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Dragon Ball: After the End

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So, right now "original plan" is winning. I'd like to campaign for twisting the knife, which currently trails that option by 4.

The knife twist is a Communication based attack (something we're good at) that will hopefully distract and destabilize Dandeer while we make our escape. I'm hoping that that distraction is enough for us to get Yammar out. He's a terrifying ally in what is to come.
Furthermore, I think it's small enough that it won't degrade the "This has already happened" bonus we apparently have with the original plan.

It also lets us, the thread, hurt Dandeer. And right now? I value that.


Now, since I'm absolute shit at campaigning, here are the problems I can see with the plan:
1. This will make Dandeer hate us even more.
2. It might destabilize Dandeer in a bad way, and could have consequences for Jaron/Jaffur. You think she was creepy to them before?
 
from your current relationship with Dandeer and her supreme confidence in herself and her situation at this time

I think a combination would be better. We can undercut her confidence with the revelation of Jaron's suicide and our communication with the gods. Then we convince her to surrender.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
I do realize that, which is why it's so troublesome. Because there are very good reasons for why the players should not know every modifier in advance of rolling the check to which said modifier applies. I'm revealing it now because of the obvious sensitivity on the subject, but it's a troubling precedent and I'm trying to find a good middle ground.
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I have thoughts on this. I my suggested strategy to go forward with would be:
1) Stop invistexting the dice rolls we see. Spoilering the rolls is perfectly fine.
2) Don't condense it down to the last roll.
3) Show us the details of the modifiers that affect our rolls. Hiding DCs or bonuses our opponents get is okay, although giving ballparks would be nice.

I fully get the desire to keep mechanical details hidden so as to prevent min-maxing, rule lawyer behavior. I think I understand the rational behind invisitexting the dice (immersion, flow of the story).
That said, I see two very important benefits to visible rolls:
1) Gives the players a better sense of our character's capabilities. This addresses the good points that @Simon_Jester brings up.
2) Improves trust in the GM. Dice act as a lightning rod for salt (to shove two metaphors in a blender). When things go badly, people what something to blame. In quests where the dice are hidden, the candidates are ourselves or the GM. Given that choice, the majority of salt will be aimed at the GM. Visible dice both draw away a lot of that salt and reduce the amount of salt generated in the first place.

Quest said:
from your current relationship with Dandeer and her supreme confidence in herself and her situation at this time

I think a combination would be better. We can undercut her confidence with the revelation of Jaron's suicide and our communication with the gods. Then we convince her to surrender.
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1) Convincing her to surrender isn't happening.
2) Why would she believe us about the gods? It takes too much time to establish and verify.
 
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thamuzz said:
So, right now "original plan" is winning. I'd like to campaign for twisting the knife, which currently trails that option by 4.

The knife twist is a Communication based attack (something we're good at) that will hopefully distract and destabilize Dandeer while we make our escape. I'm hoping that that distraction is enough for us to get Yammar out. He's a terrifying ally in what is to come.
Furthermore, I think it's small enough that it won't degrade the "This has already happened" bonus we apparently have with the original plan.

It also lets us, the thread, hurt Dandeer. And right now? I value that.


Now, since I'm absolute shit at campaigning, here are the problems I can see with the plan:
1. This will make Dandeer hate us even more.
2. It might destabilize Dandeer in a bad way, and could have consequences for Jaron/Jaffur. You think she was creepy to them before?
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Releasing Yammar is definitely not a small change from the plan we were given. He's a potentially useful ally, but I suspect that freeing him may well do a number on our Sight bonus.
 
And I return. I apologise for my poor behavior earlier in the thread, which were related to severe anger issues I have been struggling with for some time. I had already gained severe misgivings about @PoptartProdigy 's style of QMing, and Message In A Bottle was the last straw. Though it is no excuse, it is also the truth. In any case, as there is currently little interest in my own quest, I'll be joining the discussion again for a while.
chryssalideater said:
-217 in an opposed roll. Please stop.
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The post you replied to was specifically about ways to reduce that malus. Y'know, so we can actually try properly, because no way am I just accepting this bullshit.
 
gamer50018 said:
And I return. I apologise for my poor behavior earlier in the thread, which were related to severe anger issues I have been struggling with for some time. I had already gained severe misgivings about @PoptartProdigy 's style of QMing, and Message In A Bottle was the last straw. Though it is no excuse, it is also the truth. In any case, as there is currently little interest in my own quest, I'll be joining the discussion again for a while.

The post you replied to was specifically about ways to reduce that malus. Y'know, so we can actually try properly, because no way am I just accepting this bullshit.
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1) She fucking hates us. A quick speech isn't going to change that.
2) She's won. Even with Yammar starting the ball rolling on making her doubt that, it isn't enough to overcome the fact that she is currently the most powerful person on the planet. When she's done gloating she's going to seal us into something that can't threaten her.
3) She fucking hates us. A lot.
4) She's kinda bugfuck insane. A quick speech isn't going to make meaningful headway against that.
5) She. Fucking. Hates. Us.

EDIT:
6) The consequences of surrender are death. Yammar, Vegeta and Jaffur all want her head, and they're all crazy in flavors that make talking them down a nonstarter.
 
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gamer50018 said:
And I return. I apologise for my poor behavior earlier in the thread, which were related to severe anger issues I have been struggling with for some time. I had already gained severe misgivings about @PoptartProdigy 's style of QMing, and Message In A Bottle was the last straw. Though it is no excuse, it is also the truth. In any case, as there is currently little interest in my own quest, I'll be joining the discussion again for a while.

The post you replied to was specifically about ways to reduce that malus. Y'know, so we can actually try properly, because no way am I just accepting this bullshit.
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We had an earlier discussion about reducing those maluses. Even accounting for our default bonuses, a good plan, I make bonuses and a cookie, we were only getting around a 2.8% chance of success. You want to role those dice you can go right ahead, but after all this I for one am not feeling lucky.
 
[X] Rebuttal Monologue

[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

Going for the throat by that question to Jaffur, because it's inspiringly vicious and distracting.
 
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Gore17 said:
[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

Going for the throat by that question to Jaffur, because it's inspiringly vicious and distracting.
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....I like you. And this plan.
New
[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.


[X] Rebuttal Monologue


Thoughts: the current winner is Future Kakara's idea. Whilst it is a good plan, I'd rather at least try to get a little more out of this catastrophe first. The runner up is Rebuttal Monologue, which has ten votes split amongst several additions on the original plan.In third place is an idea to simply reveal Jaron's... mental state, before freeing Yammar.
My personal favourite is @Gore17 's alteration to Rebuttal, as I feel it gives us the best chance to convince Dandeer to bend whilst allowing us to initiate the plan if we fail, with better odds of success.​
Adhoc vote count started by gamer50018 on Sep 21, 2018 at 9:43 AM, finished with 68 posts and 29 votes.
  • [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] Talk it out
    - [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
    - [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
    - [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
    - [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
    - [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.​
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
Click to expand...
 
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[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
 
gamer50018 said:
The post you replied to was specifically about ways to reduce that malus. Y'know, so we can actually try properly, because no way am I just accepting this bullshit.
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that malus can't really be reduced by much. I have made peace with the fact we won't get her to surrender, it would be as hard as convincing Frieza to become good before Namek. Right now it's impossible, and it makes sense. After all she has won.

Once we meet the next time things will be different, and if we manage to capture her we can PROVE many things that could make her change her minds. Like, for example, the fact we are in contact with her gods, and they support us.
thamuzz said:
6) The consequences of surrender are death. Yammar, Vegeta and Jaffur all want her head, and they're all crazy in flavors that make talking them down a nonstarter.
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This is the one point i disagree with.

Jaffur would listen to us. He would hate it, but he would listen.

We could convince Yammar by appealing to his pragmatic side, as a sorceress of Dandeer's capabilities is priceless if we can get her to work for us as a prisoner (for example by sealing her powers with a spirit-saiyan-powered spell and keeping her under VERY strict surveilance when we need her to cast a spell for us. In the meantime she could probably do theoretical research and/or teach magic to other sorcerers, in exchange for some limited freedom and the right to see/meet her daughter)

Also, unless Vegeta was under her mind control before he started beating both her and Jaffur and his behaviour is somehow Dandeer's fault HE doesn't get a vote. We might even decide not to unseal him, and even if we do we sure as hell won't have him rule as before.
chryssalideater said:
We had an earlier discussion about reducing those maluses. Even accounting for our default bonuses, a good plan, I make bonuses and a cookie, we were only getting around a 2.8% chance of success. You want to role those dice you can go right ahead, but after all this I for one am not feeling lucky.
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if we could have managed a 10% i would have been ok with trying. Considering how 2.8% it's our BEST CASE scenario...
Gore17 said:
Going for the throat by that question to Jaffur, because it's inspiringly vicious and distracting.
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eh, why not. It will give us some insight into how she thinks and we'll gain time to alert the others if we're lucky.

[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

[] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.

i wouldn't be against this as well, but i want to do MORE!!
gamer50018 said:
... So, What do you all think? Addressing the folks on the bottom bar.
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give us time to post :p
 
[X] Rebuttal Monologue

[X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
-[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[x] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
--[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
 
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Pittauro said:
This is the one point i disagree with.

Jaffur would listen to us. He would hate it, but he would listen.

We could convince Yammar by appealing to his pragmatic side, as a sorceress of Dandeer's capabilities is priceless if we can get her to work for us as a prisoner (for example by sealing her powers with a spirit-saiyan-powered spell and keeping her under VERY strict surveilance when we need her to cast a spell for us. In the meantime she could probably do theoretical research and/or teach magic to other sorcerers, in exchange for some limited freedom and the right to see/meet her daughter)

Also, unless Vegeta was under her mind control before he started beating both her and Jaffur and his behaviour is somehow Dandeer's fault HE doesn't get a vote. We might even decide not to unseal him, and even if we do we sure as hell won't have him rule as before.
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I disagree with your assessment. Jaffur was willing to consider the possibility of executing her over murdering her. When push came to shove, he defaulted to murder.
That's one of the critical moments that screwed us up during the fight.

Pragmatism dictates that the danger Dandeer poses outweighs an potential utility keep her around offers. As evidence, he can point to Dazarel. We spared that monster and it bit us in the ass hard.
 
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Imma level, I think the rebuttal monologue goes on for too long. It's excessive for what we need, and the longer we talk, the higher the chance of losing the sight bonus.

I'd much rather not give her time to suspect that something is wrong.
 
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That's the point of the last part of the vote. If and when Dandeer tries to go all Shut up, Kirk! on us, we abandon the monologue and go for the plan-leaving Dandeer off balance.
 
gamer50018 said:
That's the point of the last part of the vote. If and when Dandeer tries to go all Shut up, Kirk! on us, we abandon the monologue and go for the plan-leaving Dandeer off balance.
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I'm saying I'd prefer it if she never got the chance to try to begin with.

Honestly I'm just trying to avoid too many parts, because that's screwed us before.
 
And hopefully, she won't, but if she has any such spell she'll cast it whether we monologue or not. May as well give it an old fashioned try, and see if Kakara can pull something out off her mind like we've done in the past.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by gamer50018 on Sep 21, 2018 at 10:36 AM, finished with 81 posts and 33 votes.
  • [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] Talk it out
    - [X] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
    - [X] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
    - [X] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
    - [X] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
    - [X] Repeat: Kakara is sorry that it had to end like this. Segue into The Plan, letting Yammar know how to break the chains as best she can.
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.​
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
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