Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Well, may be time to add a bomb. The "Madobomb" or perhaps the "Winconbomb."
Then again telling Madoka things isn't going to blow things up as much as an actual bomb, so perhaps something else.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Then again telling Madoka things isn't going to blow things up as much as an actual bomb, so perhaps something else.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
..U...Yes it does?
The Potentialbomb requires explaining the loops to Madoka, which requires understanding Homura's perspective. Madoka was Loopbombed in canon, but didn't have the Potentialbomb to give the context to her own potential in relation to Homura's looping.
Even in EP11, when Kyubey is explaining the possibility of Homura realizing her struggle is meaningless and becoming a witch, he's couching it in terms of Homura's impossible chances of victory. He's not connecting it to Madoka's contracting in of itself being a failure state, only the resulting Witch-out.
Canon Madoka doesn't realize this, she only concludes that becoming a Witch is the problem, because that's what the data points to. She doesn't realize, when she makes her wish, that the wish IN OF ITSELF is harmful to Homura even if it goes perfectly.
And that is what the Potentialbomb tells her. That's the missing piece to the Loopbomb puzzle. And if everyone is dead and Homura has no chance to succeed...
If Madoka's hand is forced ANYWAY despite knowing how much it would destroy Homura...
She has no choice but to wish for things to go better next time. For Homura to receive the victorious world where Madoka never had to step up.
That's how we got here.
- Location
- Illinois
What possible reason would Kyubey have to potentialbomb Madoka but not Homura? He would have had to have possessed reason to believe that Homura would beat WPN for that to be his choice. Kyubey wants -- needs -- to witch both, or witch Madoka and kill Homura. If Kyubey was aware of the potentialbomb, he would never have willingly used it as ammunition against just Madoka. The very thought is -- it's inconceivable, for me, for now.
Nice theory, but why don't we just get some more information, here...
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
And this is were your frankly wrong, knowing that Madoka's potential is high because of Homura's timeloops would not need to require Homura's point of view at all. Considering the fact that Madoka knew about the timeloops in canon and knew that Homura was suffering because of said loops does not change the fact that Madoka has no reason to believe that Homura wouldn't be fine with Madoka achieve a happy ending on Madoka's own terms aka canon.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Honestly, it comes down to quantum free will bullshit. He made a different decision because this because that because this into infinity, just like any theory positing some other change.
But, sure, let me hazard a guess. Kyubey wants Madoka to witch out, and to end Homura's quest. He doesn't have perfect understanding of their psyches (because he got owned by the Madokami wish in canon and doesn't understand Homura's resolve), and he has the Potentialbomb to deploy.
Say Kyubey calculated that Homura wouldn't be stopped by the Potentialbomb, at least not coming from him. Or maybe Homura shot him instantly and didn't allow him to speak, so he wants to use Madoka as a relay, thinking she'd trust it more coming from Madoka, or at least allow her to speak before realizing the memetic hazard.
So, suppose Kyubey Potentialbombs Madoka, explaining that if Homura loops, things will get worse for her, and the meaningless suffering will continue. Hit Madoka right in the empathy. "The only way to save Homura is to make this loop the final one. The only way to do that, is if you fight with her. She can't beat Walpurgis on her own. You have to contract."
Kyubey's thinking that Madoka will make a Timeline-4 style wish. It's not like he has that sort of metaknowledge. He's trying to trick Madoka anyway so who cares. He's hoping, planning, that Madoka will make a contract to try to end the loops and save Homura. And maybe she will. But she'll still have contracted, which means she'll become Gretchen.
And if Madoka fails, and Homura loops again, why the hell should he care?
And then she wished to fix everything. She fires an arrow, and wipes Walpy away. Madoka dies, almost inexplicable. As if her wish refused to produce a witch. Homura loops.
That wasn't what he wanted. Oops. Still, with her potential, her wish should have produced a much more significant outcome. Strange. Very strange. They'll have to look into this.
Meanwhile, in another universe, a girl chokes awake on her own blood, knowing what she has to do.
Yes it fucking DOES, Speck. You can't have the Potentialbomb without the Loopbomb, and the Loopbomb already explains most of Homura's mindset. What it's missing is the reason WHY Madoka's potential is so high, and when you understand Homura's motives like Madoka did at that point, you connect the dots of "She wants to protect me from this fate" to "her looping increases this bad fate" and leads you to "contracting will make things worse for her." It's basic deductive reasoning.
Good lord, the above is WHY we were considering trying to head off the potentialbomb by talking to both of them in the first place.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
We are disagreement is that I don't think Madoka did understand Homura's motives if only because Madoka rarely seemed to understand anyone all the much throughout the show.
- Location
- Your Native Universe
Well I mean, Homura pretty much broke down in front of Madoka and explicitly told her that she was a time traveler, watched Madoka die repeatedly, and stated that she was in this to protect Madoka. So while Madoka may not have had a complex understanding of Homura's motives, she at least had the bare basics while responding with "uuuhhhhhh" because it's quite a bit to take in all at once.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
And yet the bare basics would not be enough for Madoka to change what her wish would be with simply adding on the potential bomb.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Speck, there's a difference between "I've been looping to save you but you always die" and "I've been looping to save you and your contracts make the next loops worse".
Also, you're being disingenuous, because we've SEEN "Madoka gets Homubombed and promises not to contract when she learns contacting hurts Homura" in the PSP game.
We ALSO see it in Homura's Revenge, and Madoka promises not to contract, only breaking her promise when Homura dies.
And I know you know both of these facts because we've argued about them before.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
1. Madoka also has been known to lie.
Madoka knowing about the suffering of all magical girls throughout all of time and coming up with a way to save them Vs Madoka knowing that doing so will cause Homura to suffer more, aka CANON final loop.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Um. No, fuck this, you're not basing an argument on the idea of Madoka lying to Homura's face while she's breaking down in tears telling her life story.
Madoka doesn't lie, and she doesn't do bad things. These are established character traits. The only times she's ever lied is to her muggle social connections about magical stuff.
If your counter-argument to the things I've said is "well maybe Madoka can do whatever the hell I need her to regardless of her actual character", then don't waste your breath.
- Location
- Your Native Universe
I apologise for that, but sometimes, Sabrina does know better than to say those things. Here's the thing: I have to walk a very thin line between letting votes play out as intended, and punishing (using the word loosely here) you guys for the votes. I like to think I keep to that balance pretty well, but I am sadly not perfect.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Can someone do a vote tally?
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Vote tally says there are no votes.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Nice quote-mining there, since I said an entirely full sentence with a different meaning.
Also, good job comparing the idea of "Madoka will lie to Homura about caring about her problems to "Madoka doesn't want to shove grief inside her BEST FRIEND'S SOUL and throw it away," because that's Octavia's Grief Seed.
Also, "I lied but couldn't keep to it for 3 seconds" isn't very convincing on the "Madoka will say whatever she needs to", front. The very scene you linked is an argument against what you're proposing.
Also, good job comparing the idea of "Madoka will lie to Homura about caring about her problems to "Madoka doesn't want to shove grief inside her BEST FRIEND'S SOUL and throw it away," because that's Octavia's Grief Seed.
Also, "I lied but couldn't keep to it for 3 seconds" isn't very convincing on the "Madoka will say whatever she needs to", front. The very scene you linked is an argument against what you're proposing.
Speck, you are either deliberately arguing in bad faith, or you have completely failed to understand Madoka's entire character. Either way, consider this a final warning: Shape up, or I will threadban you. You have a strong tendency towards nitpicky, disingenuously passive-aggressive arguments that, either through ignorance or malice, completely misrepresent any reasonable position. This might not strictly be against the rules, but it is not conducive to the atmosphere of the quest - and I do have explicit endorsement to make these decisions for my quest.
- Location
- Borneo
Speck.
Speck at this point you're just dredging up an unnecessary argument that needs to stop cause it isn't contributing to either vote or thread discussion at all.
So, please, just fucking stop.
Ninja'd
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
And aura has the Tendency to make bold statements of fact without brothering to give evidence for or admit he has none. but you are correct, so I will simply do that which will make this hopefully stop.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
You're right, I never preface that I'm making my own analysis or theories off of the available data, or saying I'm getting stuff from side-mangas or the PSP game or anything.
Oh wait that's the opposite of what's true. Stop following me around threads to start these arguments, it's grown dull.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
[X] Hug and comfort Homura. This is her worst memory -- act accordingly empathetic and understanding, and cleanse regularly throughout.
-[X] Very gently and carefully: You know what happened. How Madoka asked not to let Kyuubey trick her again. What she asked Homura to do. But keeping her from being tricked doesn't mean keeping her in the dark.
-[X] Explain why you think Madoka wouldn't wish, from your knowledge of loops that didn't happen. That if Madoka knows what Homura has done to protect her, she will only wish if all other hope is lost. That won't happen this time.
-[X] You know Homura has tried to tell others about the loops before, and how hard it is for her to talk about it because of everything she's been through. But she's not alone any more. You won't tell Madoka about it if Homura doesn't want you to, but you can help her with it.
-[X] Very gently and carefully: You know what happened. How Madoka asked not to let Kyuubey trick her again. What she asked Homura to do. But keeping her from being tricked doesn't mean keeping her in the dark.
-[X] Explain why you think Madoka wouldn't wish, from your knowledge of loops that didn't happen. That if Madoka knows what Homura has done to protect her, she will only wish if all other hope is lost. That won't happen this time.
-[X] You know Homura has tried to tell others about the loops before, and how hard it is for her to talk about it because of everything she's been through. But she's not alone any more. You won't tell Madoka about it if Homura doesn't want you to, but you can help her with it.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
[x] Godwinson.