Remove ads

Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Reader mode
Floom said:
Oi vey...

I figured the worst would be over by now...

But instead, the morality debates arrived.

But seriously, does anyone arguing here actually want to be convinced? Or are they just arguing to convince the audience rather than the other arguers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, I'm arguing for the Cai's route still being open despite being undecided between it and the sect route, so, uh, maybe?
 
I'm arguing we should attempt to salvage Ling Qus character as a likable protagonist now that shes decided to become a corrupt cop. Yes of course, imo on the likable part. Clearly some people don't mind the corrupt cop.
 
Last edited:
Katreus said:
I'm arguing we should attempt to salvage Ling Qus character as a likable protagonist now that shes decided to become a corrupt cop. Yes of course, imo on the likable part. Clearly some people don't mind the corrupt cop.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So you're not arguing to convince the people who are engaged with you, you're arguing to convince the people who either don't have an opinion or are undecided, correct?
 
She's not a real cop. Cai's authority is not derived in even the most generous, abstract sense from the people's will but rather from her mama's pockets. It'd be one thing if we actually bought into her weird ideology but I don't think most of us would be prepared to do that unless we learned a whole lot more about it, and from what we do know of the conduct of her mother it already seems more than a bit rotten.
 
Last edited:
Neshuakadal said:
you are arguing some pretty devise actions to take. The better way would be to not do these things anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So? Whether or not people voice to agree or disagree, I am free to voice my suggestions. I think they make perfect sense. But then again, I'm less interested in ooc material benefits or disadvantages than what the choice says about her character and the impact. On the character arc.
 
Katreus said:
So? Whether or not people voice to agree or disagree, I am free to voice my suggestions. I think they make perfect sense. But then again, I'm less interested in ooc material benefits or disadvantages than what the choice says about her character and the impact. On the character arc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Just as I am free to call you out on what I feel are terrible suggestions that I don't think make any sense. I feel like keeping silent is perfectly in her character arc.
 
Thinking about it more and seeing this post-vote discussion, I am happier we're staying silent. It does ring true that Ling Qi wouldn't reveal this to Cai in response, as Ling Qi is all about personal loyalty, not ideological. And that loyalty and closeness takes time and trust and interaction on a personal level that CRX and Qi haven't had time for yet.

I can totally see Ling Qi feeling guilty and confessing down the line if Cai does manage to earn her loyalty, as those ideals driving CRX would mean more to her precisely because of their closer relationship, but I think I would have regretted having Qi open that up here. Both for the betrayal to Fu Xiang and for what I'm now seeing as a too sharp turn in her ability to trust and gauge her relationships' relative importance.
 
Katreus said:
Right. So we have a protagonist who is hypocritical, corrupt, and willing to abuse her position for her own gain without following the rules she agreed to accept this position under. I consider this an unlikable protagonist and a villain. Clearly, you disagree.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So, are you going to leave the thread over this, if you find her that unlikable?
 
Remove ads
The Quandary
  • Apocrypha
    • The Quandary

    The night was calm, peaceful. A full moon hungover head casting the mountain's shadow on to the rippling water of the lake. Small waves lapping gently at the shore in response to a slight breeze blowing down the mountain. There was no pressing matters for Ling Qi to address right now, nothing but the inner turmoil in her soul as she surveyed the scene from her position.

    Sitting on the beach with Zhengui as her backrest she could feel the comforting heat with every breath that Gui took, while Zhen's head splayed across her lap. There was no one else she could sense around her, no animals, no spirits, and certainly no complicated people. She needed this, Ling Qi thought, needed the peace and quiet, the time, to wrestle with her doubts, fears, and personal struggles and demons.

    So before she began, she offered a small prayer to the Full moon, for any measure of guidance that it would provide. Ling Qi didn't expect any help, but it was comforting that the possibility was there. Then she began.

    "Am I… a bad person? I steal from others, lie, cheat, misrepresent. I ran away from Mother, I ran away from Sun Liling, I simply run away from things that I feel are insurmountable. If I had support, then I might not run away, like that time Meizhen got attacked by Kang Zihao."

    Those were the days, when cultivation was all that mattered, getting stronger was all that mattered. Ling Qi's smile twisted upon itself though. Those days are gone, fleeting like the wind. Now her decisions had weight, her existence had weight. She was respected, and her opinion mattered. Trust was given to her, secrets that she felt uncomfortable holding. Secrets that ruin friendships, ruined lives.

    "To repay a single favor, I ruined two people's chances to get into the inner sect, and possibly a third. I didn't need to, I might have negotiated for a different favor or ignored it all together. Fu Xiang wasn't ambitious, he didn't have backing of the Bai clan or the interest of the Cai clan. I could have simply shrugged it off and said he misinterpreted things. Pay him the cost of the teleportation formation and be done with it."

    So many thoughts, so many choices. Reveal the frame job and the corruption to Cai, accept punishment, and move forward. Simply not acknowledge it and try to reverse the frame job so that only two people get hurt. Or, just move on. So many problems with each one, and nothing to guide her choice. Ling Qi looked briefly at the Full Moon. Heh.

    "It felt wrong to destroy those two people's chances when they had done nothing against me. Why though? I've stolen, lied, cheated, and potentially killed before. So why did this time make me feel as though a wrong has been committed? Was it because I didn't need to do it? That there was no personal benefit to me for doing it, simply repaying a debt I owed?"

    The waves lapping at her feet gave no response, the moon offered no guidance, and the mountain remained stoic in its silence. The wind carried no relief, and the shore brought her no comfort in her turmoil.

    "Can I even work with Cai knowing that I hid secrets from her, secrets that go against her core beliefs and goals? Is that something I am comfortable doing? Will I do similar things should I enjoy Cai's offer, or will I stop privately doing these crimes and simply do my more subtle work when and where Cai directs me? Can I justify breaking the law for my benefit while working with Cai to bring people to justice?"

    The frustration was getting to her, she knew. Objectively she knew that striking the sand wouldn't solve her problems, that the problem was too large in scope, affected her future in ways she couldn't perceive or understand, to be able to be solved or mitigated by striking sand.

    "When I was old enough to understand what my Mother did and fear the same would happen to me, I ran away. When I was on the streets, every day was a fight for survival and I could spare no thoughts on the morality or consequences of my choices. When I came to the sect I had to fear being beaten and taken advantage of by those who were stronger than me. When I am finally strong enough to hold my own, this CRAP comes up! WHEN WILL THE WORLD STOP MESSING WITH ME!"

    A flock of birds fled at her shout, but she couldn't bring herself to care. This was just so exhausting, balancing guilt with a desire to escape punishment. She then felt her companion stirring at her back, and Zhen looked up from his nap.

    Looking quizzically at her, then at the indentations in the sand, Zhen asked sleepily, "Is something wrong, Big Sis?"

    Ling Qi looked down, and began petting his head with one hand, while reaching her other hand to pet Gui. "Yes, there is something wrong, but it's not something that you can help with right now. It… involves people and how I act towards them, what secrets I tell them, and what their reactions may be."

    It was Gui who then spoke, "Are you sure mo… Big Sis? I can bite them until they start making sense!"

    "Yes, I'm sure." Ling Qi said with a small smile. "Thank you for the suggestion though. If you really do want to help, then I think the best thing is to just be there when I find places like this to begin thinking about the problems. It's nice to just think out loud without anyone judging you, or criticizing you, or getting you in trouble because of what you say."

    Zhen and Gui both craned their necks to look at her, "Just like what we did now Big sis?"

    "Yeah… just like what you did now. Thanks for being here with me Zhengui."

    Ling Qi wrapped her arms around him. Taking comfort in the fact that he was always going to be there for her. The wind, water, mountain, earth, and moon might have no comfort to give her at the moment, but Zhengui was here. And so she cried her tears. Tears of frustration, anger, guilt, shame. And Zhengui was there, a silent sentinel to protect her this night.


    A/N: People are complicated, and their reactions to the most predictable stimuli can sometimes surprise a person. I feel that there are no right answers, and that is why I presented no answers in the omake. The Guiding Moon might offer guidance to people, but internal struggles are not about the destination, but how you reach them. As such, I hope that this omake can communicate, slightly, the frustration and anger people have regarding this vote. So, as always, enjoy the read, critique and criticize.

    @yrsillar another omake.
     
  • Apocrypha
    • So, question @Katreus: if what Ling Qi has done makes her so clearly unsympathetic, why wasn't this the case a week ago? Where were the cries for penance then?

    I suggest that the reason is that Ling Qi was never overly attached to Cai's ideals, and so we didn't feel that what we'd done meant that we had to had to punish ourselves. Why should people change that stance now? Because Ling Qi feels guilty about lying to Cai? Is that a great crime that makes us completely unlikable? And why wasn't that a problem back when we did the favors? We were clearly going to have to deceive Cai about our involvement - why wasn't it bad then?

    Floom said:
    So you're not arguing to convince the people who are engaged with you, you're arguing to convince the people who either don't have an opinion or are undecided, correct?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Ok, this is not productive. Trying to convince the quest is how quests function. Trying to shut down debate in this way is not helpful.
     
    Erebeal said:
    So, question @Katreus: if what Ling Qi has done makes her so clearly unsympathetic, why wasn't this the case a week ago? Where were the cries for penance then?

    I suggest that the reason is that Ling Qi was never overly attached to Cai's ideals, and so we didn't feel that what we'd done meant that we had to had to punish ourselves. Why should people change that stance now? Because Ling Qi feels guilty about lying to Cai? Is that a great crime that makes us completely unlikable? And why wasn't that a problem back when we did the favors? We were clearly going to have to deceive Cai about our involvement - why wasn't it bad then?


    Ok, this is not productive. Trying to convince the quest is how quests function. Trying to shut down debate in this way is not helpful.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I'm not trying to shut down debate. I'm just trying to suggest something.

    In fact...

    This is not a debate. People are not debating. Debate implies that you're trying to figure out the correct course of action, rather than trying to convince others of your position.

    People are trying to get their positions to "win", defined as convincing a majority of the voting population to support their position, rather than determine the "best" course of action, "best" being defined vaguely as the course of action which provides the most "benefit", which is in turn, nebulously defined.

    So to me, this whole "debate" seems pointless, because the people arguing against each other aren't even trying to be convinced or convince the other party. Instead, they are all trying to convince a third party.

    This is politics, not an intellectual argument.

    So my suggestion?

    Stop trying to argue with each other, and start making speeches.

    I'm serious, stop trying to constantly rebut the opposition, and focus on convincing the people you're actually trying to convince.

    Step back, think about your position, and how to sell it to an audience. Then concentrate that into a single post, addressed directly to your target audience.

    And then, save your rebuts for specific threats to your position, and take it no further than a single rebuttal.

    Is this obvious? Maybe.

    But I feel it should be said, if only in a vain effort to cut down on pointless arguments between people who aren't willing to change their mind.

    Now, if people are willing to be convinced, then by all means, continue arguing.

    But make sure you're honest about what your goal is. If not with the the thread, then at least with yourself.



    Eh, probably a bit preachy, but I ain't a rhetorician.

    Just some guy plinking at his keyboard.
     
    Last edited:
    Erebeal said:
    So, question @Katreus: if what Ling Qi has done makes her so clearly unsympathetic, why wasn't this the case a week ago? Where were the cries for penance then?

    I suggest that the reason is that Ling Qi was never overly attached to Cai's ideals, and so we didn't feel that what we'd done meant that we had to had to punish ourselves. Why should people change that stance now? Because Ling Qi feels guilty about lying to Cai? Is that a great crime that makes us completely unlikable? And why wasn't that a problem back when we did the favors? We were clearly going to have to deceive Cai about our involvement - why wasn't it bad then?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    It was bad then. Commiting the cover up makes it worse.

    But it's true that I only came up with the idea of resigning now while I was thinking of ways for ling qi to resolve this.
     
    Im definitely more annoyed by the sock puppeting than the outcome of the vote itself. In fact, though i would have prefered if Ling Qi confessed, i find honest characters to be more sympathetic and enjoyable to read about, the current outcome makes the upcoming choice of Cai, Sect, or Gu much easier.

    Before i was waffling pretty hard between sect and Cai, but as i dont like developing relationships with their basis being in deception (in real life or quests) my decision has become particularly easy.

    ... Now that i say that though im sure yrsillar, being the excellent QM he is, will now make the Gu route so enticing i will once more be undecided :rofl:
     
    You know what? There's been so much indecision, turmoil, and debate over this that I feel we need to just get this all over with in the easiest way possible:

    [><] Confess your crimes and innermost feelings, seeking emotional support... From Bai Meizhen. Kill whoever Do whatever she suggests to make the pain stop.
     
    Last edited:
    Floom said:
    This is not a debate. People are not debating. Debate implies that you're trying to figure out the correct course of action, rather than trying to convince others of your position.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Uh, are you sure about that? Debating is a not uncommon rhetorical sport for high school students, where you are assigned a side of an argument and have to convince judges that your side is correct. That's the first thing that comes to mind. The second is things like leaders' debates during political campaigns. The only use of the word I can think of that matches your claim is when it means "trying to decide", ie. "Ling Qi debated whether or not to tell Cai Renxiang." and that use is generally limited to one person, not a back and forth between multiple like the other uses.
     
    [X] Admit to the deception. Apologize, explain, and accept the consequences.

    Ling qi has been wanting to turn over a new leaf of sorts and admitting this is one step closer to that.
     
    I honestly thinking 'debate' gives 99.9% of what's goes on the Internet too much credit.

    What we're doing is arguing, especially when there's no vote going on.
     
    Like I'll grant a lot of things

    But you guys assuming the worst of Cais rather fucked up yet blandly conveyed mindset as being insane is bad faith argumentation of literally the worst kind

    "A pillar of self control who refused to let that slip in the pursuit of the common benefit of society is actually an unstable wreck ready to lash out at a moment's notice" is frankly one of the absolute most heavy handed attempts at fearmongering I have ever seen in my life

    You're as bad as the sock puppets

    At least they had the presence of mind to assume that no one would believe their poorly conveyed arguments, whereas you all are standing there bright as brass as if people are actually dumb enough to buy what you're selling in the face of all available evidence

    Like holy shit

    The arrogance of it
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top