Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Medieval Europe had an uniting factor : The Catholic Church. Without a common religious entity the connected university probably wouldn't have emerged.
It would be surprising that a bunch of clans warring for power with no common identity would take time to create neutrals zones, especially zones that could be vulnerable to assassinations of talented scions of enemy clans or theft of cultivations arts. Add to that the fact that it was probably hard for non-Green to travel alone within the then deathworld and it is quite unlikely that the Sects predates the Empire
So what you're saying is that nobody had Sects before the Empire, and even then the relatively recent appearance of Great Sects suggests it took people a while to get good at it.
 
I seriously doubt that we'll have no opportunities at all this way. We're still getting a year in the Inner Sect this way, which is plenty of time to grab what we'll need for our future Cultivation.

Quite possibly. For example, it might be that Argent Genesis is it for sect cultivation arts - once you hit Cyan the emphasis is upon finding your concept and resonating with the appropriate principles of the world (the whole "understand the Dao/natural laws/etc" that shows up in many xianxia) and while the flexible foundation of the pair of cultivation arts helps you get to that point, you're on your own after.

On the flipside, there might be a third tier - and I'd be reluctant for Ling Qi to pass up on another stage of a cultivation art that seems to be designed to allow a stronger and faster advancement, and which is supposedly freely compatible with just about any other cultivation art.

And I do want her to be able to pick up more cultivation arts than Argent Soul, Argent Genesis and Eight Phase Ceremony. The permanent bonuses as one masters a cultivation art are... quite handy. So far Ling Qi has some bonus qi, boosted breakthrough values, roll-agains for cultivation, some auto-successes, some boosts to Larceny and Stealth, enhanced site die bonuses, more boosts to cultivation based on Larceny, can see in the dark, has a bonus store of qi and has a reroll - all from art mastery. While AS is focused on cultivation, EPC is not - and even so there's some permanent boosts to cultivation there.

It might well be worth looking for additional cultivation arts. Yes, EPC is going to be a priority at Green... but a quick flip to, say, a music-type or wind-type cultivation art might well be rewarding.
 
A little late, but I couldn't resist.

You believe in efficiency so while Ling Qi is already sitting down to tea you make your offer. True vassalage will have to wait until she hits Green and is granted a title of course. Still, you believe you made your case well. You're confident the only true competition that your offer has is Bai Meizhen, and she seems reluctant to press her suit. Though she reacted very oddly when you said it that way... At the very least Ling Qi will be more involved with you and your organization in the coming weeks.
You know, it's hard to believe, but could Ling Qi have rejected a position under Bai Meizhen? If we're going to win her over we really need to sweep her off her feet with a passionate message from the heart.
 
Like some of us have been repeatedly and fruitlessly stating. Ling Qi is ridiculously sneaky. She's successfully hiding against a Bronze 2 kitted out with Perception talismans and Perception arts, who needed to activate a special condition tracking buff AND double team with her perception buffing spirit to catch her.

Further investment in stealth is diminishing returns because the only people in the Outer Sect with a reasonable chance of finding Ling Qi outside of a fluke are:
-Sun Liling
-Bai Meizhen
-Cai Renxiang

We don't really need a further stealth art(much as it would be very nice), once we breakthrough even Sun will have difficulty.

Still hoping for a Larceny Wind Spiritual Attack art. Breathstealer anyone?

Ling Qi also failed stealth against two Late Yellows that weren't even paying attention at the time... Let that sink in.

The huge range of potential outcome due to the dice nature of the quest means her stealth can be both extremely high(ie: sun interrupt, last elder trial), or low enough that random dude can see her (ie: rolling a 4... again).
Moreover, diminishing returns would only be the case if we had actually invested significantly in it in the first place. All Ling Qi has stealth-wise right now is a partial Art and mundane skill.
Getting one dedicated Stealth Art after green breakthrough might go up to doubling her total stealth bonus (depending on quality and focus of the art obviously).

Consider: we get more bonus towards Music, Speed, Defense or even Archery than we do towards Stealth.
Really, Ling Qi just needs to make it clear to CRX that supporting our cultivation is a requirement for earning our loyalty. That should deal with any problems.
It's not. All she needs is to look pretty and make the thread go awwww.
Meizhen has the loyalty of the thread and didn't do much as support. Information is nice, but mechanically all she gave is 5 dice bonus training actions.

Mmmm... the increased difficulty in gaining Sect arts and resources with the Renxiang vassalship bothers me quite a bit - neither we nor Ling Qi knows just how comprehensive the sect's library is (both proper "sect arts" and what they've picked up) and, while Shenhua is indeed a powerful duchess... she's also a recent riser and her family may not actually have access to a broad enough library for Ling Qi to have plenty of choice in her chosen areas.

I don't know how much Ling Qi might be able to learn in a year - if that's long enough for her to grab more or less all she'd want from the sect, then great! I mean, it could be that arts beyond Green are extremely difficult to get in the sect (rarity and/or having to work really hard to get access), or Cyan+ arts are really a matter of individual cultivation and development than anything else. Or the Moon might have some things to offer at that point (you could see Ling Qi as belonging to two "sects" in that sense - the Argent Sect and "children of the Moon").

But if these aren't the case, picking Renxiang (especially so early, before the extent of Sect support and conveniently available resources is known) might actually be detrimental to Ling Qi's future.
A better question would be to ask what exactly would be the "Sect support" in the 8 years of military service.
For exemple, i very much doubt Ling Qi will have access to the Sect Library when stationed half a province away...

Meizhen is 15 years old now.
Aww, did we miss a birthday ?
Heck, did we miss Ling Qi's birthday ??
 
A better question would be to ask what exactly would be the "Sect support" in the 8 years of military service.
For exemple, i very much doubt Ling Qi will have access to the Sect Library when stationed half a province away...

It's a good question. On one hand, logistics would be harder. On the other, the sect isn't really likely to want to have the more promising high-talent commoner disciples stall out while they're young, so there's probably some mechanisms for gaining resources and arts and such.
 
Alright, let me weigh in on the discussion about the Bai, the empire and the sects.

Firstly it is correct to state that the Bai clan as a whole takes a very long view on things, much longer than most in fact. However it is still made up of individuals, and those individuals obviously have goals they would like to see completed in their lifetimes. Add in a highly competitive internal structure, as well as the traits you know they have.

For example, the clan as a whole does indeed regard the current situation as a temporary humiliation. However one must keep in mind that the Bai Patriarch is also a man who had his father and the majority of his siblings killed in said humiliation, among further slights.

Moving on from that, the empire is roughly twenty five thousand years old. I don't like the ridiculous numbers xianxia throws around, because they're effectively meaningless narratively, but timescales do get inflated by the expanded lifespans of the folks at the top. However, folks might have the wrong idea about what things looked like in the time of the Sage Emperor, talking about medieval Europe style polities. When I said that the Sage united the tribes I meant it. In those days having bronze weaponry was a symbol of high status and the skill of your clans craftsmen. Only the Sage and handful of great kings had fully metal armor.

The Bai are in fact older than that. The greatest and most heavily prized talisman is the Bai vaults is a crude three pronged wooden fisherman's spear with a handful of proto-formation script characters carved into the haft. Most records put Yao the Fishers and the Pale Maiden's time at about five thousand years pre sage emperor.

The same is true for the other founding clans, give or take a millenia or two.

Sects had some roots in the pre imperial period, several tribes had internal structures for testing and raising their youth after all. The inter province stuff didn't start developing until well into the first dynasty though.
 
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Oh I see. You're arguing under the assumption Meizhen will actively starting hunting Renshu.

Personally, I don't think she'll dedicate any more to Renshu than she would Sun Liling. Her getting info out of his minions was incredibly convenient for her to do at the time. I'm leaning towards the idea that she won't go out of her way to spend an excess of time on this, other than what basically falls into her lap.

People have already said this, but since I was quoted, I feel like I should respond. Meizhen is already dedicating actions to punishing Renshu, as seen from Cui interlude. She is already actively hunting him. She's set Cui on spying on groups several times, and only now has Cui found a group she can confirm is working for Renshu. It was definitely not just a lucky opportunity.
 
The Bai are in fact older than that. The greatest and most heavily prized talisman is the Bai vaults is a crude three pronged wooden fisherman's spear with a handful of proto-formation script characters carved into the haft. Most records put Yao the Fishers and the Pale Maiden's time at about five thousand years pre sage emperor.

Good lord.

How mighty is a talisman that ancient going to be?
 
I have some disagreements with you, @CircleTheSkies.
1. Argent Sect. She has a cultivation art and three of four foundational combat arts. Available in the future is a second-tier cultivation art, the fourth foundational combat art and successors to those combat arts.

* Looking at the sect, there is almost definitely enough breadth and depth of arts available to raise to prism.
* The nature of the Argent Sect's philosophy means that its arts are very compatible with any other theme or path.
* The quality of the arts so far seems to be high.
* Arts can be gained through the favor of seniors or through performing jobs for the sect; doing so seems fairly plannable and there's probably a wide range of options in doing so.
- We have no reason to believe that the sect arts extend though to Prism; we don't even have evidence that there EXIST arts that extend to Prism in this setting, rather than Prism arts being exclusively self-designed.
- We have no actual metric to judge the sect arts' quality by, so I don't see what basis you have for claiming that "the quality of the arts so far seems to be high". I mean, it isn't like we have any "standard" arts to compare sect arts to, do we?
- So far, Arts have been gainable largely through tests; that is not particularly plannable.

2. The Moon. She has a cultivation art and three combat arts. There are probably more combat arts available in the future, but to what extent and how many is uncertain. Whether there's another 'tier' of Moon cultivation art or not is unknown.

* The scope of the arts is somewhat limited - even going across multiple phases, there's going to be some constraints on Ling Qi's direction.
* The quality of the arts so far is definitely high - at Argent's tier at the very least.
* Arts can be gained more or less through patronage, with the requirements being somewhat arbitrary and very much "take it or leave it".
- We have all of ONE moon art right now - Eight Phase Ceremony, our cultivation art. It is likely that Sable Crescent Step can gain or evolve Moon Meridians eventually judging by the name. We have no indication that FVM will do the same, other then the fact that the art was sourced from the moon's gift.

X. There's some other themes that might become major... music, for example. "Support" isn't really a theme in the same sense - it's more of an expression of themes. "Archery" is likewise more like a means for Ling Qi to stick sharp sticks into unfriendly people.
- Archery is something Ling Qi explicitly enjoys, not merely a sharp-stick delivery mechanism. It can totally be a Theme - as much as Wind is, at least.
- Support is not currently quite a theme, I agree - but in the future it could be. We could start getting talismans that boost effects which buff allies, or arts that explicitly help us help allies. A theme is something that we define our martial path by; I don't see why "Support" doesn't qualify.
- Similarly, I think Stealth could be a theme, if we had some more explicit investment.
 
Meizhen has the loyalty of the thread and didn't do much as support. Information is nice, but mechanically all she gave is 5 dice bonus training actions.
She also gave us some super-useful tea back in Red, and protected us from Fan Yu when he grabbed us after Zhou's test, and shared a Trial Site with us, and rescued us from Chu Song.

EDIT: As @Thor's Twin mentioned, she also filled a Qi card for us, which didn't cost her much but benefited us greatly.
 
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She also gave us some super-useful tea back in Red, and protected us from Fan Yu when he grabbed us after Zhou's test, and shared a site with us, and rescued us from Chu Song.
And don't forget the Serpent's Treasure quest line, or the fact that she gave us one of her arts for our qi cards for use in emergencies, which saved our bacon against Huang Da.
 
- Support is not currently quite a theme, I agree - but in the future it could be. We could start getting talismans that boost effects which buff allies, or arts that explicitly help us help allies. A theme is something that we define our martial path by; I don't see why "Support" doesn't qualify.
I think that in the future (when we get to the super high levels) I'd like to see support evolve into "can support and draw strength from allies" because the higher you go, the less people there are. At the top tiers, we might not have enough allies of a level that don't instantly die for support to pan out. On the other hand, if it evolved into drawing strength from even low-level cultivators, that could work - and would give an in-character reason to remain worried about the plight of the little people, even as we ascend to the point where caring about mortal concerns is harder.
 
Moving on from that, the empire is roughly twenty five thousand years old. I don't like the ridiculous numbers xianxia throws around, because they're effectively meaningless narratively, but timescales do get inflated by the expanded lifespans of the folks at the top.
This feels. ridiculously inflated, even accounting for cultivators slowing tech growth. I mean that's longer than our estimates for human civilization by a good margin. Why not just say ten thousand years? It's still meaninglessly big, but also has a connection to all those 'ten thousands' that appear in ancient culture. It can even be considered a nod to Laozi's Ten Thousand Things.
 
This feels. ridiculously inflated, even accounting for cultivators slowing tech growth. I mean that's longer than our estimates for human civilization by a good margin. Why not just say ten thousand years? It's still meaninglessly big, but also has a connection to all those 'ten thousands' that appear in ancient culture. It can even be considered a nod to Laozi's Ten Thousand Things.

To be honest, technological progress is kind of secondary when infrastructure keeps getting burned to the ground in various calamities caused by gods running around.

And anyway, research and development is happening, it's just that the threats that your stuff needs to protect against is also evolving as well. It's a holding pattern if you will.
 
She also gave us some super-useful tea back in Red, and protected us from Fan Yu when he grabbed us after Zhou's test, and shared a Trial Site with us, and rescued us from Chu Song.

EDIT: As @Thor's Twin mentioned, she also filled a Qi card for us, which didn't cost her much but benefited us greatly.

She prodded Cai to offer us a retainership. Like, that's fairly direct cause -> effect on Meizhen's part. If we didn't have Meizhen backing us, and if Meizhen didn't want us to be under someone she thinks is suited to us, then we wouldn't have that offer at all.

She also went berserk on Sun Liling after we were hurt, twice.
 
This feels. ridiculously inflated, even accounting for cultivators slowing tech growth. I mean that's longer than our estimates for human civilization by a good margin. Why not just say ten thousand years? It's still meaninglessly big, but also has a connection to all those 'ten thousands' that appear in ancient culture. It can even be considered a nod to Laozi's Ten Thousand Things.
Well, it's not all that long for white cultivators. It would be about 30 or so generations of white cultivators. Probably a little bit more. Given that they would probably die before reaching 1000 from failed accession attempts.

All in all though, it doesn't really affect the story? Fantasy settings, in general, keep technology low, even accounting for amazingly long times that the fantasy setting has existed. I wouldn't really see a problem with 30,000 years old, or 10,000 years old, or 100,000 years old. It doesn't really affect the day to day struggles of Ling Qi.
 
She also gave us some super-useful tea back in Red, and protected us from Fan Yu when he grabbed us after Zhou's test, and shared a Trial Site with us, and rescued us from Chu Song.

EDIT: As @Thor's Twin mentioned, she also filled a Qi card for us, which didn't cost her much but benefited us greatly.
All of which is nice, but apart from the tea (that i had honestly forgotten) it didn't help cultivation. Which was the original point. Being given pills isn't going to make most voters start favoring follwing CRX over Meizhen any time soon.

Good lord.

How mighty is a talisman that ancient going to be?
Unless it's a growing talisman, or it gained sentience somehow, not much.
Maybe 2 dice to fishing and one extra DV against water-based creatures. It is a pointy stick with a few scribbles on it.

And if it is sentient, it's obviously not very talented, not getting to white even after 25-30k years.
 
I'd like to throw my support and voice behind not doing the bloody moons quest. The thread has been pretty adamant about not making Ling Qi any sort of assassin, and I completely agree. I love the grinning moon and the stealth and robbery focus, but I want to stay away from that as far as possible, and one way to do so is to avoid such actions, especially in front of CRX (assuming we take the vassalhood, which it is looking more and more like). I don't want CRX looking at us performing the bloody moons quest and thinking "Wow she'd be a good assassin".

Secondly, the alternatives are pretty great. New moon might up our social rank with Xin, and formations are cool as fuck. Plus, knowing how to make them can help us know how to break them. In addition we've already seen the strength of formations in the bone scout, which is pretty dang useful, and doesn't take too much investment. If we don't take a summoning art, instead we could build our own allies for our support build. The other alternative finds us a trial site which we love (might get us the last argent art, hint hint), and builds favor with the new moon, which I like as well. New moon talks about discovering and hiding lore, which would be pretty awesome for us. The hidden aspect resonates well with out stealth parts, and we have already proven to be pretty great at scoping out things meant to be hidden. Both quests add something that would be a benefit to Ling Qi's repertoire and her mental health and personality.

In conclusion, both alternatives are sweet as fuck, don't carry the downsides of the bloody moon quest, and should be taken. The only problem is leaving Yan Renshu up to his own business but I'd rather that then actively embracing a rather negative aspect of the moon. I'd like to go for more building up than tearing down.
 
If a modern sword was put against a newly made sage era(or earlier) weapon, the modern one would win. The old stuff has the advantage of the spirits they've developed over time empowering them far far beyond the material they're made from or the initial formations.

I'm aware that the number of years is still inflated, but anything 'realistic' runs into the problem of then only being a handful of white generations worth of history. It is what it is.
 
The Bai are in fact older than that. The greatest and most heavily prized talisman is the Bai vaults is a crude three pronged wooden fisherman's spear with a handful of proto-formation script characters carved into the haft. Most records put Yao the Fishers and the Pale Maiden's time at about five thousand years pre sage emperor.

Anything that old and treasured has to have a mighty spirit, and probably a haughty one as well. Can anyone alive even wield something that ancient? Or does the spear love the Bai enough to hold it's nose for them?
 
She also went berserk on Sun Liling after we were hurt, twice.
Yep, but arguably that didn't benefit us directly, so I held off on including it.

She prodded Cai to offer us a retainership. Like, that's fairly direct cause -> effect on Meizhen's part. If we didn't have Meizhen backing us, and if Meizhen didn't want us to be under someone she thinks is suited to us, then we wouldn't have that offer at all.
I suspect that if we weren't affiliated with Meizhen but still supported Cai the way we ended up doing, we would still have gotten the offer. I'm sure Meizhen's recommendation didn't hurt, and as it stands it was probably necessary for Cai not to come off as trying to poach us, but other than that I think our performance has been enough to catch Cai's eye anyways.

All of which is nice, but apart from the tea (that i had honestly forgotten) it didn't help cultivation. Which was the original point. Being given pills isn't going to make most voters start favoring follwing CRX over Meizhen any time soon.
Well, the Trial got us an art, and some nice pills. In any case, my point is that Meizhen has done a surprising amount to help us; that is all. CRX helping us would probably also earn goodwill, though it is a bit different; Meizhen helped us when we were weak and desperate, whereas CRX is helping us when we are powerful and relatively secure.
 
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