Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

What friendship argument?

I don't think I've ever said that she was any of those things. You seem to be attributing a lot of shit to me, when I haven't said anything about this before. My opinion is that she's a broken-as-shit kid, and probably isn't all there mentally because of her Mother's "ministrations".

To be honest, you're acting like an ass and jumping down my throat over some shit that's apparently got you all worked up. If you're gonna keep going with this fucking... fit, maybe you should actually argue with the people who have brought these points up instead?
You addressed my statements addressed to those people in the first place, though

Like, if you don't want to be put in the position of answering for those arguments, why even speak up on their behalf in the first place?

Like...thats too half-baked to even be considered Devils Advocate lol.

What do you even call that?
 
Anyway, Dragon husbando- how?

I forget if we're going to tell Meizhen about the dragon this week. If so, does that block the Dragon Husbando route?

Otherwise, it'd be real nice social link to have.
 
I agree with this principle overall, especially how it relates to our current situation, but I'm... Not quite certain you read what examples you were typing here, exactly. His family, maybe, but that's one character many have read as self sacrificing to an absurd degree. At many points in his series, at least-not that I'm going to be speaking anything more on this topic.
Mostly thinking about how he started a multi-continental war killing thousands to save his not-girlfriend. It's treated as a bad decision that he makes anyways to protect someone close to him. I could easily see Ling Qi doing something similar to save her friends.
 
I think Ling Qi's morals here matter less than the fact that she is loyal only to her friends. You can keep a secret from your employer, sure, but to someone you are trying to befriend? Plus Cai knows that about Ling Qi as well, that she doesn't particularly care about authority and the law.
 
Mostly thinking about how he started a multi-continental war killing thousands to save his not-girlfriend. It's treated as a bad decision that he makes anyways to protect someone close to him. I could easily see Ling Qi doing something similar to save her friends.

So what you're saying... is that we need to assassinate Sun Liling to protect Bai Meizhen during the tournament.


We'll have to blame it on Cai somehow for the plan to work in the long run, of course, but I think I understand now.
 
Well. So. I just walked and saw some of the shit cake that happened. Uh. Yeah.

I'm kinda glad I got emotionally burnt out enough on this quest before this vote to not be invested that much about this. Looking at it... I guess I actually don't... Hmmm. I do feel bad that the Cai offer is basically no longer appealing to me, though its kinda my own fault. Now to clarify whats going on inside my head:
I've been with this quest for a long time, I can't remember when exactly I first saw it but I think it was around Serpent's Treasure. I read it a lot and mostly kept to the background since I wanted the grasp of the mechanics. And one of my favorite characters is Gan. He's a character archetype I don't see very often in what I read and is basically adorable. I also found Cai to be an intriguing character herself, both as The Littlest Terminator, and as CRX. They have a very interesting interplay, and I was curious what would happen if we became her servant.

So, thinking about it I don't want... well maybe I do... blargh. Anyway, mainly, I don't want to take their offer with the favor's consequences hanging over it. It feels wrong, sort of like holding a knife while smiling at them to distract them from it. In particular I don't like doing that to Gan. And, interestingly this is not particularly being influenced by my morals, but my emotions. My reasoning is pretty easily summed up as "This makes me feel bad, I don't want to do it". There would also be physical consequences if we confess or were discovered(I do think that Fu deciding to fuck with us and we get revealed anyway is on the table, but for meta reasons I don't think it very likely), but those don't hold the emotional weight our relationships do. So, overall I'd rather simply say no to her offer and enter a more distant, not directly servile relationship since for Ling Qi service involves friendship and I don't want to read her interacting with them and having this eating at her until it does something horrific to her mental landscape.

Which is a good thing since Gu Tai and Sect are pretty solid options either way, and I do often get the hankerin to see what being a wandering cultivator would be like.

As for Husbando Wars. Xuan Shi all the way. THE Man who said "No" to Sun Liling's Fuck Everyone Blast with a Convenient Earth Dome. I mean, what else really matters but being able to say to a fourteen year old force of primordial bloodlust but "No"? Plus he'd be really good at helping us care for our Kid *ahem* Lil Bro.
 
It is easy enough to go ahead with the Cai route: just accept that friendship and loyalty both are limited, and we are going to have to keep some things secret from everyone we know. It isn't even a matter of trust; a lot of secrets aren't our own, and we have no right to tell them to another.
 
"Tell me, is it true that border province girls swoon over PR's in the squat rack?"

Ling Qi blinked at the sudden change in subject. Then she began to fan herself. Was it hot in here? It feels hot in here?
 
Given that yrsillar said he should have had this come up when we voted on whether or not we should swear fealty to her, I think we'll get another chance to talk about it then. He did say there could still be further developments.
Ugh that honestly sounds awful. Just another salt reactor. I think I'll pass on voting at all in that one.
 
Guessing that it won't be about the favor exactly. Probably something like:

[] Be open and honest with Cai
[] Ensure Cai always has deniability


Another vote over the exact same topic seems asinine. One covering methodology seems much more interesting.
 
Well, as a salt conoisseur, I can only get ready for the pure 100% freshly produced salt shitfest that the Cai vote will inevitably end up as. :V
 
Yeah another vote sounds tiresome and I voted in favor of confessing. It's okay to have paths closed off. It might even help with action economy. If we know for sure that we will never be a Cai vassal, there are large parts of our social network that we can cut off without regret.
 
@Humbaba, you can return now. You missed a lot of drama, but it looks like sockpuppets had hijacked the vote and your preferred option actually won. Honestly, be glad your ragequit let you miss the shitfest that turned out to be.
 
Last edited:
@PrimalShadow
Here are the assumption I'm planning to use to model the worms:

I'm going to treat them as invulnerable so I won't be tracking their qi and health.

The autosuccesses for realm difference presented a bit of a problem since I had been assuming that our hypothetical opponent was the same level as us at any given moment. Whether I use our current level or a hypothetical green/bronze tournament opponent makes a difference here. The worms were early yellow at AE1 and are still early yellow at AE2, so I don't think they will gain two levels by AE4. Currently when making a physical attack they will be early vs. late, which means a two success disadvantage, but if they level up to mid yellow/silver by the tournament they will be facing early green opponents which is two levels and a realm disadvantage, which is a four success penalty. I think the latter is probably more accurate( especially since we aren't going to be silver for much longer) but I will use the former since this isn't my plan and I want to give it a fair shake.

The worms' "always moves last" slowness is difficult to model because all movement has taken place behind the curtain so far, so it's hard to say how difficult they would be to avoid. I plan to say that with two worms summoned one worm will always be in position to attack each turn. If the worm hits it will deal its damage and inflict the defense penalty. This will occur each round.

Do these sound like fair assumptions to you?
 
I want to say that I agree completely with @Alectai on this. Staying silent, and this entire vote in general, has pulled the plug on the Cai route. It's all but gone now.
It is easy enough to go ahead with the Cai route: just accept that friendship and loyalty both are limited, and we are going to have to keep some things secret from everyone we know. It isn't even a matter of trust; a lot of secrets aren't our own, and we have no right to tell them to another.
The problem with this is the same as with this vote. When given a chance to get to know her, to challenge her beliefs and test them, we will refuse. Cai will forever be that far off figure that is our boss, but never our friend. We will not know her. Or worse, she'll be the meme we've made of her. An unfaltering terminator. A doll shaped by her mom. Someone who values EXTREME JUSTICE above all else.

Even you want to hold back from giving her our trust, so how can you say that the route isn't burnt? That there is a limit to our loyalty, when we've shown such for no other friend?

We've effectively tied yrsillar's hands here. There's so little we'll learn about Cai from this that there will be no cathartic release. Unless he really pushes it, the update won't even be enough that we could use it to deny the memes. No chance for her to shake the preconceptions people have formed of her. Even for those that don't have a set vision of her in their head, she's still unpalatable because this is hanging over our heads and every time it pops up it will be just as exhausting as this vote.

Which is the biggest problem. This vote poisoned the well. In any other case, yrsillar would be able to give us other chances, even if none would hold the emotional or narrative weight of this one. Now? Even if he does so, most won't take the extended hand. Look at the last ten pages for just a sample of how it's divided us. How toxic the subject is. Sure, they'll be a few die hards about the Cai route, but most people were never fanatics about it. The offer of the Sect was already tempting and the fear of Cai has been an ongoing background noise since the council formed. People have wanted another viable option.

All of the shit that came from this vote have made her that much less tolerable, regardless of if it was her fault.
 
Last edited:
To be fair.

Part of the reason the memes are a thing is because nothing has ever shown up to disprove them.

And the one time we talked to someone who actually saw what Renxiang's sense of justice is in awkward situations, he refused to talk about it.

The memes are partially there because of surface level issues, partially projecting Shenhua's monstrosity onto her, and partially because we never learn anything we don't already know as players when we take her actions.

Like, it's to the point that I halfway fear that yrsillar never actually intended us to sign on with her permanently, and he's desperately trying to torpedo it without outright admitting it wasn't something he planned, by making all the other options look so much more attractive, while allowing the memes to go unchallenged.
 
The problem with this is the same as with this vote. When given a chance to get to know her, to challenge her beliefs and test them, we will refuse. Cai will forever be that far off figure that is our boss, but never our friend. We will not know her. Or worse, she'll be the meme we've made of her. An unfaltering terminator. A doll shaped by her mom. Someone who values EXTREME JUSTICE above all else.
Calling this a chance to "get to know her, to challenge her beliefs and test them" strikes me as rather inaccurate. This was a choice which was guaranteed to be a betrayal of someone who had done us a favor, and inflict punishment of some sort on us. Certainly, part of it is an exercise in seeing how much leniency CRX would grant us, but even if that is a part of the vote it is by no means the main part.

If anything, I think this vote was a way to establish loyalty to Cai and her ideals. Certainly, if we are willing to give up the obligations of reciprocity towards Fu and concerns of personal benefit to be honest with Cai and come into greater alignment with her ideal of justice, that displays our loyalty - and establishes it, because actions have no small part in defining character. But note that that was a question of loyalty, not trust.

As for future choices... I don't see why we wouldn't take the chance to learn more about Cai. I see no indication that this vote sets a binding precedent in that respect, given that:
  1. The vote was MASSIVELY confounded by matters independent of trust,
  2. It was a close vote anyways, and
  3. It would likely had gone the other way if we had already sworn to Cai.

Even you want to hold back from giving her our trust, so how can you say that the route isn't burnt? That there is a limit to our loyalty, when we've shown such for no other friend?
I would be happy to extend trust to Cai, if it didn't require a betray of someone else on our part.

We've effectively tied yrsillar's hands here. There's so little we'll learn about Cai from this that there will be no cathartic release. Unless he really pushes it, the update won't even be enough that we could use it to deny the memes. No chance for her to shake the preconceptions people have formed of her.
Well, we were going to reciprocate in either case, which leaves room for character development here.

Even for those that don't have a set vision of her in their head, she's still unpalatable because this is hanging over our heads and every time it pops up it will be just as exhausting as this vote.
Yes, you are right here. I would just ignore it, but I admit that having this as an unlikely-but-possible crisis looming over our head does put somewhat of a dampener on the Cai route.

Which is the biggest problem. This vote poisoned the well. In any other case, yrsillar would be able to give us other chances, even if none would hold the emotional or narrative weight of this one. Now? Even if he does so, most won't take the extended hand. Look at the last ten pages for just a sample of how it's divided us. How toxic the subject is. Sure, they'll be a few die hards about the Cai route, but most people were never fanatics about it. The offer of the Sect was already tempting and the fear of Cai has been an ongoing background noise since the council formed. The fearmongering, the stress, the exhaustion, the straight up lies that came from this vote have made her that much less tolerable, regardless of if it was her fault.
Maybe. Certainly, people seem to have come up with a caricature of Cai that they are now waving around like flags. Then again, I'm not sure if this vote so much generated them as it unearthed them...
 
One of the main reasons I've been advocating for this Minor for so long is because of all the repeating claims of "Cai's so flat and boring." "We have no reason to develop loyalty with her because she's not our friend." This reasoning is then used to justify not wanting to pursue her "route" or Minors with her. You know, the things that are needed for NPCs to get screentime so yrsillar can develop them and show more of their characters? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What's worse is that we've already done this song and dance before. How long ago was it that people were complaining about wasting a Minor on Gan because of how boring he was, despite us only spending two or three Minors on him before now? And now all I hear are good things to say about him.

And now I'm already hearing arguments about the Cai route being "shut down" as a result of this whole mess. Which is infuriating, because now yrsillar will have to be more creative than I could really be to wrangle some kind of satisfactory character development for Cai out of this result.

And I really don't like the whole "JUSTICE DOLL" and "Maximum punishment or she's a hypocrite" stuff. Aside from the fact that "Justice" is a concept that's up for interpretation and can be debated over until the heat death of the universe, if taking mitigating factors into account or clemency in the face of unprompted repentance makes one a hypocrite, well, I guess that makes most modern justice systems unbearably hypocritical.

"But she just said how she considers herself to be a doll shaped to carry out her mother's goals." Well, it's not as if a teenager who's been raised in an unbelievably harsh and controlling environment while fearing that failure=death might have horrible self-esteem and always thinks the worst of herself. Or that the first surface impression of a person or situation might not actually be the truth. I mean, when we saw Meizhen thinking about how there's no way she's actually friends with or cares about Ling Qi in her interlude, and that she's a stone-cold Bai badass, no one actually took that assessment for granted, so why's Renxiang getting treated differently here?

And if CRX is starting her character arc like this, then that's exactly what character development is supposed to be for, especially with the help and influence of other factors and characters, who often tends to be the protagonist. Again, yrsillar told us that if we hadn't become roommates with Meizhen, then she would've gone full hermit and developed into just the kind of cold, uncaring stereotypical Bai that everyone expected her to be.

I mean, this is Xianxia. Isn't the story of a character breaking out from the influence of their upbringing in an abusively strict family to become their own, better person (possibly with the help of their unrefined but awesome friends) fitting for the genre? "Row row, fight the powah!" and all that?

So no, despite all of the OOC toxicity we've gone through, I refuse to just toss this whole thing out of hand as a lost cause, and hold faith that yrsillar isn't going to leave such an influential character as a one dimensional caricature.
 
Last edited:
I want to believe that's true.

But the well has been thoroughly poisoned after this, and it was already one where people would interpret literally everything she does in the worst possible light. The Surrender Debacle for instance.

Like, it'd be nice if not all hope is lost, because holy hell that poor girl needs hugs and headpats like crazy. But she has to be interpreted as sympathetic first, and that means having to charge through the wall of memes without the First Girl advantage that Meizhen had.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top