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Dragon Ball: After the End

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chryssalideater said:
Like to be entirely honest, the fact that we got to know about the genocide while not being able to get basic info about a plans chance of sucess is somewhat crazy.
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Um.

I think it's very reasonable that Poptart doesn't tell us which plans are likely to succeed while we are voting on them. I mean, if you're playing D&D and you're about to charge into a room and confront the evil wizard and you make a plan, the DM won't tell you what the odds of your plan working are. Nor is it realistically possible to calculate the odds just from knowing how the rules work.

What I've been going on about is that, in a thousand little ways, knowing mechanical specifics about one's own abilities and the abilities others are using directly in front of oneself helps people make sensible decisions about how to use those abilities in-game. And indeed that this is a prerequisite for using one's abilities as sensibly as one would expect, IC, the character themselves to do- in other words, it's a mandatory antidote if you don't want your game protagonist to be effectively holding the Idiot Ball at least some of the time.

But I don't expect, and I don't think we should ask, Poptart to constantly give us precise feedback on "so, are the odds of this particular plan we are now voting on more like 10%, 25%, 40%, or what?" That would be spoiled of us, probably counterproductive, and very difficult for Poptart to provide even if they wanted to because it would require using a lot of knowledge that is and should be behind the DM screen.

All I want is to know enough of the mechanics that I have an understanding of what we're doing in any given moment equivalent to what a D&D player would be able to understand about what's going on from having read the Player's Handbook.

...

[] Rebuttal Monologue
-[] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.

[] Rebuttal Monologue

[] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions

[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

Basically I'm in favor of "Kakara talking" votes in general, so I'm voting for all the front-running options that involve them. I strongly encourage others to consolidate because apparently we've got fragmented votes and there is NO REASON we should have fragmented votes when we have so kindly been provided with the marvelous tool that is approval voting.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by gamer50018 on Sep 21, 2018 at 3:14 PM, finished with 133 posts and 38 votes.
  • [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] Talk it out
    - [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
    - [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
    - [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
    - [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
    - [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.​
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
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Presently considering making relationship levels give hard modifiers to social checks. Currently I rule case-by-case, but it sure would put in perspective how hard your relationship with Dandeer makes it to talk to her if I had something firm in mind. Thoughts?

Also:

Vote Tally : Dragon Ball: After the End - Sci-Fi | Page 1305 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 32620-32751]
##### NetTally 1.9.10

[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
No. of Votes: 15
kitsune9
Borommakott
chryssalideater
Daecl
Doomed Wombat
ElleonXan
Geordiefan
KnightDisciple
Lucerna
nkd1325
Rihtan
SAGrognard
Tarantio
Terrabrand
WorthyAlchemist?

[X] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
No. of Votes: 13
QTesseract
Aranfan
DarknessSmiles
DarkSideBard
gamer50018
Gore17
KaintukeeBob
Mathematicae
Pittauro
Quest
Rmnimoc
Simon_Jester
The king Chad

[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
No. of Votes: 11
Gore17
Aranfan
DarknessSmiles
gamer50018
KaintukeeBob
Keldin
Mathematicae
Pittauro
Quest
Rmnimoc
Simon_Jester

[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
No. of Votes: 10
QTesseract
chryssalideater
DkArthas
Doomed Wombat
Geordiefan
Gore17
Simon_Jester
thamuzz
unObservant
veekie

[X] Damage mitigation speech.
No. of Votes: 4
chryssalideater
HoratioVonBecker
KnightDisciple
Terrabrand

[X] Make it about Jaffur
No. of Votes: 3
veekie
HoratioVonBecker
unObservant

[X] Nope! With Ally.
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
--[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
No. of Votes: 3
QTesseract
HoratioVonBecker
thamuzz

[X] Spirited Attack
-[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
--[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
No. of Votes: 2
QTesseract
HoratioVonBecker

[X] Appeal to Authority
-[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
--[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
--[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
No. of Votes: 2
QTesseract
HoratioVonBecker

[X] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
No. of Votes: 2
Deathbybunnies
Doomed Wombat

[X] Talk it out
- [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
- [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
- [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
- [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
- [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
No. of Votes: 2
Cariyaga
Grigori

[X] Nope!
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
--[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
No. of Votes: 2
QTesseract
thamuzz

[X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
No. of Votes: 1
HoratioVonBecker

[X] Kill Dandeer
No. of Votes: 1
deadcrystal

Total No. of Voters: 38
 
Simon_Jester said:
I strongly encourage others to consolidate because apparently we've got fragmented votes and there is NO REASON we should have fragmented votes when we have so kindly been provided with the marvelous tool that is approval voting.
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SO MUCH THIS. Seriously people, please.

EDIT: Like, the post right above mine. There are three versions of the same plan. For the love of God, at least vote for the basic version. If you aren't a fan of vicious additions or sense the fleet, then don't vote for them, but when the QM allows you to make more than one vote, do it.
 
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chryssalideater said:
"Indeed. The Saiyans have been"-gshk-"subverted. Garenhuld is yours"-gshk-"Minister T'Vael."
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wait, WHAT?! I CAN'T EVEN!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Gore17 said:
But... we knew that?
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the +/- 10 for every rank in styles and skills had been stated a few times, but i don't think it was in the rules before, so it was easy to miss and/or forget.

PoptartProdigy said:
Presently considering making relationship levels give hard modifiers to social checks. Currently I rule case-by-case, but it sure would put in perspective how hard your relationship with Dandeer makes it to talk to her if I had something firm in mind. Thoughts?
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I'm not sure. It would make sense for communication checks, but not, for example, for deceit ones.

It's a lot harder to peacefully communicate with your enemies (or people who dislike you in general), but it's not ALWAYS harder to trick them. Or at the very least is not as hard. maybe make the bonus/malus given to deceit a +5 per relationship rank, while the communication one gets +10 instead? Or somethin along those lines
 
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Wiadi said:
Okay, leaving aside any questions of "should" for the moment, you realize that we literally cannot do that right now, yes? Certainly not without a plan.
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Power level differences mean that during the fight Kakara had to exercise great control to not instagib Dandeer from just being in the same room as the fight.

She could literally burst Dandeer like ripe fruit by blinking in her general direction.

The idea that future!Kakara could cause enough disruption to allow the Senzu to get to their spaceship and escape the planetary rape spell and somehow be physically incapable of killing Dandeer is nonsense. Killing Dandeer is orders of magnitude easier.

thamuzz said:
1) She fucking hates us. A quick speech isn't going to change that.
2) She's won. Even with Yammar starting the ball rolling on making her doubt that, it isn't enough to overcome the fact that she is currently the most powerful person on the planet. When she's done gloating she's going to seal us into something that can't threaten her.
3) She fucking hates us. A lot.
4) She's kinda bugfuck insane. A quick speech isn't going to make meaningful headway against that.
5) She. Fucking. Hates. Us.

EDIT:
6) The consequences of surrender are death. Yammar, Vegeta and Jaffur all want her head, and they're all crazy in flavors that make talking them down a nonstarter.
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I really don't see the appeal of voting for any speech option when QM has explicitly said it can't make Dandeer stop what she's doing, which is frankly the only reason to try it.

If you can't convince her to not rape the planet what exactly are you hoping to achieve here?

Tell her about Jaron and suicide? She'll either deny it and do nothing, or listen to Kakara and decide to double up on the mind rape on Jaron/Jaffur to make sure that can't happen. That's not actually a good thing. Adding more rape is literally her go to solution for every problem.

Simon_Jester said:
There were probably a dozen good strategies we could have pursued during the Sealing and the Unsealing, and I suspect any of them would have been improved by us being more aware of how the dice mechanics worked and of what kind of rolls were going on in Kakara's presence or directly involving her.
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I mean, that's all true but all kind of rendered moot by the fact that we were never allowed to decide how to deal with Dandeer in the first place. We just got railroaded straight into a scripted boss fight with a preceding unskippable cutscene where Kakara and every NPC let Dandeer cast three spells in a row despite the fact they move a factor of a hundred faster than her and could have stopped it at any time.

Had there ever been any options there none of this would have happened in the first place. She'd have been knocked out by four SS at full power before she ever saw them, and then wouldn't have been allowed to wake up until her trial was ready and her abilities had been sealed into oblivion and every ongoing spell torn to shreds.

If we just kill her now we can go on playing AtE rather than the Dandeer 24hour channel! All Dandeer, all the time!
 
deadcrystal said:
Power level differences mean that during the fight Kakara had to exercise great control to not instagib Dandeer from just being in the same room as the fight.

She could literally burst Dandeer like ripe fruit by blinking in her general direction.

The idea that future!Kakara could cause enough disruption to allow the Senzu to get to their spaceship and escape the planetary rape spell and somehow be physically incapable of killing Dandeer is nonsense. Killing Dandeer is orders of magnitude easier.



I really don't see the appeal of voting for any speech option when QM has explicitly said it can't make Dandeer stop what she's doing, which is frankly the only reason to try it.

If you can't convince her to not rape the planet what exactly are you hoping to achieve here?

Tell her about Jaron and suicide? She'll either deny it and do nothing, or listen to Kakara and decide to double up on the mind rape on Jaron/Jaffur to make sure that can't happen. That's not actually a good thing. Adding more rape is literally her go to solution for every problem.



I mean, that's all true but all kind of rendered moot by the fact that we were never allowed to decide how to deal with Dandeer in the first place. We just got railroaded straight into a scripted boss fight with a preceding unskippable cutscene where Kakara and every NPC let Dandeer cast three spells in a row despite the fact they move a factor of a hundred faster than her and could have stopped it at any time.

Had there ever been any options there none of this would have happened in the first place. She'd have been knocked out by four SS at full power before she ever saw them, and then wouldn't have been allowed to wake up until her trial was ready and her abilities had been sealed into oblivion and every ongoing spell torn to shreds.

If we just kill her now we can go on playing AtE rather than the Dandeer 24hour channel! All Dandeer, all the time!
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Hi, @deadcrystal .
 
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.

gamer50018 said:
Neither of you have voted for the original Rebuttal Monologue. Please.
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I am not obligated to do anything :p

[X] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.

[X] Rebuttal Monologue
 
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
 
deadcrystal said:
The idea that future!Kakara could cause enough disruption to allow the Senzu to get to their spaceship and escape the planetary rape spell and somehow be physically incapable of killing Dandeer is nonsense. Killing Dandeer is orders of magnitude easier.
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prepared magical shields to survive the first attack and four super saiyans to defend her right after.
She might even have a prepared magical escape, like that sorcerer we met in the prison who used a spell to (try to) escape VERY fast.

Generally speaking,we were captured and she had all the time she wanted to prepare some spells just in case we managed to try something while she gloated.
deadcrystal said:
I really don't see the appeal of voting for any speech option when QM has explicitly said it can't make Dandeer stop what she's doing, which is frankly the only reason to try it.

If you can't convince her to not rape the planet what exactly are you hoping to achieve here?

Tell her about Jaron and suicide? She'll either deny it and do nothing, or listen to Kakara and decide to double up on the mind rape on Jaron/Jaffur to make sure that can't happen. That's not actually a good thing. Adding more rape is literally her go to solution for every problem.
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1) we can't make her surrender. That's the only impossible thing with communication
2)Jaffur is there, and is (more or less) free to talk. He'll probably conferm the suicide thing
3) she might double down on the mindrape. Or she might try to give him a little freedom, deluded into thinking that he'll change his mind without her having to rewrite his mind. After all doing otherwise would be proving Yammar right :p
deadcrystal said:
I mean, that's all true but all kind of rendered moot by the fact that we were never allowed to decide how to deal with Dandeer in the first place. We just got railroaded straight into a scripted boss fight with a preceding unskippable cutscene where Kakara and every NPC let Dandeer cast three spells in a row despite the fact they move a factor of a hundred faster than her and could have stopped it at any time.

Had there ever been any options there none of this would have happened in the first place. She'd have been knocked out by four SS at full power before she ever saw them, and then wouldn't have been allowed to wake up until her trial was ready and her abilities had been sealed into oblivion and every ongoing spell torn to shreds.
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this again? I won't even argue it because it has already been done enough on both sides of the arguement. Let's just drop it.

deadcrystal said:
If we just kill her now we can go on playing AtE rather than the Dandeer 24hour channel! All Dandeer, all the time!
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While i wouldn't be against killing her, right now it's probably NOT the best moment.

1) she's probably protected by enough spells that she would survive long enough for the other ssj to stop us
2) even if we succeed and kill her, the mind controlled ssj would probably kill us as well. We have no reason to believe the spell ends with her life, and we'd be 1 (maybe 2 with Yammar) vs 3 or 4(Apra, Berra, Vegeta. Possibly 4 depending on how the spell on Jaffur works right now)
 
Pittauro said:
I'm not sure. It would make sense for communication checks, but not, for example, for deceit ones.

It's a lot harder to peacefully communicate with your enemies (or people who dislike you in general), but it's not ALWAYS harder to trick them. Or at the very least is not as hard. maybe make the bonus/malus given to deceit a +5 per relationship rank, while the communication one gets +10 instead? Or somethin along those lines
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Well, it'd make sense for some Deceit checks and not for others.

deadcrystal said:
Power level differences mean that during the fight Kakara had to exercise great control to not instagib Dandeer from just being in the same room as the fight.

She could literally burst Dandeer like ripe fruit by blinking in her general direction.
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There are four mind-controlled super-saiyans in the room on Dandeer's side, and we know she's capable of creating shields that can withstand at least single shots from super-saiyans. Heck, what do you think the Hall wards are? They're artifacts of sorcery, they have to be strong enough to tank super-saiyan blasts coming from inside, and someone no more powerful and skilled than Dandeer created them.

Her raising a magical shield that would deflect an outright Dodonpa or other blast attack from us is far from out of the question... And if she can withstand that, we have no reason to assume we can kill her by belching at her or anything.

The idea that future!Kakara could cause enough disruption to allow the Senzu to get to their spaceship and escape the planetary rape spell and somehow be physically incapable of killing Dandeer is nonsense. Killing Dandeer is orders of magnitude easier.
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Please stop dismissing things as nonsense when they are being directly said to us by someone with no reason to lie.

For example, it's quite possible that Future!Kakara may have already scried out the possibility of killing Dandeer and decided it would make things worse. I discussed this issue about the fight earlier- murdering Dandeer while there are powerful mind-controlled guardians around could result in US getting murdered, or some other disaster that ultimately guts Garenhuld's defenses and future even worse than Dandeer's temporary domination of the planet would.

I really don't see the appeal of voting for any speech option when QM has explicitly said it can't make Dandeer stop what she's doing, which is frankly the only reason to try it.
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Oh come on. Poptart explicitly said that we can't talk Dandeer into surrendering to us, which you have to admit would be a really fucking stupid thing to do right now from her perspective. Normally you talk the boss into giving up either before the boss battle, or after you win it- not after the boss defeats you.

Poptart said literally NOTHING to indicate that we can't convince Dandeer of other things.

I mean, that's all true but all kind of rendered moot by the fact that we were never allowed to decide how to deal with Dandeer in the first place. We just got railroaded straight into a scripted boss fight with a preceding unskippable cutscene where Kakara and every NPC let Dandeer cast three spells in a row despite the fact they move a factor of a hundred faster than her and could have stopped it at any time.

Had there ever been any options there none of this would have happened in the first place. She'd have been knocked out by four SS at full power before she ever saw them, and then wouldn't have been allowed to wake up until her trial was ready and her abilities had been sealed into oblivion and every ongoing spell torn to shreds.
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That plan went out the window when Berra LEEROY JENKINS'd in response to us telling him what Dandeer had done. Which was an unfortunate outcome, but an outcome of a plan which we DID agree to do. Because we were more worried about Berra opposing us than we were about Dandeer having mind control 'sleeper cells' planted to get super-saiyans on her side, so we confronted Berra first.

I mean, I'm not happy with how the vote options on our tactics running up to the Unsealing were managed, but it's not like we didn't have choices.

We could have gone Spirit Saiyan while Dandelor Senzu was un-Sealing Jaffur. That would have trivialized the whole fight. It wouldn't matter how many of the other royals Dandeer mind-controlled, we'd be able to pin them all down with telekinesis and overcharge Dandelor's spells so hard that he'd be able to shatter anything and everything he wanted.

We could have used our Sight to foresee what might happen today, in the morning before any of this happened. I don't know what we might have learned, but any of a vast number of possible visions or insights we might have had could have warned us that something was horribly wrong and that we needed to take more precautions (e.g. have Dandelor sweep Yammar for mind control, which would have turned this whole fight decisively in our favor).

We had choices. We did not take them. That's not because we were crazy or stupid, we had reasons for the things we did at the time. But we had choices. Even choices that could have won this one.

Doomed Wombat said:
I am not obligated to do anything :p
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Indeed. And that is why @gamer50018 is doing the thing known as 'pleading' and not just the thing known as 'commanding.' :p
 
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Simon_Jester said:
But I don't expect, and I don't think we should ask, Poptart to constantly give us precise feedback on "so, are the odds of this particular plan we are now voting on more like 10%, 25%, 40%, or what?" That would be spoiled of us, probably counterproductive, and very difficult for Poptart to provide even if they wanted to because it would require using a lot of knowledge that is and should be behind the DM screen.
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I didn't mean percentages. I just meant a ballpark of "Kakara thinks there might be a chance," or "So low it's not worth talking about." Or when people discussed downsides to chargin spirit saiyan for this fight, maybe a confirmation of whether any of those downsides held water.
 
In other news, I'm running a quest. Only on the first actual update, but it exists. If you're interested, I'm currently taking questions to keep my muse going and kickstart the discussion. Take a look if you're interested.
 
chryssalideater said:
I didn't mean percentages. I just meant a ballpark of "Kakara thinks there might be a chance," or "So low it's not worth talking about." Or when people discussed downsides to chargin spirit saiyan for this fight, maybe a confirmation of whether any of those downsides held water.
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Poptart's made enough of a good faith effort along those lines in THIS vote that I don't think we have reason to complain.

As to the spirit saiyan thing... Well, the only downside I can remember was "Dandeer might have a counter for Spirit Saiyan." And that would be totally unknown, we have no way of even guesstimating that, nor does Kakara know enough about magic theory to make educated guesses as to whether it would be possible, and Dandelor (our magic advisor) was too busy to help us.

Poptart giving us in-character information in that instance wouldn't have helped much.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Poptart's made enough of a good faith effort along those lines in THIS vote that I don't think we have reason to complain.

As to the spirit saiyan thing... Well, the only downside I can remember was "Dandeer might have a counter for Spirit Saiyan." And that would be totally unknown, we have no way of even guesstimating that, nor does Kakara know enough about magic theory to make educated guesses as to whether it would be possible, and Dandelor (our magic advisor) was too busy to help us.

Poptart giving us in-character information in that instance wouldn't have helped much.
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I seem to recall a bunch of people debating political ramifications and/or alerting Dandeer ahead of schedule, though I could be mistaken.
 
*braindead drooling*.

...huh? Wha? You want me to do a thing? Well ok.


[X] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.

[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

Edit: aaaaaaand one more

[X] Rebuttal Monologue
 
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...So, is anyone interested in my quest? I'm sorry if I'm annoying, I just want someone to at least show they have some interest... I have a few self confidence issues.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Presently considering making relationship levels give hard modifiers to social checks. Currently I rule case-by-case, but it sure would put in perspective how hard your relationship with Dandeer makes it to talk to her if I had something firm in mind. Thoughts?
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Honestly, I'm all for it. But I don't want to social Dandeer, I want to break her.

Does an attempt to verbally assault and break her count as a social roll?
 
chryssalideater said:
I seem to recall a bunch of people debating political ramifications and/or alerting Dandeer ahead of schedule, though I could be mistaken.
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I mean, maybe so, but those are ALSO things we probably couldn't count on getting a straight answer on.

Basically, while I agree that the QM should be willing to share the main character's own assessment of whether something is a very likely or unlikely plan to succeed, I don't expect that information to always be available. If we know the underlying mechanics in the "read the player's handbook" sense, I would expect us to have about as good an ability to predict the odds of a plan's success as we have any rights to ask for. So I don't want to make a stink about this.

redzonejoe said:
*braindead drooling*.

...huh? Wha? You want me to do a thing? Well ok.
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Unless you have a reason not to, of which I am unaware, which is very possible... I submit that you should probably also make sure to vote for the clean, one line, "Rebuttal monologue," too, since that is the most likely to win at this point. Approval voting yay!

Conceptualist said:
Honestly, I'm all for it. But I don't want to social Dandeer, I want to break her.

Does an attempt to verbally assault and break her count as a social roll?
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Trying to use logic, reason, and persuasive rhetoric to convince her that she is a bad person, that she has failed, or otherwise to inflict psychological harm on her would be Communications.

Trying to lie, trick, or manipulate her falsely would probably be Deceit.

"Socialing" doesn't just mean "make people like you." It means "communicate and persuade."

gamer50018 said:
...So, is anyone interested in my quest? I'm sorry if I'm annoying, I just want someone to at least show they have some interest... I have a few self confidence issues.
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I'm interested enough to look into it, I bet a bunch of us are. Put it in your sig when you have it set up or are planning to set it up, PM me in advance if you want me to decide ahead of time if I'm likely to want to play.
 
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