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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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EasyCo said:
All those superfluous words could be spent in much better ways, such as really advancing the plot
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"He win". Plot is advanced tremendously, right to finishing line. Where the point in advancing plot by itself?

EasyCo said:
As it stands most interludes are 90% characters talking about things they and the readers already know.
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All fanfics more or less talking about things the readers already know.
Interludes prowide different points of view, and for me at least, that's pretty entertaining to see how different people see the things. You may not see it that way, that's your right to have tastes. But that's it - different tastes. You talking like your point of view is the right one, and by following it the story will be better. No. Your point of view is just yours, and following it will only make the story different. You will like it more, of course. But there's a bunch of people who enjoed the story as is, and at least part of them will like it less if the tone and pace would change.
Koraan said:
Artificial said:
Again, great technical quality, you're a fairly good writer. You desperately need an editor, a real editor, not a beta. I don't even care that it's *only* supposed to be fanfiction. You've got the skills to hold yourself to a higher standard.
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Whose standards? Yours? Why should he?
I am silent when people complain that this was an interlude, because everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. But your post feels kinda... Demanding? "I have a belief and everyone should strive to match it".
Why author must follow your point of view? I, for one, enjoed interlude as it expanded the story's world, and shown some interesting interactions and future plothooks. That was fun to read, and it didn't feel long.
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EasyCo said:
As for the people who go on about the amount of times the argument has been brought up, I wouldn't even know. The thread is so full of almost spam like posts that you can't be expected to go through over 600 pages just to find arguments. It's sad. I utterly love this story and feel like Roustabout is a phenomenal writer who is constantly improving, but I feel almost anxious about posting the slightest hint of criticism because the fans on here seem to turn indescribably toxic at the smallest hint of it.
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On the one hand, I get your point and acknowledge it. On the other - you expect author to react to your post. To read all the comments in the thread, and answer people. That doesn't seem fair to me, to demand from others what you are lazy to do yourself.
Especially since your argument reappearing constantly, and reading last couple of pages enough to see it at least twice.

And for me, at least, your post looks not less toxic than ones from people annoyed to no end by constantly repeating argument.
 
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EasyCo said:
Snip
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Eh, realistically, the point system isn't the best, sure, however, it does work. And while it could be better, there'd be no point in LordR upending the methodology that he has been using to try and make a new, different and equally as effective version.

Words are easy to track and there aren't many other metrics that are as convenient. And honestly, Lord has said he's not going to change it, so I think it would be best to just not continue to be annoyed about it.
 
Honestly, slightly unrelated to alot of the previous posts. But I'm really hoping for a simurgh interlude.

Because 1 I'm still partially convinced that everything with flacette/March was a simurgh plot to gather more information about the person who has constantly been shifting around in her plans and regularly disappears from where she can see... and is now immune to mind reading.

Considering all the shenanigans that is the simurgh I'm really looking forward to a good quality written one who does her service. And I think this story will write her much better then most ff writers just saying, "lol, I conveniently am now immune and shes not a threat anymore"

Edit: lookin at you most CYOA stories
 
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Koraan said:
"He win". Plot is advanced tremendously, right to finishing line. Where the point in advancing plot by itself?
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All I did was share some feedback and some ideas about fixing potential issues. Please don't strawman my post.

Koraan said:
And for me, at least, your post looks not less toxic than ones from people annoyed to no end by constantly repeating argument.
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Yeah, this right here is more or less exactly what I was talking about. :(
 
Yo, @EasyCo, I understand your points, and most of us agree, but as others have stated, Lord isn't going to change his system. I do understand why it frustrates you, though; Things can be wordy, but the only area I feel the quality decreases due to that are the fight scenes, and those don't come up that often. Reading can be a bit of a slog, but the excitement often supersedes that. Of course, not all people are me, so you're free to find it a complete slog.

Also, to be clear, Interludes give points if Joe is involved, which is why the Dragon Interlude and Weld Interlude gave points.

Personally, if I were to write a story, I'd probably give the MC like 3-5 rolls at the start of each chapter, but I guess that's just me. Would allow for lower CP/Word systems without doing a roll with every other paragraph, or heck outright removing the CP system, while still having a quicker pace = quicker perk gain.
 
The Shallow said:
Yo, @EasyCo, I understand your points, and most of us agree, but as others have stated, Lord isn't going to change his system. I do understand why it frustrates you, though; Things can be wordy, but the only area I feel the quality decreases due to that are the fight scenes, and those don't come up that often. Reading can be a bit of a slog, but the excitement often supersedes that. Of course, not all people are me, so you're free to find it a complete slog.

Also, to be clear, Interludes give points if Joe is involved, which is why the Dragon Interlude and Weld Interlude gave points.

Personally, if I were to write a story, I'd probably give the MC like 3-5 rolls at the start of each chapter, but I guess that's just me. Would allow for lower CP/Word systems without doing a roll with every other paragraph, or heck outright removing the CP system, while still having a quicker pace = quicker perk gain.
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That's fair, and I appreciate you and the others informing me about the interlude system. I hadn't realized I was wrong about how that worked; it certainly makes the long interludes make more sense in that case! Also I realize that he wouldn't be likely to change or drop the system, which is why my proposed solution wasn't to change the system or have less word count, but instead shift where the words are used so that the fluff bloat isn't as striking without hurting the pace or having shorter chapters.

Ooh that roll idea would be an amazing system. I've got to admit I love stories that include elements of RNG. Some of my favorites are the ones like the Magic the Gathering crossover where dice rolls and the like were used to determine card draws and how long the effects would last. I feel like that sort of system would definitely be useful for Celestial Forge, since the writers could work within those limits without having to force themselves to be constrained by an arbitrary word limit.
 
I have been reading some thrash Worm fics to sate my hunger for this one, but I have just read one where the Simurg is turned into a Waifu and I can't stop thinking about it for some reason. Maybe I have a think for angel girls?

Anyways, I was going to ask if someone knows what the Simurg's deal is in canon? I remember something about her manipulating events to kill Zion or something similar in order to free herself, but I don't remember if that's Canon or Fanon.

I just had the crazy idea that if Joe found out that the Simurg herself was mastered to commit atrocities wouldn't it be in character for him to try to help her? It would turn into a pretty interesting plot in wich Joe hacks her shard connection or whatever dimensional bullshit she has and learns she more or less follows instructions from freaking Eidolon himself. He would probably assume the idiot is controlling the Endbringers to make himself look good or something and try to kill him, making him a villain to the eyes of the world.

All that from rotting my brain in Simurg Waifu thrash fics....
What do you think about it SV?
 
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Koraan said:
Interludes prowide different points of view, and for me at least, that's pretty entertaining to see how different people see the things.
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I agree. I love the interludes, I enjoy seeing the perspective of other characters. And while sometimes the story does feel like it's going slowly, I like that as it shows a lot of character development.
 
SearchEngine said:
I have been reading some thrash Worm fics to sate my hunger for this one, but I have just read one where the Simurg is turned into a Waifu and I can't stop thinking about it for some reason. Maybe I have a think for angel girls?

Anyways, I was going to ask if someone knows what the Simurg's deal is in canon? I remember something about her manipulating events to kill Zion or something similar in order to free herself, but I don't remember if that's Canon or Fanon.

I just had the crazy idea that if Joe found out that the Simurg herself was mastered to commit atrocities wouldn't it be in character for him to try to help her? It would turn into a pretty interesting plot in wich Joe hacks her shard connection or whatever dimensional bullshit she has and learns she more or less follows instructions from freaking Eidolon himself. He would probably assume the idiot is controlling the Endbringers to make himself look good or something and try to kill him, making him a villain to the eyes of the world.

All that from rotting my brain in Simurg Waifu thrash fics....
What do you think about it SV?
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Is the fic your talking about the I Greg fic?
 
EasyCo said:
That's fair, and I appreciate you and the others informing me about the interlude system. I hadn't realized I was wrong about how that worked; it certainly makes the long interludes make more sense in that case! Also I realize that he wouldn't be likely to change or drop the system, which is why my proposed solution wasn't to change the system or have less word count, but instead shift where the words are used so that the fluff bloat isn't as striking without hurting the pace or having shorter chapters.

Ooh that roll idea would be an amazing system. I've got to admit I love stories that include elements of RNG. Some of my favorites are the ones like the Magic the Gathering crossover where dice rolls and the like were used to determine card draws and how long the effects would last. I feel like that sort of system would definitely be useful for Celestial Forge, since the writers could work within those limits without having to force themselves to be constrained by an arbitrary word limit.
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Yeah, like you said, I'm not talking about Lord changing his point system or adding new systems in place. My post was about how the interludes and even the main chapters themselves are wordy to the point of boredom. I get that people like the world building from huge, wordy chapters, but I just felt like a lot of what Lord writes could end up condensed to give a more streamlined chapter. Many of the scenes of these past interludes just tell the same things from different perspectives, and as interesting as some of these POV's have been, at this point I'm just getting tired. As it is, the best comparison I could give is to how movie scripts are before editors get to them. There's a reason that so much is cut from scripts, it's to make the story more digestible. Look how much was cut from Snyder's JL and even still, there's scenes that didn't make the 4+ hour cut.
 
SearchEngine said:
I have been reading some thrash Worm fics to sate my hunger for this one, but I have just read one where the Simurg is turned into a Waifu and I can't stop thinking about it for some reason. Maybe I have a think for angel girls?

Anyways, I was going to ask if someone knows what the Simurg's deal is in canon? I remember something about her manipulating events to kill Zion or something similar in order to free herself, but I don't remember if that's Canon or Fanon.

I just had the crazy idea that if Joe found out that the Simurg herself was mastered to commit atrocities wouldn't it be in character for him to try to help her? It would turn into a pretty interesting plot in wich Joe hacks her shard connection or whatever dimensional bullshit she has and learns she more or less follows instructions from freaking Eidolon himself. He would probably assume the idiot is controlling the Endbringers to make himself look good or something and try to kill him, making him a villain to the eyes of the world.

All that from rotting my brain in Simurg Waifu thrash fics....
What do you think about it SV?
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Simurgh isn't an innocent victim forced against her will to be an endbringer. The Simurgh is a conflict engine. An artificial being designed and constructed by the entities to serve their purpose. It was not constructed with the capability for compassion or lust. If Joe did turn Simurgh to the side of good it would be more like reprogramming a hostile A.I than rescuing a master victim.
 
I feel as though Joe at this point has reached event horizon of can it be thought of then yes he can make it with a little time and effort, can Joe build a weapon that can kill Scion I would not be surprised when the answer is yes.That is not important though the question is could Joe build it without having to take over Brockton Bay to get anything done.

The biggest problem Joe has is not resources or power, it's that in two weeks someguy nobody knows, came out of nowhere and is now strong enough to beat the everlivng shit out of Lung the big guy EVERYBODY knows.

Apeiron despite the things they seen is an unknow he a faceless monster of a tinkerer in two weeks he has gone from who to this guy is setting off String Theory vibes. Joe's main problem is the PRT's paranoia, the public's fears, and his own social problems.

Despite how big this story is it's only been two weeks in story time which is somewhat of a sore spot in that it feels like this should be farther along timewise.

Edit: timeline fix it had been two weeks since story start.
 
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SpyroFan said:
Despite how big this story is it's only been a week in story time which is somewhat of a sore spot in that it feels like this should be farther along timewise.
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2 weeks, but ya you are right. The is an unknown. And while some people are glad he is there (specially case 53s in the know) to most people he is just a super strong person with no apparent goals and nothing tiring him down. It's scary.

I honestly think that most major groups would feel more reassured if Joe claimed territory, since they would have something to leverage against him or they would be able to tell his motives. Or at the very least they would know something about him.

Being an enigma at his level of power gets everyone paranoid. And saying things like "3 day old technology" makes it even more paranoia inducing. Just knowing his specialty would calm things down a bit (though he isn't a conventional tinker so no dice on that front),

Also once Aisha/Lethe is known to be associated with him, someone who can murder you without you remembering, it will make the paranoia even worst.
 
SpyroFan said:
Apeiron despite the things they seen is an unknow he a faceless monster of a tinkerer in two weeks he has gone from who to this guy is setting off String Theory vibes. Joe's main problem is the PRT's paranoia, the public's fears, and his own social problems.

Despite how big this story is it's only been two weeks in story time which is somewhat of a sore spot in that it feels like this should be farther along timewise.

Edit: timeline fix it had been two weeks since story start.
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The wards parroted this nonsense in story too, I can almost see it... If the PRT hadn't intentionally created a situation where joe couldn't meaningfully communicate, let alone interact with the cape community.

Yeah he's an unknown, but that is intentional on the PRT's part. He was used to distract from their failures.
 
Vodkasheep said:
The wards parroted this nonsense in story too, I can almost see it... If the PRT hadn't intentionally created a situation where joe couldn't meaningfully communicate, let alone interact with the cape community.

Yeah he's an unknown, but that is intentional on the PRT's part. He was used to distract from their failures.
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Which is why his greatest problem is not the ability to kick people's teeth in, it's the PRT's paranoia, the PRT are to used to the worstcase scenario being often the case, this branch in particular they are constantly surrounded by enemies and when an enemy is taken down it usually just to replace them.

To try and explain it, the man who sleeps with a knife is a fool all nights except one, but is particularly foolish when he strikes his friend trying to wake him up.

Their so use to needing that paranoia that when a possible ally shows up they swing their knife, because everytime they didn't they got their teeth kicked in.

Joe made mistakes but the PRT's paranoia exasperated those mistakes into a big problem that's no longer solvable by talking. It gonna take a lot of Idk something to get things to calm down March being a pain in the ass certainly didn't help if things are allowed to cool maybe things can start to move forward.
 
SpyroFan said:
Especially since her weaknesses camera's and actually hurting the target are no selled by Joe's tech, and weapons yeah ultimate assassin what.
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I think that her power now works on cameras even without Joe's tech thanks to Ren. And the armour definitely helps.

I keep thinking that the best solution to the Dragon situation is sending Aisha in to her lab or base and letting Joe connect to her the computers there through her armour.

SpyroFan said:
Joe made mistakes but the PRT's paranoia exasperated those mistakes into a big problem that's no longer solvable by talking. It gonna take a lot of Idk something to get things to calm down March being a pain in the ass certainly didn't help if things are allowed to cool maybe things can start to move forward.
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I think the involvement of Uppercrest could help if Piggot lets him help. And the connection with Weld is a good step forward.

If Coil is revealed to be a PRT agent any time to Joe it would show him that Coil was the reason his power warned him about the local PRT branch. So Piggot and everyone can just blame Coil for his thinker power pointing out that the local PRT branch is bad and start fresh-ish. Everyone loves a good scapegoat.
 
SpyroFan said:
Which is why his greatest problem is not the ability to kick people's teeth in, it's the PRT's paranoia, the PRT are to used to the worstcase scenario being often the case, this branch in particular they are constantly surrounded by enemies and when an enemy is taken down it usually just to replace them.
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Didn't he debut by providing highly lethal weaponry to a gang of thieves? The PRT being suspect of his motives is only appropriate. As far as they know he is just using good PR to delay a major response against him untill he has enough tech to conquer the US.
 
SpyroFan said:
Which is why his greatest problem is not the ability to kick people's teeth in, it's the PRT's paranoia, the PRT are to used to the worstcase scenario being often the case, this branch in particular they are constantly surrounded by enemies and when an enemy is taken down it usually just to replace them.

To try and explain it, the man who sleeps with a knife is a fool all nights except one, but is particularly foolish when he strikes his friend trying to wake him up.

Their so use to needing that paranoia that when a possible ally shows up they swing their knife, because everytime they didn't they got their teeth kicked in.

Joe made mistakes but the PRT's paranoia exasperated those mistakes into a big problem that's no longer solvable by talking. It gonna take a lot of Idk something to get things to calm down March being a pain in the ass certainly didn't help if things are allowed to cool maybe things can start to move forward.
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I mean we know for a fact already the PRT aren't acting in good faith, they personally have a vested interest in Aperion being actually the Simurgh. It's not paranoia, it's a combination of spin and malicious compliance with the desperate hope that people will believe that the last few weeks is all the Simurgh's Aperion's fault literally sweating bullets because if Aperion says fuck it and shows the public how much he has done to assist them their soooo fucked. That's before we get into them low key stealing credit for rescuing weld and putting out the fire.

MrCogmor said:
Didn't he debut by providing highly lethal weaponry to a gang of thieves? The PRT being suspect of his motives is only appropriate. As far as they know he is just using good PR to delay a major response against him untill he has enough tech to conquer the US.
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It was a knife my dude, a fancy knife given to a group that hadn't targeted non-criminals yet with a 'weapon' that was specifically useless against shielders. That is before you get into how they were pretending at the time Aperion was Khepri because that was the only way the tinker could be assigned blame for the crime, by being actually there.

The reasoning 'they delayed because he might take over the world' is also pretty silly considering they didn't know his power level at the time. This is less like using the story to find evidence to support your argument and more making up a story to support your argument.
 
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MrCogmor said:
Didn't he debut by providing highly lethal weaponry to a gang of thieves? The PRT being suspect of his motives is only appropriate. As far as they know he is just using good PR to delay a major response against him untill he has enough tech to conquer the US.
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It been a while so it not exactly fresh, but yeah that didn't help, it also the fact that the PRT never gave him a chance to explain as if he's the only parahuman who made a mistake and tried to fix it. I mean Assault was fricken Madhat, never really wanted to be a hero was infamous for breaking out villians heading to the cage. Yet here he is hero and married. Apeiron has made it clear he's the type that could shake the world like Nilbog, and Machine Army. If you could have him as an ally wouldn't it be worth a chance. That and you can't put aside the Path to Victory with the most conflict caused messing with stuff.

I just realized that despite Joe's precog paranoia we have not really seen hide or hair of the Trio or Hat Lady.

Vodkasheep said:
I mean we know for a fact already the PRT aren't acting in good faith, they personally have a vested interest in Aperion being actually the Simurgh. It's not paranoia, it's a combination of spin and malicious compliance with the desperate hope that people will believe that the last few weeks is all the Simurgh's Aperion's fault literally sweating bullets because if Aperion says fuck it and shows the public how much he has done to assist them their soooo fucked. That's before we get into them low key stealing credit for rescuing weld and putting out the fire.


It was a knife my dude, a fancy knife given to a group that hadn't targeted non-criminals yet with a 'weapon' that was specifically useless against shielders. That is before you get into how they were pretending at the time Aperion was Khepri because that was the only way the tinker could be assigned blame for the crime, by being actually there.
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I mean yes some of the incompetence is malice but don't make the mistake of thinking incompetence as malice

Coil is being a dick, situation was getting out of hand because March, but where does the Smurf come in like she hasn't really done anything then look at the Bay and going what the fuck is going on over there. I don't remember her being important yet

Edit: wait they thought Taylor was a tinker at first because she was a new member and the undersiders suddenly had tinker tech, they weren't pretending they literally thought that at the time.

And the knife was actually just a knife a good knife but not specifically for anything except for Joe to be able to find them and keep them safe.
 
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MrCogmor said:
Didn't he debut by providing highly lethal weaponry to a gang of thieves? The PRT being suspect of his motives is only appropriate. As far as they know he is just using good PR to delay a major response against him untill he has enough tech to conquer the US.
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His actual debut was taking on Oni Lee, and tanking a multi-explosives attack, but only the Undersiders and Oni Lee himself seem to have direct knowledge of it.
His first, known, debut was healing Panacea, and tanking a hit from Glory Girl, that by her own thoughts should have put him through a wall. In his conversation, he explains that making the knives was a single business deal, which falls into a legal grey area at worst.
Also, I feel it's worth bringing up, that at that precise moment, Vicky's only knowledge of the situation was that he was a Tinker, and he'd made the Undersiders new knives. He was standing far enough away from Amy that he tossed something to her rather than hand it over, so it wasn't like he was crowding her sister's personal space either. There was a very real chance she could have put her hand through his chest, and his last words would have been "They stole them from my workshop..."
 
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