's best at, she could be the frontline asskicker... as soon as she manages to get one over Mami.
 
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Onmur said:
OK, thinking more, Sayaka's a teenager. She needs to feel she belongs (is similar) to a group while at the same time being the best at something (than everyone else).

Unfortunately, she's in a group of asskickers, making it harder to fit in.

So I had an idea: What if we set up more sparring sessions for Sayaka... With us? We can help each other improve together. We'd be helping Sayaka and she's be helping us with what we're worst at.

We could have nightly sessions, to avoid schedule problems.

I think this would help Sayaka feel she's making the extra effort to fit in.

As far as her role in the group, what she's best at, she could be the frontline asskicker... as soon as she manages to get one over Mami.
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We should make these lessons impromptu, and Sayaka could attack us at any time.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODGE!
 
Onmur said:
I'm sorry, but this does not address Sayaka's problem at all.

She's not gonna feel better if we tell her to not worry, that she's comparatively better than most meguca. She's got this team, and it's this team she needs to live up to, and not somewhere in the far, uncertain future, but right now.
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The message I'm trying to convey isn't "You're better than most" or "Your fears are invalid" at all. It's "You are not alone" and "Even the people you respect and admire have felt the same."
 
Godwinson said:
[X] Tone is reassuring, unreserved: She already stands with you. Describe how lame most newbies are, compare with how capable she is. Explain that training is only partly to help her fight better, (her skills are good, it's her tactics that are improving). The rest is to help Kyouko and Yuma, both cash and grief. Kyouko is prickly, won't accept help, that's why pay is so high -- both are homeless, home territory has no witches, Kyouko is taking care of Yuma. Sayaka is already helping you with main goal of helping others.
[X] Greet Mami with hug-and-spin. Maximum adorkable affection.
[X] Minimal description of training. It's off to a good start.
[X] Karaoke! Try your best! You're Mami's biggest fan! Be supportive of your friends! Have fun!
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I would avoid wording the payment for Kyouko and Yuma in a way that implies it to be a charity. I would instead emphasize just how effortlessly and quickly we got the money--we just stole in from the Yakuza in a matter of minutes while in timestop. The money is not for Sabrina; it's for the team, and Sayaka is a part of that team. Paying for lessons from Kyouko is the best way to spend that money by far.

I also want to emphasize that fighting Witches solo is something only done as a last resort, unless you have a super-OP power like Homura and a decent amount of experience to back it up.

----


We could even (with privacy constructs) explain to Sayaka that Homura, even with her hax power, started out by swinging a golf club at a trash can in timestop. Or how she could easily beat the Mami that was only a week into her career as a magical girl.

Perhaps we could say that the two things about Sayaka that make us worry about her the most are her insecurity and being too eager to prove herself. The former leads to depression and covering up festering wounds in the psyche, and the latter leads to acting reckless and taking unnecessary risks.
 
The Phoenixian said:
The message I'm trying to convey isn't "You're better than most" or "Your fears are invalid" at all. It's "You are not alone" and "Even the people you respect and admire have felt the same."
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"You are not alone... We all used to suck at some point. Except me."

"We all felt the same... We're better now, don't worry, we'll carry you so you can feel part of the team."

Sayaka's talking with us about her problems, and that's great, but what she's hinting us is the completely normal lack of self worth of teenagers.

We've given her the 'you're gonna improve and be OP' speech. She needs something else.
 
Another thing we could bring up is that yeah, maybe Sayaka doesn't feel her Wish was fulfilled exactly how she wanted.

We could share our frustration with our Wish's limit. We wished to control all Grief, yet it's gonna be a hell of a lot of work to spread the Grief cleansin to all who need it.

The less said about Mami's and Homura's Wish, the better.
 
I'd be cool cutting karaoke to add a couple of concrete examples of what Sayaka can do to the discussion.

Torgamous said:
To be fair, Mami did have to save our life twice before we got a handle on our power. That's twice more than Sayaka's needed since she contracted.
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Mmm. We had to save her in the spider fight - it would have filleted her otherwise. She didn't notice what we did, admittedly, but still.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'd be cool cutting karaoke to add a couple of concrete examples of what Sayaka can do to the discussion.



Mmm. We had to save her in the spider fight - it would have filleted her otherwise. She didn't notice what we did, admittedly, but still.
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And we should not comment on it. :p

Can you made vote upgrades? I'm at school and phone browing sucks. Suuuuucks.

[X] Redshirt Army
 
Onmur said:
"You are not alone... We all used to suck at some point. Except me."

"We all felt the same... We're better now, don't worry, we'll carry you so you can feel part of the team."

Sayaka's talking with us about her problems, and that's great, but what she's hinting us is the completely normal lack of self worth of teenagers.

We've given her the 'you're gonna improve and be OP' speech. She needs something else.
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...I'm not trying to tell her the "you're gonna improve and be OP" speech. I'm trying to find a way to point out that she is, in fact, feeling the "completely normal lack of self-worth of teenagers" you talk about. It's not something that's the end all be all of an answer, and I know I haven't done it properly and spent far too much wordcount on what should be an opener, but that's the point I'm trying to make: "This is normal, you're not alone in feeling this".
 
The Phoenixian said:
...I'm not trying to tell her the "you're gonna improve and be OP" speech. I'm trying to find a way to point out that she is, in fact, feeling the "completely normal lack of self-worth of teenagers" you talk about. It's not something that's the end all be all of an answer, and I know I haven't done it properly and spent far too much wordcount on what should be an opener, but that's the point I'm trying to make: "This is normal, you're not alone in feeling this".
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Do you think commiserating about our Wish's limits (and maybe our melee suckage) would help, or would that feel patronizing?

I believe what Sayaka needs is to level up until she can pull her weight in the group, and excel at something in particular by herself. Basic stuff.

(Which, BTW, same problems with Madoka, but ass kicking for her.)

But that takes time. BTW! We shouldn't pressure Sayaka too much in this conversation.
 
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