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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Well,I personally proposed my vote not because we decided Ling Qi is like that. Not even due to narrative reasons. No. That vote is a relic of the 'war' waged in voting for which side to follow and what we were expecting to get from said paths.
 
[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
 
ChaosRuneSmith said:
Seems good. My only worry is that is seems very self interested might imply that we hold loyalty to ourself above all else. Wanting personal gain is obviously not strange but if we see it as nothing but a way to further ourself it might send the wrong message.
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I feel like leaving out the personal gain side of things would be lying by omission given how much of a role it played in our decision. I feel that my proposal (which you voted for - thank you!) strikes a good balance by bring up the roots issue (which would create loyalty to the Cai family by its very nature) and the ideals issue (which is a non-personal-gain based, "virtuous" reason).
 
Humbaba said:
If that is your intention I think you probably need to reword your vote slightly, as that really doesn't seem to be the obvious reading to me.

With that out of the way I honestly think that you believe way, way more in Cai than Ling Qi does. Ling Qi would like to work towards becoming a less selfish person yes, and is willing to hang around Cai and work with her with the hope that her ideals might turn out to be more than words. But in the end I don't want to put Ling Qi's quest to be a better person at the feet of Cai's ideals. Your explanation sounds like the kind of dependency I don't think is healthy for Ling Qi and seems to comes back to following her because she is such a spectacular person I hope it rubs off. Which is not the sort of thought that I want Ling Qi to have.

Friends and family can help. But Ling Qi wants to be her own person, with a family, not an idol.
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Thank you for your input. And I can certainly see where you're coming from. If the vote is still ongoing when I get to my computer in a couple hours, I may look in to reworking it.

Or, I could try from my phone again. Maybe:
[] Because she has the resources to help establish and protect me and my burgeoning clan, and I trust her enough to believe she will not abuse her position over us. She is also on good terms and has aided Bai Meizhen, whowas of great assistance to me throughout my time here, and whom I both trust and respect. Besides, while I do not know if her vision for the future is even possible, it is beautiful and I do want to see if it can be achieved.


I left out the parts about "wanting to be a better person, " because honestly, I doubt Shenhua would care about that at all. But that final bit, I believe, is accurate. She thinks CRX may be naive, but also wants to see if such a noble ideal is achievable. Does this work better for you, also, @PrimalShadow?

EDIT: Not that I expect either of you to change your votes. I just want to know if this has suitably addressed your concerns with my previous suggestion.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
I feel like leaving out the personal gain side of things would be lying by omission given how much of a role it played in our decision. I feel that my proposal (which you voted for - thank you!) strikes a good balance by bring up the roots issue (which would create loyalty to the Cai family by its very nature) and the ideals issue (which is a non-personal-gain based, "virtuous" reason).
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Definitely agree. Acting like a mindless sycophant makes us unappealing and untrustworthy. Either we are genuine and we don't care about ourself or we hide our own interests.

I was just suggested we both say that we believe in her cause, since we did unless I misread something, AND we believe this will help us with our growth and that of our fledgling house.
 
Roarky said:
[] Because she has the resources to help establish and protect me and my burgeoning clan, and I trust her enough to believe she will not abuse her position over us. She is also on good terms and has aided Bai Meizhen, whowas of great assistance to me throughout my time here, and whom I both trust and respect. Besides, while I do not know if her vision for the future is even possible, it is beautiful and I do want to see if it can be achieved.


I left out the parts about "wanting to be a better person, " because honestly, I doubt Shenhua would care about that at all. But that final bit, I believe, is accurate. She thinks CRX may be naive, but also wants to see if such a noble ideal is achievable. Does this work better for you, also, @PrimalShadow?
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It is certainly more accurate, though at this point I'd object to it on other grounds. Mainly, I think the sentence point about Meizhen is too personal, and the first sentence reads as a bit naive. But generally, I wouldn't object to answer that says our main motivators are:
  1. Resources and Protection
  2. Our read on CRX's character suggests that she would be a fair and reliable liege
  3. We are interested in whether her ideal could be achiaved
 
PrimalShadow said:
...we seem to be speaking around each other. Can you address my examples, please? Actually, I'll rewrite them to make things easier to address:
  1. Alex takes a job, claiming that his choice of position is motivated partially by money. However, in his everyday life outside the job, he doesn't show particular fraugality or take up opportunities to gain supplementary income by taking a second job. Do you think this disproves Alex's claims about his motivations?
  2. Bob buys a car, claiming that his choice of car is motivated partially by safety. However, in his everyday life, when walking as a pedestrian Bob doesn't seem to be any more careful while e.g. crossing the street than other people; nor is he any more careful after the purchase of his car than before. Do you think this disproves Bob's motivations?
  3. Carol starts working at a nonprofit, claiming that a significant motivator for this is the desire to be a better person. However, in the two months after starting this job, she hasn't begun to donate to charity or otherwise exhibit "virtuous" behavior that she hadn't previous. Do you think this disproves Carol's claims about her motivations?
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Why are you asking for my personal view on those examples?

What matters here is CRX's stance.

If CRX were to answer such examples, the answer would likely be yes.

Once again, I'm not judging Ling Qi by my own standards. I'm judging her by CRX's.

My own beliefs on the matter are irrelevant in this case, because I don't exist within this fictional universe.
 
Floom said:
Why are you asking for my personal view on those examples?

What matters here is CRX's stance.

If CRX were to answer such examples, the answer would likely be yes.

Once again, I'm not judging Ling Qi by my own standards. I'm judging her by CRX's.

My own beliefs on the matter are irrelevant in this case, because I don't exist within this fictional universe.
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Why would CRX's standards here matter? Nobody has claimed that we are joining her because we want her to think well of us.


YOU had claimed that Ling Qi not acting to be a better person in her everyday life contradicts her valuing CRX's ideals for the sake of being a better person:
But Ling Qi's actions post joining CRX don't really indicate that Ling Qi is actually trying to be a "better person".
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That is why I'm asking for YOUR opinion on the examples I listed.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
What is wrong with wanting to emulate the positive qualities of others? You don't have to try to take someone as an idol for that; you just have to honestly appreciate their positive qualities and make an effort to support and share them. And in any case, isn't giving you the tools to be the best you can be one of the things family is supposed to do?
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It comes back to your phrasing and the situation.

Someone has X good quality, and I would also like to gain that quality while working with them is fine. But you go much further than that. You say:
"She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person."
in response to Cai Shenhu asking:
"Allow me to put the same question to you young lady, why do you follow my daughter?"

That goes much, much further than it being simply a quality you admire and would like to pick up. That makes CRX's ideals a central theme of everything we do in connection to her. It literally says that we follow her because her ideals (which we don't believe in or share, and IC feel there is a large chance we never will) will improve us. It virtually claims as a proven fact that Ling Qi believes CRX's ideal are right with the world and can only improve her. Because you are telling DUCHESS SHENHUA that this is why you follow her daughter.

But IC that's not true. Ling Qi might be open to being convinced, but there is a significant chance that she won't be. That Cai's ideals will fail. And whilst you might then claim that 'seeing Cai fail would still help Ling Qi grow as a person' that is not at all what is implied in this situation.

If we were telling a random person this the inference might not be so strong. But this is Duchess Cai Shenhua, directly asking you why you follow her daughter.
 
Humbaba said:
But IC that's not true. Ling Qi might be open to being convinced, but there is a significant chance that she won't be. That Cai's ideals will fail. And whilst you might then claim that 'seeing Cai fail would still help Ling Qi grow as a person' that is not at all what is implied in this situation.

If we were telling a random person this the inference might not be so strong. But this is Duchess Cai Shenhua, directly asking you why you follow her daughter.
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But Ling Qi hoping that she could grow to like the ideals- and at least trying is interesting- is one of the major reason Ling Qi had to choose to follow CRX.
 
Humbaba said:
It virtually claims as a proven fact that Ling Qi believes CRX's ideal are right with the world and can only improve her.
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Why would us thinking that the ideals can improve us imply that we think they are true? Hell, there are a multitude of beliefs that are questionable or outright false, but following which can make you a better person in some way. E.g. you can believe that "anyone can achieve great things with effort" - and that spurs you to be determined and motivated even though it is patently false, since there exist people and circumstances for which great things are sadly not possible regardless of effort committed.
 
[X] Because she is my best path forward. And I want to see where her path leads.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Despite the descriptions of overwhelming power, I don't feel Shenhua is as inhuman as Renxiang made her out to be.
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Then you're clearly missing out a vital element to her... what she has is ridiculous amounts of power... but the fact is that there is not even an inhuman semblance of Empathy behind that power is what literally everything about her has been pointing to.

If she were 'merely' powerful and inhuman but possessed of her own form of empathy then it wouldn't be so bad...

But you need to remember Lin Qi trained with an inhuman being who literally has an inhuman desire to Devour all things that she loves. And that spirit had more empathy shaped within it's power than Shenhua...


The when the Yuki-Onna is more capable of seeming human under inspection than you are... there's an issue there.
 
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[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
 
[X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.

Switching up
Adhoc vote count started by OneArmedYeti on Jun 8, 2018 at 1:00 PM, finished with 329 posts and 59 votes.
  • [X] Ling Qi follows Cai Renxiang because
    -[X] Absolute material advantage granting growth, security, influence, etc (up to yrs how much to elaborate on this)
    --[X] Integrity of Renxiang's character meaning she can be trusted to look after her minions
    ---[X] Interest in being a better person and seeing if Renxiang's ideal world is even possible to build in real life.
    [X] Lady Cai's offer was the one that offered us the greatest potential for growth. She offered us a home where we could extend our roots, opportunities that would let us advance as a cultivator, an ideal that would help us grow as a person.
    [X] Because she brought order when it was needed. Because the world she seeks to forge is the best for me and mine.
    [X] She told me that she would earn my loyalty.
    [X] Because I want to see where she is leading towards.
    [X] I am following her for the advantages in establishing my house and because I believe in her integrity as a leader who won't squander what I create... and to guide my own growth in such a role.
    [x] Because through action and reputation, she has proven herself deserving of respect. Moreover, I see Lady Cai's path as the best way to create something of my own; as well for my personal growth as both a cultivator and person. Though I still question the feasibility of your daughter's vision of a better world, it is a worthy goal.
    [x] I want to believe.
    [X] Power
    [x] I follow your daughter because through action and reputation, she has proven herself deserving of respect. Moreover, I see Lady Cai's path as the best for my personal growth, both as a cultivator and as a person. Though I still question the feasibility of your daughter's vision a better world, it is a worthy goal.
    [x] "It seemed like the most interesting option available."
    [x] Your daughter's offer was most attractive, and her goals and leadership proved worthy of my respect. I decided that me and mine will thrive for pledging my loyalty and efforts to her.
    [X] I follow her because she offered me resources, for the greatest opportunity to create and build my house, and to see if she can convince me that her words can really be more than just words.
    [x] Because I like living, and hate saying goodbye.
    [X] She gave the best offer. I trust her to be a good liege. I'm interested in seeing if the world she desires to create is even possible.
    [X] Because the world she seeks to forge is the best for me and mine.
    [X] "Your daughter has earned my trust that with her guidance I will become the best cultivator, noble, and person I can. In turn, I wish to faithfully aid her in the pursuit of her path, even if I cannot see its end as I am now."
    [x] It does not bother me to lie, cheat, steal and similar.
    [X] I am following her for the advantages in establishing my house and because I believe in her integrity as a leader who won't squander what I create... and guide my own growth in such a role.
    [X] I am not satisfied with the world or myself as it is. I don't know if it's possible, but I want to walk the long path toward justice at Cai Renxiang's side.
    [X] Because she is my best path forward. And I want to see where her path leads.
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I have a bunch.

[o] "She has that which I lack."

This is the answer which I would give if I were prioritizing darkness. Ambition, direction, wealth, morals, beauty, even - Cai has it and we do not.

It is a true answer, but worded in such a way so that it is not automatically crass materialism. Hopefully it strikes a chord with Cai Renxiang because she picked us because we possess things that she lacks - together a set of incomplete dolls.

[o] "Her offer was the most appealing."

Wind's answer. Not really what Ling Qi is about anymore, but, nonetheless, the wink and nod at Cai's wealth, but stated in such a way as to make it clear there is a certain amount of flippant subjectivity here gives it that windy flavor.

[o] "Because I am a selfish, greedy girl."

This is at once the truest answer and the most incomplete. If I were writing the scene and wanted to show how ballsy my character was - owning her truth, warts and all, I'd pick this. Unfortunately, it almost demands elaboration and you can't without ruining the impact of it.

But Ling Qi really does want it all. She wants to be herself, she wants to be strong and powerful, she wants her friends to stay with her, she wants her family with her, she has not seen an art she hasn't cultivated at least a little, she looks at Yan Renshu and sees a loot pinata not a rival, she is a little ball of want want want. She even wants to be true to Cai Renxiang while simultaneously having kind of sort of undermined her rule.

Basically, you don't get Ling Qi-ier than answering 'why are you friends with my daughter' from one of the strongest people in the world with a borderline insolent: 'Well, I am a terrible person. So yeah.'

So, for me:

[x] "Because I am a selfish, greedy girl."

Sorry, I know people wrote some great ones, but. Well. For me this is less an interview question I need to ace than a scene in a story that needs to show off Ling Qi's individuality. There has always been a certain fearlessness to her that has come from ignorance and while I think that is and continues to be dangerous, I think that we really cannot front here and just pretend we are the best parts of what we are.

Is it a risk? Absolutely.
 
We should get abiograohy of the duchess and look for key achievemts, breakthroughs and the age at which she made them.

Would get us a reference level.
 
FixerUpper said:
I have a bunch.

[o] "She has that which I lack."

This is the answer which I would give if I were prioritizing darkness. Ambition, direction, wealth, morals, beauty, even - Cai has it and we do not.

It is a true answer, but worded in such a way so that it is not automatically crass materialism. Hopefully it strikes a chord with Cai Renxiang because she picked us because we possess things that she lacks - together a set of incomplete dolls.

[o] "Her offer was the most appealing."

Wind's answer. Not really what Ling Qi is about anymore, but, nonetheless, the wink and nod at Cai's wealth, but stated in such a way as to make it clear there is a certain amount of flippant subjectivity here gives it that windy flavor.

[o] "Because I am a selfish, greedy girl."

This is at once the truest answer and the most incomplete. If I were writing the scene and wanted to show how ballsy my character was - owning her truth, warts and all, I'd pick this. Unfortunately, it almost demands elaboration and you can't without ruining the impact of it.

But Ling Qi really does want it all. She wants to be herself, she wants to be strong and powerful, she wants her friends to stay with her, she wants her family with her, she has not seen an art she hasn't cultivated at least a little, she looks at Yan Renshu and sees a loot pinata not a rival, she is a little ball of want want want. She even wants to be true to Cai Renxiang while simultaneously having kind of sort of undermined her rule.

Basically, you don't get Ling Qi-ier than answering 'why are you friends with my daughter' from one of the strongest people in the world with a borderline insolent: 'Well, I am a terrible person. So yeah.'

So, for me:

[x] "Because I am a selfish, greedy girl."

Sorry, I know people wrote some great ones, but. Well. For me this is less an interview question I need to ace than a scene in a story that needs to show off Ling Qi's individuality. There has always been a certain fearlessness to her that has come from ignorance and while I think that is and continues to be dangerous, I think that we really cannot front here and just pretend we are the best parts of what we are.

Is it a risk? Absolutely.
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Given you've gone with the 'selfish' vote, what do you think of @veekie 's idea? I quite like the selfish hint in that one as well.
The_Knowing said:
[X] Because she brought order when it was needed. Because the world she seeks to forge is the best for me and mine.
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I think "needed" is overstating it. LQ appreciates the order but it isn't much more than a convenience. I like the last sentence though and generally how snappy it is.
 
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