Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

How about the potential fight with Lung, Joe is pretty much invincible to what Lung can do to him, Lee is going to be a much greater threat to him with All or Nothing bombs.
Lung's role would most likely be very different. If there's one thing that he is strong at, it's the fact that he is very hard to take down, when he has ramped long enough. This applies to Apeiron too, which is why Joe still considers retreat a valid strategy against a ramped-up Lung, and here's the reason why:

Collateral damage. People usually forget this part of the equation, as often they imagine confrontations in a vacuum.

Remember, Lung had managed to last long enough to Leviathan that the Endbringer created enough water to sink Kyushu. By Word of Wildbow, if Lung actually retreated and de-escalated, that kind of damage would have never happened. Joe works under the same logic, except this time he's the Endbringer to Lung's Dragon.

True, literally nothing Lung does will damage him. True, Lee would most likely be the real threat to his safety, and that's probably the cornerstone of March's original plan against Apeiron. But just the fact that Apeiron is on the field will make Lung ramp up, and Lung has a very convenient way of forcing Apeiron to go against him - Lung has no qualms in wrecking Brockton Bay, and Joe wants to protect it.

And so, Apeiron will be forced to be distracted by a rage dragon. And so, Oni Lee will strike while his attention is taken. One well placed time bubble and just like that, Apeiron is eliminated. This is the most likely strategy that will be used against Joe, but it has its weakness - it relies on Lung having ramped up enough to not be wiped out like during the Aisha rescue. If Joe arrives early enough for Lung to not be completely ramped up, then it's a race against time to take him down as quickly as possible while also dealing with Oni Lee.

TLDR: Lung will be the full-HP taunter tank to Oni Lee's assassin build.
 
Last edited:
Pretty sure the weapons and equipment he has built at this point that are capable of one-shotting Lung is more likely to kill him than it is to subdue him. Which is a no go in Joe's mind
He already said he will kill Bakuda and March so he might go for the kill if he fights Lung and Oni Lee. Having Joe go all out against Lung and Oni Lee would look bad to the PRT, but just killing them and being done with it would make him even more popular to the entire city. They both deserve a kill order for the direct deaths they caused, let alone holding an entire city hostage, shutting down hospitals all across east coast, slavery, rape, drug smuggling, and probably every other crime known to man. He already prepared himself to end this, he just needs to follow through.
 
- Lung has no qualms in wrecking Brockton Bay, and Joe wants to protect it.
I agree with almost every point you have made except for lung having no qualms about wrecking the bay as how it currently looks is that the fight will take place in ABB territory, the area where Lung does not want to go full wrecking lizard.

March probably planned for the fight to be near the edge of his territory or futher away and the scramble due to Joe's increased hacking speed and rejecting their hostage demands has lead to a collapse of her plan.
 
I agree with almost every point you have made except for lung having no qualms about wrecking the bay as how it currently looks is that the fight will take place in ABB territory, the area where Lung does not want to go full wrecking lizard.

March probably planned for the fight to be near the edge of his territory or futher away and the scramble due to Joe's increased hacking speed and rejecting their hostage demands has lead to a collapse of her plan.
Remember, as of now, the ABB has no territory. They have no ties, no roots, not after Joe burned all of their non-liquid assets. As Lung stated in his addendum, this is his final blaze in Brockton Bay before he is moving his gang to greener pastures.

At this point, it's just scorched earth tactics. If he's leaving the land, might as well ruin it for everyone else first for forcing him to move.
 
Last edited:
And so, Apeiron will be forced to be distracted by a rage dragon. And so, Oni Lee will strike while his attention is taken. One well placed time bubble and just like that, Apeiron is eliminated. This is the most likely strategy that will be used against Joe, but it has its weakness - it relies on Lung having ramped up enough to not be wiped out like during the Aisha rescue.

It have more weakness than that.
  • It require Apeiron to not being able to oneshot even a ramped Lung (non-letally, or letally if Apeiron is pissed enough, which he might be). Apeiron have the whole W40K tech base behind him, so I wouldn't bet on that one.
  • It require Oni Lee to be faster than Apeiron (he can walk on rockets when under Tetra's effect after all).
  • It require Oni Lee to be faster than Apeiron's drone point defence (or Apeiron being unwilling to kill a cape).
  • It assume Apeiron won't pull a bullshit ability from his ass the Celestial Forge.
Honestly it's a crap shot of a plan. To be fair, most of those are things March can't see coming, and from her latest info, her plan should work.
 
Last edited:
Honestly it's a crap shot of a plan. To be fair, most of those are things March can't see coming, and from her latest info, her plan should work.
Exactly, it's all based off of Joe's previous capabilities. The fact that he's arriving early is telling enough, because the problem of having to reveal even stronger firepower to take down a ramped-up Lung might even be a non-issue when he arrives, all by sheer virtue of Lung not having ramped up enough to withstand the opening salvo.
 
So, if Piggot steps down, who would replace her?. Both Calvert and Tagg would be hilarious choices, especially if they are one after the other.
 
Personally I hope that Apeiron doesn't kill anyone. Not for thou shall not kill but for how PRT might frame it. I hope that if he can capture and/or defeat them he installs GPS inside of them. March would be especially vulnable to such tactic.
 
So, if Piggot steps down, who would replace her?. Both Calvert and Tagg would be hilarious choices, especially if they are one after the other.
I'll find it very funny if Coil decides that the risk of his civilian ID being found out by Apeiron with his Thinker power is not worth the position, and so he pushes Tagg to replace Piggot as at least Tagg is easily manipulated. But then Tagg being Tagg...

Brockton Bay: *on fire*
PRT: Okay, so Apeiron rampaged and now our new Director is dead and we can't really blame him because Tagg sucked. Hopefully he won't have any problems for the successor. Who's up for it?
Calvert: Noooope, not it, I'm heading to Vegas!
 
I read a very nice piece of text from a comment on another sector of this forum.
"To you, everything is parahuman Ms Costa - Brown. To a hammer everything is a nail. I am sure if Beethoven wrote his music today, you would likely be claiming jurisdiction over it, calling him a 'master'. I am sorry to disappoint you, but we at DARPA do science. Replicable, provable, peer reviewed even. None of that parahuman magic bullshit that is your jurisdiction. Good day!"

If Joe could subtle point out that something breathtaking beautiful doesn't need to be a master effect. It could very well gain a strong traction on PHO and social media and thus infuencing PRT. With him procceding to upload many amazing works.
I.e if an anonymous PHO account could do a short story about how Da Vinci did a masterpiece of work of art then would the local PRT arrest him for daring to master his audience.
Still in this case its a power thing but... Yeah. Could also backfire if PRT or other groups gangup on him why he needs to "explain" himself.

So, if Piggot steps down, who would replace her?. Both Calvert and Tagg would be hilarious choices, especially if they are one after the other.
I think Calvert wouldn't let Tagg take over before him. I think that the national wide PRT would let a local take over before transferring someone else. On the other hand the national wide PRT might have to let an outsider to PRT EUNE because of how all circus of red tape looks to the other departments.
 
The below is spoilered for length, and for the thread's desire to move on.
Personally, on the whole PRT/Joe debacle, I feel like people are both ignoring some context and taking things a little... personally.

For the latter, Joe is very much a flawed character. Not a bad one, nor is his decision making totally illogical or unsound, but there have been a number of social faceplants that have put him in his current position, and kept him from coming out. The first and most obvious of course is almost everything about how he handled Amy (technically first was giving Undersider's lethal gear, but I give him a freebie since he was high on his power and Shard's bias). Then left his rescue victims after the first battle instead of staying to make a statement and/or resolve his reputation with the PRT while he had (significant) social momentum on his side. Finally, there's all of the numerous chances he had to make use of social media to establish his own narrative (and then didn't). Even the talk with Armstrong I'd put as neutral leaning towards negative. He made a good connection with a Ward and affirmed his Master status (that it didn't exist)...but he also focused on the local PRT's blame and how he could not work with them. He didn't lay down exclusive blame mind, but he still laid it. And while that might be fine for the future when the PRT is trying to court the obvious powerhouse, at this moment he is telling the local group that they are wrong and incorrect. True or not, never try to persuade people on the basis of their own errors, and doubly never do it for organizations whose function depends on their reputation. Any chance at mending things or at least being refocused onto the ABB was being shot in the foot.

Now, let's look at the PRT (local, national being mostly busy with their own problems). What are their principal mistakes that aren't a result of enemy action (e.g spies leaking Intel)? I think generally the consensus is how they have deemed the MC a master with minimal evidence, and how they have mis-prioritized as a result of that 'evidence' and their own agenda in the status quo. To start with the focus on Apeiron, I don't think they (as in the local group carrying out directives) can really be blamed for target the MC under suspicions as a Master/Thinker, though they could be held accountable for negligence in not giving the suspicious warning about the ABB due diligence and checking it anyway before all this began. M/S protocols were triggered by a correllary in Amy's debrief (corallation =\= causation, but with M/S it's too risky I guess), and from that moment on the issue was stuck. Because of protocol. Because M/S infiltration is such a threat, and so scary, that even one potentially false positive is enough for a practical lockdown, much less detaining a suspected victim for a few days to be checked and acting to prevent the suspected Master from affecting more (and thus making the investigation more complicated). In this case? Following protocol crippled the local PRT. But it wasn't them that made it, nor were they responsible for contributing complications (Brandish throwing a hissy-fit, a lazy tech lying). In a non-crisis situation, Amy would have been evaluated, cleared, and Apeiron would have been cleared in a matter of days, up to a week or so at most (which is quite reasonable for a government organization, especially one trying to check for literal mind-control).

Next, we have Thinker suspicions. This I'm somewhat mixed about. That they suspected Thinker puppeteering was only reasonable and obvious between the self-admitted Thinker power, the association with Tattletale, March's timing, and Apeiron's own aesthetic/perception perks influencing his impact. Even then, it didn't take them long to grow suspicious of whether or not Apeiron was actually a cause and not just another target of city-wide tampering (and honestly it's probably both). That they didn't and still haven't cleared Apeiron of suspicion isn't an issue. That they've allowed it to help set them on a path of indecisiveness is. The Thinker conundrum of whether or not acting is good or already accounted for by the enemy is nothing new, and the PRT really should be used to having to just pick something and go with it. There are times when holding ground and aquiring more information is the right call yes, but tolerating the creation of a conscripted gang is not one of those, even if only for the precedent it would create and not the safety of the hostages and city.

Finally, we have the PRT and Piggot's 'obsession' with the status quo. There are many flaws and biases to both, but with meta-knowledge we should all know that this is not one of them. The primary reason the PRT works as a National Agency full-stop is because they have a (practical) monopoly of force in the form of the Triumvirate. If ever things get too bad or the line is crossed, everyone knows one of the Big 3 will drop by to crack heads. And they do. Except for Brockton. Brockton where there are more Villains then Heroes, where PRT reinforcement is invisibly limited, and where numerous events in the past have shown a power vacuum is always followed by bloody strife and the rise of more (possibly worse) Villains. What exactly is the the PRT supposed to do? They can't 'win', they aren't allowed to. Trying just means they either fail and are damaged in terms of reputation and personnel, or they succeed and are still winded while opening up the populace to violent domination from new Villain groups. The best they can hope for, as they are, is to be a deterrent that keeps the Villains from going too far and crossing the line that makes their continued existence more damaging then the power-struggle their replacement would cause. Maybe ingenious leadership and risky plays could lead to victory anyway. Maybe relaxing their restrictions (like sniping murderous Parahumans or deploying the military) could force the Villains to play nicer despite their absolute numbers advantage. But the former breaks protocol meant to protect citizens, and the latter sets precedents the rest of the PRT manifestly will not allow (because of the escalation and the damage to the secret agenda of maximizing Parahuman numbers).

Now, finally, we get to the biggest issue, and the reason that neither Joe nor the PRT should really ultra-targeted for their screwups. It's been 11 days since Joe first went out, and only 7 since the confrontation with Panancea. 1 week. And in that time, half the city has blown up while Joe's abilities have grown many orders of magnitude. There has not been time for either party to get a grip with the situation. To really plan and think things through. No time for Joe to try and climb out of the hole that is depression (which takes years optimistically), adjust to profound mental changes, or think about and try to overcome his introversion. No time for Piggot and the PRT to process or fix anything before something else is blowing up. Just, no time.

Now, as for Lung. This is a fight that can really only be a push-over or a major obstacle. Lung can escalate to match and overcome anything Joe currently has deployed (and possibly anything built), but that only works if you play by his rules. Unfortunately, it's hard to take Lung down if you don't play by his rules (unless you know the secrets of course, that being a non-violent early take-down, or stalling the escalation by retreating and then blitzing Lung while he's stalled and shrinking). And Joe, unless he recognizes Lung with his tech (which would be neat), knows neither of these things. Of course, his protective gear is such that it would take quite a bit of escalation for Lung to pose a threat, and in the meantime Joe's superior speed gives him free-rein to deal with any others and set up counter measures. There's also the possibility that Lung just isn't taken alive. He a mass-murderer, human-traffiker, and arguably abettor of serial rape via the trafficking. He doesn't even fight in EB battles, the primary reason Villains enjoy the official and unofficial protections they do. Joe the engineering student would never want to kill of course, and Joe the aspiring tinker would avoid such wherever possible. But Joe the soldier of humanity shoots to kill, and Joe the Cybertronian is of a race so caught up in ideology they literally killed their home-planet as a side affect fighting for it. This wouldn't even be the first time he's used lethal force with the intent to kill (see the second fight with U&L and Joe aiming to 'dome them before forcefields and digitization stopped him). True he was more emotionally wound up and a great deal weaker where non-lethal was risky...but now his target is much more despicable, and the pressure to halt the ABB assault is not inconsiderable.

As for afterward? While there is no kill-order on Lung, that's not because he hasn't committed much more damage then 'three strikes' like the average gang-banger. Lung being killed would never get the PRT's approval without a kill-order, but on it's own it's unlikely they would try to pursue his killer or put any more then the bare minimum in obtaining 'justice' for his death. What impact that would have given Apeiron's pre-existing relationship with the PRT and how it proceeds is harder to quantify, but it's one I'm leaning towards 'negatively'. Especially with how it would become clear sooner or later that Apeiron killing Lung was a choice on his part, not a necessity to survive or protect others.
 
Last edited:
I think Calvert wouldn't let Tagg take over before him.
More seriously, I doubt he'd take it either, not in these circumstances. Coil is a bastard, but he didn't last long without being a paranood bastard. And with his only method against Joe being "Direct him to other problems and hope that his attention doesn't turn my way", being in such a prominent position with Apeiron still in play is too much risk, too little control for his preferences.
 
The below is spoilered for length, and for the thread's desire to move on.
Sorry. Seems like I had missed where most of PRT-Joe debate has been posted. So I wouldn't have needed to open up an old topic. Anyway, nice essay!
...being in such a prominent position with Apeiron still in play is too much risk, too little control for his preferences.
So his plan would be to delay Piggot's fall and secure himself as her successor. And then when Coil thinks Apeiron has finally burned out or gotten arrested he can sweep in with victory at hands. Much like in canon with Undersiders and Travelers.

What do you guys think he's been planning between his last pov and now when Apeiron has been going on a one man army against ABB? Maybe something like playing Apeiron and PRT against each other and focusing against March. I guess he could also be spooked against March as she fared well against his mercenaries.
 
Last edited:
I think that This will be very useful for the author and the readers.
Edit:If it wasn't alredy being used.
 
Especially with how it would become clear sooner or later that Apeiron killing Lung was a choice on his part, not a necessity to survive or protect others.

I'd argue that killing Lung ALWAYS qualify as a "necessity to protect others". Even putting aside his massive crimes, the guy do more collateral damage than Glory Girl. I doubt the public would turn against Apeiron if he just decide to nuke Lung and Oni Lee with a Giant Laser Beam (as long as he avoid civilian causalities).

(Obviously, the PRT and the other villains would probably be a lot less happy with him because that would demonstrate both lethal long range firepower and willingness to use it)

What do you guys think he's been planning between his last pov and now when Apeiron has been going on a one man army against ABB? Maybe something like playing Apeiron and PRT against each other and focusing against March. I guess he could also be spooked against March as she fared well against his mercenaries.

1) Hope the Undersiders can act as a leash.
2) In case the first plan doesn't work, buy or steal tinkertech that can hit him. Ideally Bakuda's time bomb.

However, I don't think Apeiron is Coil priority at that point. March disrupt Dinah predictions, and that is something Coil cannot allow.
 
Last edited:
I'd argue that killing Lung ALWAYS qualify as a "necessity to protect others". Even putting aside his massive crimes, the guy do more collateral damage than Glory Girl. I doubt the public would turn against Apeiron if he just decide to nuke Lung and Oni Lee with a Giant Laser Beam (as long as he avoid civilian causalities).

(Obviously, the PRT and the other villains would probably be a lot less happy with him because that would demonstrate both lethal long range firepower and willingness to use it
In the long term, I agree. Lung has shown that he is a violent, ruthless individual unwilling to change his MO. Even if he can be dominated enough to recognize a superior force, he'll just leave and begin again elsewhere. Against Scion he's far too squishy and conventional to be more then a temporary distraction, and against the EB's he only matters if they hold back (which is true for most Parahumans tbf) and he actually fights...which he doesn't. There really isn't a good reason to keep him alive if he can't be rehabilitated or used.

But in the context of this fight? Apeiron has the capacity to take him down alive (if he's not egregiously stupid), or to kill him. And Lung does not have the ability to meaningfully harm Apeiron in return, much less keep up with his high speed movements until he has undergone an extreme amount of escalation. Unless there are hostages present and being threatened by Lung? There is no 'heroic' or 'neutral' way to kill him without a Kill Order. Killing to protect yourself or others. Killing him because you want to (regardless of the why) is a villain action. And while no one will mourn Lung in particular, they will be wary of the precedent that Apeiron will choose to kill when he could have followed the Law and Unwritten Rules and just captured. In essence, this would be an action that pushes him further from his hold on neutrality into vigilantism/villany.

Of course, the situation is already FUBAR'd, and the ABB would be getting kill-orders for this assault on the city as soon as the kill-switch can be figured out, and Apeiron was already planning on killing Bakuda once he could anyway (she would almost certainly be at his mercy once he neutralizes her signal), so what's the issue with killing Lung?

Perhaps it wouldn't be too much difference officially, but I still think there's a bit of difference between executing the mad bomber that everyone would gun for without her backup, and executing the major gang-leader with a large body-counts but also steady behavior. Mostly because there are other major gang-leaders with large body-counts and steady behaviors that would start to get uncomfortable. Really it comes down to whether or not they (the PRT, the Gangs, etc.) think of Lung as he was (protected by the rules) and simply going with the flow his gang took without him, or if he has thrown his lot in with Bakuda's methods (a clear and present threat, to be terminated ASAP). That is what would determine whether or not killing Lung would have backlash with the villain crowd (there's going to be backlash with the PRT, if only in the form of heightened tensions until the Master status can be removed).

Assuming Bakuda gets executed after her heart monitor is disarmed.
 
I just want one huge ass Power Ranger style MechxMonster fight with Joe and Lung just brutally duking it out in some abandoned or sparely populated area of the city while Joe's clones face off against the rest of ABB and other opportunistic third parties that may try and take advantage of the moment.

Would it be an efficient and smart way to use his powers? Unlikely no, but it would send a message to everyone about what they should expect should they decide to try and force his hand.
 
Last edited:
Update's happening today, I believe. Since it's been a while, does anyone have a summary of what's happened so far?
 
Update's happening today, I believe. Since it's been a while, does anyone have a summary of what's happened so far?
The rough timeline of events so far
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Someone mentioned Timeline. I've updated my version through chapter 93 - Loom and Thread Rough Timeline: Friday April 1st 2011 - Joe triggers at his parent's home in Captain's Hill neighborhood due to stress and depression at a toxic family dinner. Yes, Joe did trigger on April Fool's Day...
 
Update's happening today, I believe. Since it's been a while, does anyone have a summary of what's happened so far?

This is a very nice list of butterflies and stuff that has happend.
so.....was re-reading the story so far and picked up on something that might have been forgotten.
About 10 chapters back, Kaiser sent Purity to recruit Damsel of Distress.

So, the butterflies thus far.
Gallant and Aegis transferred out to NY and Boston (respectively) following the less than gentle lovemaking to their ass that was received from the Undersiders.
Undersiders threat rating is jacked up
Weld and Fletchette transfer in to make up for the loss to two Wards.
Fletchette unknowingly brings with her March
Aperion accidentally brings down New Wave and gets Amy stuck in M/S just by telling the truth - an impressive feat if you consider people had been trying to bring them all down for more than a decade via fighting.
March teams with ABB/Uber/L33t and turns them into monsters. Assault on rig removes movers from play without Amy able to heal anyone.
Weld is knocked into the bay, later recovered by Aperion - then begins to leak to people that Aperion can do minor-but-permanent changes to Case 53s (later brings in Gully)
Aisha triggers slightly sooner, later makes contact with Aperion and aids him
Aegis makes a good showing against Blasto, who decides to relocate to Burrow's territory - Accord considers sending Armstrong a gift as thanks
Aperion launches attack on ABB financial center (may or may not have knocked Lung the fuck out during this encounter), removes all the legit money from the organization
Aperion's sea floor lounge is recovered and assembled in Accord's office, allowing him to relax more which will likely have larger knock on effects. Accord is also the only person at this point who knows Garmet is working with Aperion (two masters united in purpose) and approves.
ABB launch massive push against all of the cities groups. March uses regular grunts to defeat Coil's mercs (how does timing thinker do this?) Lung crushes the Merchants. Flashbang is set up to run into Hookwolf which snowballs into a massive cape brawl between the lone hero and many E88 capes.
This massive loss against the ABB pushed Kaiser to send Purity to Damsel of Distress, hoping to recover someone with powers who can actually hurt Aperion if needed. Confirmation that the "allies in Europe" won't come near this mess with the threat of a "Mad Tinker" looming (Aperion)
Amy meets her uncle Lightstar/Mike who is offering to take her from the city and away from the stresses of Carol.
March sends Uber and L33t off to mess with Burrow. Burrow sends Blasto to Brockton
Aperion works with Dragon to find Bakuda's deadman's switch, gets nearly there, before National Guard is called up and state of emergency is declared. Dragon is suspected of being Mastered and Aperion says he will "set her free." Dragon and Aperion begin E-War. Tactically a draw, strategically a potenal loss as this death/respawn has made Dragon stronger with fewer chains, brought her to Brockton to "find her new daddy the scoundrel," and made Saint piss his pants and set himself up to move to the Bay as well to kill Aperion.


We lost Aegis and Gallant, but we have gained Aperion and Co, Weld, Flechette, March, Blasto, Gully, Lightstar, Dragon, Dragonslayers, potentially Damsel of Distress and a god damned State of Emergency in the city.
so... have I missed anything?
 
Back
Top