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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Honestly i like none of the votes already given. They are either pandering, or defensive.

And the 'material, roots and growth' vote seems shallow.
Heck, there isnt really a right answer to the question given how we are STILL torn about the choice of following Cai.

[X] Because I want to see where she is leading towards.

Highly unlikely to garner votes, but it feels thematically appropriate and shows how about 30% percent of us chose Cai for the political drama.
 
Humbaba said:
The last point feels dishonest to me. Because it has been repeatedly stated in character that Ling Qi does not believe in Renxiang's ideals. She thinks they're nice. She knows that Renxiang believes. She is willing to be converted with sufficent proof/arguments. But fundamentally she does not believe in those ideals.
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My vote doesn't say that Ling Qi believes in Renxiang's ideals - because I agree, she does not. Rather, my vote has Ling Qi say that she think that practicing or being in contact with such ideals would make her a better person. It is a fine distinction but an important one.

The ideal itself is fundamentally both more optimistic and more selfless than Ling Qi is readily willing to accept; Ling Qi doesn't know if such a thing is possible, and there are limits on how much she would be willing to sacrifice for it even if it was. But those are only problems if you evaluate the ideal as a goal in and of itself. The act of working towards the ideal is valuable for Ling QI's goal of being a good person despite these issues. Ling Qi has expressed a desire to be a better person on multiple occasions, and it seems that she associates "being a better person" with having more selfless goals. Working with Cai means we would be working for something great, and doing that makes us a better person - even if the struggle is unlikely to succeed.
 
[X] Kai Merah

So, I know yrs has said that Lingqin is the Minister's given name, but given that as an offshoot our mother is likely to have not continued using the same noble family name, what are the chances that she made up a new family name based on a common given name in the family or a specific given name of someone she knew of? With the degree of physical resemblance and the original clan Ling Qingge came from being in the area, I think there is a good chance we're distantly related to this Minister. I also think that if this is true we absolutely don't want it (or even just the implication of it being true) getting out, because a family member in a relatively high ranking court position like Minister means Lingqin's family/clan is rising in status to be too important to ignore/insult or be automatically associated with.
 
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Not gonna lie, this update was hype as shit for me.

Been looking forward to seeing a high-realm cultivator.
 
In what way is "Because I want to see where she is leading towards" nice? It is completely inaccurate! AFAIK we were never motivated by curiosity over "where Cai was leading towards" even as a minor point, much less as our primary motivation.
 
So, I don't often participate in the quest part of this, but here's the idea I had...

[] I don't know if your daughter's vision for the future is possible, but it is beautiful. I think it is worth attempting to make it reality, and I can help her in areas she's poorly suited for, since I understand the darker side of humanity. I have spent too long living only for myself, and if we fail, at least it will be in trying to achieve something greater than myself.


I haven't read all the discussion on the vote, so if there's some issues with this, let me know. But it's what I have taken from Ling Qi's thoughts and conversations with Cai.
 
PrimalShadow said:
My vote doesn't say that Ling Qi believes in Renxiang's ideals - because I agree, she does not. Rather, my vote has Ling Qi say that she think that practicing or being in contact with such ideals would make her a better person. It is a fine distinction but an important one.

The ideal itself is fundamentally both more optimistic and more selfless than Ling Qi is readily willing to accept; Ling Qi doesn't know if such a thing is possible, and there are limits on how much she would be willing to sacrifice for it even if it was. But those are only problems if you evaluate the ideal as a goal in and of itself. The act of working towards the ideal is valuable for Ling QI's goal of being a good person despite these issues. Ling Qi has expressed a desire to be a better person on multiple occasions, and it seems that she associates "being a better person" with having more selfless goals. Working with Cai means we would be working for something great, and doing that makes us a better person - even if the struggle is unlikely to succeed.
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But Ling Qi's actions post joining CRX don't really indicate that Ling Qi is actually trying to be a "better person". Ling just did more of the same.

Here, I'll provide evidence:

Week 43: Cultivation, Training with CRX, spending time with Mother, spending time with Zhengui, meeting with Sixiang, turning down Gu Tai.

Week 44: Training and Item Research, Socialization with Zeqing, Meizhen, Sixiang, and Zhengui, Formations with Suyin, Haunted Mansion

Week 45-46: A whole lotta training and tutoring, Inviting Meizhen to the Vale, Advice for Su Ling and the Ma's, Spending time with Mom, Congratulating Xiulan, Party time for Sixiang, Finishing off Yan Renshu

Week 47-48: More training and tutoring, Shopping, Sect Jobs, Serious Spar with Meizhen, Binding Sixiang, Socialization with Hanyi and Zeqing, Fun times at an official Gala.

Week 49-50: Training and tutoring all day erryday, Sect jobbing, Introducing Zhengui to the family, Info gathering for Cai, Talking with Suyin, Talking with Su Ling, Training with Cai and ominous words from Sixiang,

Week 51: Training and Formations with Suyin, Words with Han Jian, Time with Xiulan, Time with Meizhen.

That is all that Ling Qi has done since joining CRX.

Spend time with Friends, Train, do Sect Jobs, and tasks from Cai.

Nothing here indicates that Ling Qi is trying to put more effort into caring about people she doesn't know. Nothing here indicates that Ling Qi is trying to be more "just". Ling Qi is still being Ling Qi.

So no, I don't believe Ling Qi is actually interested in being a better person, as she (and by extension the players) has shown no effort in actually trying to embody some of Cai's beliefs.
 
Roarky said:
So, I don't often participate in the quest part of this, but here's the idea I had...

[] I don't know if your daughter's vision for the future is possible, but it is beautiful. I think it is worth attempting to make it reality, and I can help her in areas she's poorly suited for, since I understand the darker side of humanity. I have spent too long living only for myself, and if we fail, at least it will be in trying to achieve something greater than myself.


I haven't read all the discussion on the vote, so if there's some issues with this, let me know. But it's what I have taken from Ling Qi's thoughts and conversations with Cai.
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I feel like this is mischaracterizing our motivations. Nothing you said is false, but this wasn't the driving factor for why we chose Cai. Not even mentioning the main reasons (resources, being able to found a place of a own) cuts out the majority of what actually motivated us, IMO.
 
[X] Kai Merah

I really, really dislike the formatting on this vote since it seems unfinished, but I like showing that we have lots of small reasons instead of one big one, and it covers our reasoning well enough.
 
But Ling Qi IS wondering where Cai is leading towards. Remember their chats? I distinctly remember her thinking in at least one occasions where she believes her childhood has done some damage to her POV and wondering if Cai's 'perfect world' is even possible and how it would look like.
 
PrimalShadow said:
My vote doesn't say that Ling Qi believes in Renxiang's ideals - because I agree, she does not. Rather, my vote has Ling Qi say that she think that practicing or being in contact with such ideals would make her a better person. It is a fine distinction but an important one.

The ideal itself is fundamentally both more optimistic and more selfless than Ling Qi is readily willing to accept; Ling Qi doesn't know if such a thing is possible, and there are limits on how much she would be willing to sacrifice for it even if it was. But those are only problems if you evaluate the ideal as a goal in and of itself. The act of working towards the ideal is valuable for Ling QI's goal of being a good person despite these issues. Ling Qi has expressed a desire to be a better person on multiple occasions, and it seems that she associates "being a better person" with having more selfless goals. Working with Cai means we would be working for something great, and doing that makes us a better person - even if the struggle is unlikely to succeed.
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If that is your intention I think you probably need to reword your vote slightly, as that really doesn't seem to be the obvious reading to me.

With that out of the way I honestly think that you believe way, way more in Cai than Ling Qi does. Ling Qi would like to work towards becoming a less selfish person yes, and is willing to hang around Cai and work with her with the hope that her ideals might turn out to be more than words. But in the end I don't want to put Ling Qi's quest to be a better person at the feet of Cai's ideals. Your explanation sounds like the kind of dependency I don't think is healthy for Ling Qi and seems to comes back to following her because she is such a spectacular person I hope it rubs off. Which is not the sort of thought that I want Ling Qi to have.

Friends and family can help. But Ling Qi wants to be her own person, with a family, not an idol.
 
[X] Kai Merah
Floom said:
But I do recall seeing a lot of people using Cai's resources as an argument, rather than Cai herself.
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Because a vocal minority of voters consistently thought the worst of Cai and were set on interpreting everything she did as evil or sinister for the dumbest of reasons and the resources were the only thing that could even be used to retort against that?

Coupled with that same minority consistently downplaying anything she did for us as a show a friendship or attempting to earn Ling Qi's loyalty as "not good enough" while ignoring both characters issues and upbringings that interfered with that.


Floom said:
Nothing here indicates that Ling Qi is trying to put more effort into caring about people she doesn't know. Nothing here indicates that Ling Qi is trying to be more "just". Ling Qi is still being Ling Qi.

So no, I don't believe Ling Qi is actually interested in being a better person, as she (and by extension the players) has shown no effort in actually trying to embody some of Cai's beliefs.
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Well yes if you have nigh-impossible standards of "trying to be more "just"" then of course you aren't going to believe that. Please point out to me where we ignored any options about saving orphans or rescuing lost mortals in those weeks?
 
Floom said:
But Ling Qi's actions post joining CRX don't really indicate that Ling Qi is actually trying to be a "better person". Ling just did more of the same.

Here, I'll provide evidence:

Week 43: Cultivation, Training with CRX, spending time with Mother, spending time with Zhengui, meeting with Sixiang, turning down Gu Tai.

Week 44: Training and Item Research, Socialization with Zeqing, Meizhen, Sixiang, and Zhengui, Formations with Suyin, Haunted Mansion

Week 45-46: A whole lotta training and tutoring, Inviting Meizhen to the Vale, Advice for Su Ling and the Ma's, Spending time with Mom, Congratulating Xiulan, Party time for Sixiang, Finishing off Yan Renshu

Week 47-48: More training and tutoring, Shopping, Sect Jobs, Serious Spar with Meizhen, Binding Sixiang, Socialization with Hanyi and Zeqing, Fun times at an official Gala.

Week 49-50: Training and tutoring all day erryday, Sect jobbing, Introducing Zhengui to the family, Info gathering for Cai, Talking with Suyin, Talking with Su Ling, Training with Cai and ominous words from Sixiang,

Week 51: Training and Formations with Suyin, Words with Han Jian, Time with Xiulan, Time with Meizhen.

That is all that Ling Qi has done since joining CRX.

Spend time with Friends, Train, do Sect Jobs, and tasks from Cai.

Nothing here indicates that Ling Qi is trying to put more effort into caring about people she doesn't know. Nothing here indicates that Ling Qi is trying to be more "just". Ling Qi is still being Ling Qi.

So no, I don't believe Ling Qi is actually interested in being a better person, as she (and by extension the players) has shown no effort in actually trying to embody some of Cai's beliefs.
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Your timeline is sound, but I disagree entirely with the conclusion you draw from it. We haven't been putting in effort into "being better", sure - but so what? We also haven't been putting effort into establishing a House. And we haven't been putting effort into collecting tons of resources. That doesn't mean those things aren't part of our motivations.

As an analogy. If I start a new job and cite my main reason as "wanting to get more money", and then after I started the job I didn't take a second part-time job for extra cash, I imagine you wouldn't have had a problem with that. Alternatively, if I bought a new car and cited "safety" as a major concern, I don't think you would have reason to question my assertions just because I didn't immediately start being extra careful when walking around as a pedestrian after my car purchase. So why is it that you find it inconsistant for us to have joined Cai to be a better person and yet have done nothing particular to further said goal in our non-Cai-related daily life?
 
How to put an answer to such a complex issue into three standalone sentences? Maybe someone better than me can figure it out, but for now I'd put forth:

[x] I want to believe.
In Lady Renxiang, and her way.
That there is more to this world than for a greedy girl than to scuffle for scrabs, among others not all that different from her.


Now I'd really like to extent the answer a little, in a mini-speech to give the needed background. Maybe something alone these lines. On the other hand, Cai Shenhua didn't ask for this random Green's life story, so it might be a biiiiit to verbose.

I want to believe.
I come from... base beginnings. So far, I have not found the Sect and Nobles to be all that different.
I am a greedy girl. I want to be more, I want there to be more than a mad race to power, the rule of the strong and the weak fighting for scraps.
Your daughter, Lady Renxiang, says there can be more. That there should be more. I do not know if I believe her. But I want to. I want to see her try, to do her work to bring order to this whole... mess.
I am a greedy, selfish girl. Enjoying her patronage and protection, the opportunities she grants me. But I also want to repay her in kind, and to lend what talents I have to her cause. Mindful of the shadows that all light casts and guard against them. For I want to believe.


These answers are all a tad too honest to be polite or be allowed in good manners and would Bai Meizhen cause to almost show a frown. But that's pretty much how Ling Qi always spoke, so I believe it is fitting.

If you prefer to have the reasons given in a list, I'd summarize it something like this.

- Idealistic hope for a "better world". More just, less rule of the strong and less base fighting for survival or resources.
- The desire to better herself and overcome behind her roots as a "selfish girl" and deal with the guilt from it.
- Material gains and opportunities are a tertiary consideration at best.

That is what I believe motivated Ling Qi, in character, to take up Cai Renxiang's offer of vassalization. The thread and voter base was certainly aware of the opportunities and resources present in the option, but from reading the Quest and Ling Qi's thoughts and feelings it didn't really seem all that present in her mind. For her, it indeed was a question of loyalty and believing in her liege or their goals.

Her desire for a more just world, or at least a world less concerned with base needs has been strong throughout the thread. As well as her desire to overcome her own, self-felt guilt over past actions. Renxiang offering that kind of 'vision', of an ordered, more fair and more 'noble' world is what I believe motivated Ling Qi the most to take up Renxiang's offer of vassalization.

And that is nothing she has to hide, even if more cynic people might deem her childish for those dreams or for believing. Well, that's their problem. But she should definitely strive to be honest and open with the White Cultivator who is famous for spotting hidden motives or intrigues.


This is all intended to be taken from Ling Qi's thought processes and motivations we 'see'. It very much does not reflect the arguments and most of the motivations of the voter base, thouse would be a lot more resource or opportunity weighted and care a lot less about Renxiang's vision.
 
TimEd said:
But Ling Qi IS wondering where Cai is leading towards. Remember their chats? I distinctly remember her thinking in at least one occasions where she believes her childhood has done some damage to her POV and wondering if Cai's 'perfect world' is even possible and how it would look like.
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Perhaps - but even if that is the case it would be a far cry from it being our main motivation.

Humbaba said:
With that out of the way I honestly think that you believe way, way more in Cai than Ling Qi does. Ling Qi would like to work towards becoming a less selfish person yes, and is willing to hang around Cai and work with her with the hope that her ideals might turn out to be more than words. But in the end I don't want to put Ling Qi's quest to be a better person at the feet of Cai's ideals. Your explanation sounds like the kind of dependency I don't think is healthy for Ling Qi and seems to comes back to following her because she is such a spectacular person I hope it rubs off. Which is not the sort of thought that I want Ling Qi to have.

Friends and family can help. But Ling Qi wants to be her own person, with a family, not an idol.
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What is wrong with wanting to emulate the positive qualities of others? You don't have to try to take someone as an idol for that; you just have to honestly appreciate their positive qualities and make an effort to support and share them. And in any case, isn't giving you the tools to be the best you can be one of the things family is supposed to do?
 
Grigori said:
[x] I follow your daughter because through action and reputation, she has proven herself deserving of respect. Moreover, I see Lady Cai's path as the best for my personal growth, both as a cultivator and as a person. Though I still question the feasibility of your daughter's vision a better world, it is a worthy goal.
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DeAnno said:
[x].
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Erebeal said:
[x]
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Arkeus said:
No 'home', just that the only IC reason Ling Qi so far has acknowledged was that she wanted something that was hers and hers alone. Not even mentioning the only reason we know is true is kinda weird. I don't mind the bootlicking of 'she has proven this' as it works and isn't false, but glossing over the actual reason we chose her and instead focusing on the bootlicking and on politician non-words is kinda ehhh.

While I don't mind a sentence if it feels it's a good one, I am incredibly wary of write-in sentence in our first meeting with Shenhua.
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[] Because through action and reputation, she has proven herself deserving of respect. Moreover, I see Lady Cai's path as the best way to create something of my own; as well for my personal growth as both a cultivator and person. Though I still question the feasibility of your daughter's vision of a better world, it is a worthy goal.

I don't expect yrs to use our wording but I think bullet points just seem too little effort. Not sure how to word LQ's "I am incredibly thankful to you and the Sect… but I want to make something that is mine." without just copying it though...

Still, I think that includes everything I want while avoiding being overly curt/wordy or disingenuous.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
Your timeline is sound, but I disagree entirely with the conclusion you draw from it. We haven't been putting in effort into "being better", sure - but so what? We also haven't been putting effort into establishing a House. And we haven't been putting effort into collecting tons of resources. That doesn't mean those things aren't part of our motivations.

As an analogy. If I start a new job and cite my main reason as "wanting to get more money", and then after I started the job I didn't take a second part-time job for extra cash, I imagine you wouldn't have had a problem with that. Alternatively, if I bought a new car and cited "safety" as a major concern, I don't think you would have reason to question my assertions just because I didn't immediately start being extra careful when walking around as a pedestrian after my car purchase. So why is it that you find it inconsistant for us to have joined Cai to be a better person and yet have done nothing particular to further said goal in our non-Cai-related daily life?
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Because you believe Ling Qi wants to be a better person through Cai's ideals, but the very fact that Ling Qi hasn't done anything to improve is proof that she doesn't actually believe in Cai's ideals.

And my moral standards don't matter here. It's Cai's standards that matter.

I don't hold the same standards as Cai. But if you're arguing that Ling Qi is trying to be a better person through Cai's morality, then I have to use Cai's standard to judge Ling Qi's actions. And by Cai's standards, Ling Qi is not becoming a "better" person.

1986ctcel said:
[X] Kai Merah

Because a vocal minority of voters consistently thought the worst of Cai and were set on interpreting everything she did as evil or sinister for the dumbest of reasons and the resources were the only thing that could even be used to retort against that?

Coupled with that same minority consistently downplaying anything she did for us as a show a friendship or attempting to earn Ling Qi's loyalty as "not good enough" while ignoring both characters issues and upbringings that interfered with that.



Well yes if you have nigh-impossible standards of "trying to be more "just"" then of course you aren't going to believe that. Please point out to me where we ignored any options about saving orphans or rescuing lost mortals in those weeks?
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Remember when Cai trained a support art even though it wouldn't help her in the tournament? For the sake of being a better leader? Yeah, that's what Cai believes is good. And don't forget all those Gan Guangli minors we passed up on, where we could have helped the Enforcers improve.

Once again, I'm not judging Ling Qi by my own standards of justice, I'm judging her by Cai's standards.

Stop trying to turn this into a morality debate where you attempt to turn me into a hypocrite or decry me as immoral. This is a fictional world, so I argue by the standard that you purport Ling Qi is trying to follow, and leave my own standards out of it.
 
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Anyway, its really cool to see that ling qi is not THAT unique given we are in the presense of someone who might as well be us in the future.

[jk] Ask the aide about her choice of spirits, for comparison.
 
[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

Seems good. My only worry is that is seems very self interested might imply that we hold loyalty to ourself above all else. Wanting personal gain is obviously not strange but if we see it as nothing but a way to further ourself it might send the wrong message.

I don't think it would be a lie to also mention how we dislike the way the sun princess wanted things run. A system of nothing but might makes right means that those with potential are crippled by those who achieve early. We have seen those who burn out and those who need room to grow, that order is thanks to Cai.
 
Floom said:
Because you believe Ling Qi wants to be a better person through Cai's ideals, but the very fact that Ling Qi hasn't done anything to improve is proof that she doesn't actually believe in Cai's ideals.

And my moral standards don't matter here. It's Cai's standards that matter.

I don't hold the same standards as Cai. But if you're arguing that Ling Qi is trying to be a better person through Cai's morality, then I have to use Cai's standard to judge Ling Qi's actions. And by Cai's standards, Ling Qi is not becoming a "better" person.
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...we seem to be speaking around each other. Can you address my examples, please? Actually, I'll rewrite them to make things easier to address:
  1. Alex takes a job, claiming that his choice of position is motivated partially by money. However, in his everyday life outside the job, he doesn't show particular fraugality or take up opportunities to gain supplementary income by taking a second job. Do you think this disproves Alex's claims about his motivations?
  2. Bob buys a car, claiming that his choice of car is motivated partially by safety. However, in his everyday life, when walking as a pedestrian Bob doesn't seem to be any more careful while e.g. crossing the street than other people; nor is he any more careful after the purchase of his car than before. Do you think this disproves Bob's motivations?
  3. Carol starts working at a nonprofit, claiming that a significant motivator for this is the desire to be a better person. However, in the two months after starting this job, she hasn't begun to donate to charity or otherwise exhibit "virtuous" behavior that she hadn't previous. Do you think this disproves Carol's claims about her motivations?
 
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