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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Not everything that was on the pastebin is available to Joe. I've linked the BCF reference before, it contains all perks LR has said he's allowing because he's familiar enough with the source material. Darksiders is not on that list last I checked.
 
The Shallow said:
Not everything that was on the pastebin is available to Joe. I've linked the BCF reference before, it contains all perks LR has said he's allowing because he's familiar enough with the source material. Darksiders is not on that list last I checked.
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Can I get a look at it then? I haven't heard of this before, though admittedly I'm fairly new to this thread anyway.
 
docs.google.com

Brockton's Celestial Forge Reference

Possible Perks Domain No. ,Constellation,Place in Domain,Place Overall,Name,Origin Jump,Min Cost,Cluster Cost,All Costs,Chance to Roll (Not counting CP required),Description,Perks available 12,Alchemy Constellation,9,294,Mixing Mixtures,Banjo-Kazooie,200,200,200,1.39%,Your created potions can be...
docs.google.com docs.google.com
 
I think we've been underselling the capabilities of the Simple Scientific Solutions perk. Over and over I've heard it said it only applies to household matters, but that isn't what the perk says. For one thing, it specifically mentions automobiles. The second paragraph talks about research speed, and mentions figuring out an enemy fortress's one weakness!! Can't think how that might be useful in current circumstances...

LordRoustabout said:
Simple Scientific Solution (Tenchi Muyo) 100:
Science solves everything, even the little household problems. You can create supertech improvements to common tools and appliances, up to and including automobiles or similar works of engineering.
Create dishwashers that can clean dishes in an instant, self heating plumbing or forcefield windowpanes that act as air conditioners.
Well established methodologies and an instinctive grasp of same allow you to draw conclusions or produce results incredibly fast. You halve the time it takes to gather data, compose research on some subject, or devise a test to prove/disprove something handy for when you have to figure out an enemy fortresses's one weakness.
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Edit: I think this could mean the privacy issues could be applied to his Pinto, though probably not his other vehicles. So he could leave his workshop without Simurgh getting a peek, but only in the Pinto. You know, once it's fixed up a bit under this perk.
 
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AntaeusTheGiant said:
I think we've been underselling the capabilities of the Simple Scientific Solutions perk. Over and over I've heard it said it only applies to household matters, but that isn't what the perk says. For one thing, it specifically mentions automobiles. The second paragraph talks about research speed, and mentions figuring out an enemy fortress's one weakness!! Can't think how that might be useful in current circumstances...
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That last part is super useful, esp with Build That Wall that makes him great with architecture already, but on Automobiles, Joe is working on levels beyond a usual car. Maybe he could throw some into his Pinto, he's trying to keep that car mundane, but that version of Clarktech seems to have an alargy to being cheesed. Or just used for any reason besides that of it's creation.
 
AntaeusTheGiant said:
I think we've been underselling the capabilities of the Simple Scientific Solutions perk. Over and over I've heard it said it only applies to household matters, but that isn't what the perk says. For one thing, it specifically mentions automobiles. The second paragraph talks about research speed, and mentions figuring out an enemy fortress's one weakness!! Can't think how that might be useful in current circumstances...
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It was previously discussed by LordRoustabout that it was the working interpretation, considering it was a really cheap perk. If Joe wants to apply it outside of the household matters, he'd need to get Maddest Science Yet!.

Here's one of the more specific things said on it:
LordRoustabout said:
Simple Scientific Solution is more about application than location. It's a 100 point perk that lets you do things that would normally require the most advanced technology in existence and peerless scientific knowledge. The balancing factor is it can only address household problems. So it can make a kitchen knife that can cut through anything, but try to use it in combat and you get a spectacular failure. So yes, you could rig a privacy curtain to an RV, but only as long as you used the RV as an RV. Try to use it as a mobile command center and you're privacy curtain is going to short out and probably backfire. Anyone who's watched Tenchi knows how bad a Washu tech backfire can get.
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Nimeroni said:
That's an extremely common misconsception about how population work. The only thing that influence overpopulation is the number of children per women (or more accurately, the number of new people that become able to procreate, so those children need to survive).

Women have a limited supply of ovum which is created before they are even born. That's why women can no longer bear children after 45 to 50 year old (menopause). But we, humans, already expect to live longer than that, so turning humanity immortal wouldn't create a sudden boom of population.

To go back to the number of children, what would happen is:
- If the number is above 2, then we get an exponential growth, assuming no external death
- If the number is below 2, then the growth will slow down until humans stop making babies

If we look at the present day, in richer countries, the number of babies per women is close to 2, or even lower than 2 in some case (looking at you, Japan). So we will mostly be in the "good" case of no exponential growth.

TL;DR if Joe turn Brockton Bay population immortals, it won't be seen immediatly, and it probably won't be a big deal anyway. And of course, that's discounting external deaths like the fucking Endbringers - immortal doesn't mean unkillable.

(That was a message from the transhumanist gang.)
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readerdreamer said:
I see the Kurzgesagt influences in this argument. I like you.

One thing to be noted though - by the time Joe does this kind of uplifting, he'll most likely only do it once every threat in Earth Bet has been dealt with. At that point, he can also directly catapult humanity into post-scarcity society with access to space travel, so any concerns over overpopulation is almost tangentially answered even if people keep on having the same amount of babies as before. After all, infinite energy (from his many, many perks that break reality) + infinitely expanding universe = infinite proliferation, which was the Entities' goal, ironically enough.

And this is with his existing perks. Once he gets access to Maker-class perks, literally creating new realities gets put on the table, so no issues on the long term whatsoever.
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I wasn't arguing against making people immortal with a well thought out plan and the resources to support any amount of people over a reasonable time period for society to adapt. I did say that if Joe is going to do it he better be prepared to revamp the rest of society, so even if the original comment I was responding too was just imagining this as a city wide event I was imagining it more as a worldwide event. I mean, even if Joe did actually do this on an ill thought out whim, for the meme or whatever, I'm not blind to fact he's powerful enough to whip up a solution to any issues that might arise. At least, in the physiological or logistical sense. I still feel like there might be a lot of social issues that arise from the elimination of death, and believe me I don't see that as good enough reason to keep death around, but if you're gonna be responsible for personally ending human death I'd hope you'd try to plan out how to deal with all those issues you can't just build away (well, I guess he could mind control them away, but that naturally isn't on the table).

I was just arguing against dumping a potion that prevents you from dying and heals any injury you might take into the water supply on a whim, emphasis place on whim. Though it also seems like an important point to bring up that this potion is supposed to heal injuries and thus prevent deaths from danger as well as age. I'm not familiar with the source material of the perk, but it seems like a very overpowered post-jump item, so if people are just growing back after getting pulped by endbringers then one has to take account that there won't be any source of population decline. Which again, I don't mean that in the sense of a reason not to make people immortal. I mean that in the sense of "please consider this before taking an action like dumping immortality juice into the water supply without consulting anyone."

Edit: I decided I didn't like my first version of this post and seriously edited it. This is why the quote in the post below does not match any of the current text. Just thought I'd clarify that.
 
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TitanFrost said:
And I do imagine the version of Joe that would go gung ho with it would not be very likely to have a comprehensive plan.
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This started as a meme/joke concept, but seriously, this sound like just the sort of thing this version of Joe would have..

Rather than having a weak Spark (Like a PEASANT who took the "Spark" Perk, which this is incompatible with) you have an extremely powerful one. You don't limit your scientific explorations to a single topic, but are a master of anything that meets your eye (well, at least once you're in the Madness Place). You go further and farther than almost anyone, and when you get working, you quickly stop caring about things like "fundamental laws" and "nature of the universe" and ... well, pretty much anything. Warping the fabric of reality is a pretty common thing. Unfortunately, it's also significantly harder to get OUT of the Madness Place, and you get sidetracked pretty easily as well. Last week you were trying to get a stain out of your carpet, and woke up with an army of death-ray-wielding mice obedient to your commands! MWAHAHAHA.​

Other people seem to want to see it, but I'll be honest...I'm actually not looking forward to this particular 600pt perk all that much, it would change LordRoustabout's writing too much..
 
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Question, is The Truth limb loss fiat-backed?
AntaeusTheGiant said:
Other people seem to want to see it, but I'll be honest...I'm actually not looking forward to this particular 600pt perk all that much, it would change LordRoustabout's writing too much..
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Same. I feel that this Perk is more trouble than what its worth, since Joe's greatest advantage is the fact that he's actually not a Tinker in any way that matters, and most of all, that he's not a mad Tinker like so many people in-universe theorize him to be. LordRoustabout did say that Joe has ways of addressing the whole Madness Place issue, but it's definitely on the very bottom of the list of Perks I want to see.

In fiction, to me mad scientists are only interesting when you are on the opposite side or the odd benefactor from a mad scientist from time to time. Unless the series is centered on the comedy of a mad scientist's wacky hijinks, a mad scientist protagonist is just too all over the place for a more conventional story line.
 
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he COULD, but who would he try to revive? Annette? Hero?
It's more likely that he'll roll the perk than do it the old fashioned way.
 
If Truth/Alchemy just wants limbs (as opposed to cruel ironic punishments) then Joe can just set up a biotech 3d printer or something.
 
AntaeusTheGiant said:
That is true if he gets the perk thru the forge. But I think I've seen indicated he could get it the old fashioned way, by using Alchemy to bring someone back from the dead, in which case he'll go on and loose the limb.
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I am more interested, due to the fact that Alchemy is "scientific" and could be learned by Thinkers, in the occasion that a thinker would try to use Alchemy to bring back someone who died and ended up with a homonculi version of said dead person.

How would others react especially when they learn that:

a) Anyone not just capes can learn Alchemy with enough practice.
b) It seemingly can bring back someone from the dead with powers.
c) Apeiron in response to leak of Alchemy provides the rules of Alchemy thus implying his expertise.

Also, the fact that Truth is an entity that seemingly has control of said power.
 
Introverted said:
I am more interested, due to the fact that Alchemy is "scientific" and could be learned by Thinkers, in the occasion that a thinker would try to use Alchemy to bring back someone who died and ended up with a homonculi version of said dead person.

How would others react especially when they learn that:

a) Anyone not just capes can learn Alchemy with enough practice.
b) It seemingly can bring back someone from the dead with powers.
c) Apeiron in response to leak of Alchemy provides the rules of Alchemy thus implying his expertise.

Also, the fact that Truth is an entity that seemingly has control of said power.
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Joe's alchemy is manga/2007 anime Alchemy, not 2003 anime alchemy. So no homunculi from failed human transmutation. Alchemy could not revive the dead.
 
The Shallow said:
Joe's alchemy is manga/2007 anime Alchemy, not 2003 anime alchemy. So no homunculi from failed human transmutation. Alchemy could not revive the dead.
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Derp...

I know both of them and think they are both great Anime so I guess they sorta blended in my mind.

Then if a Thinker studies Alchemy and the knowledge that anyone can do it proliferates would Apeiron state the rules of Alchemy?

It would make people notice if Apeiron seemingly discovered a cape power that all humans can perform with enough study.
 
AntaeusTheGiant said:
Other people seem to want to see it, but I'll be honest...I'm actually not looking forward to this particular 600pt perk all that much, it would change LordRoustabout's writing too much..
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I'm also not a huge fan of the perk. I've only seen it written well once. It was in Cliffc999's most recent jumpchain, and his character spent a few years mastering their mind so that they could use their Strong Spark without going to the madness place. Some of Joe's perks will probably help him, but others will probably hinder him. Like others have mentioned, the most reliable way to bring someone out of the madness place is having reliable people around you. Luckily, joe has that.
 
InsanexSilence said:
Luckily, joe has that.
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True, except that is for one Joe. How about his duplicates? Joe's biggest concern is on what they are doing on their 20%, but if they too get Strong Spark...

Inherently, Joe's duplicates having short lifespans is an advantage, since it frees them from most responsibilities by virtue of not living long enough to need to confront them. With Strong Spark though, this advantage turns into a massive risk considering what they can do if left unsupervised for even a few minutes.

One Joe in the Madness Place may be doable, but three? That may be too much even for the AIs.
 
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readerdreamer said:
True, except that is for one Joe. How about his duplicates? Joe's biggest concern is on what they are doing on their 20%, but if they too get Strong Spark...

Inherently, Joe's duplicates having short lifespans is an advantage, since it frees them from most responsibilities by virtue of not living long enough to need to confront them. With Strong Spark though, this advantage turns into a massive risk considering what they can do if left unsupervised for even a few minutes.

One Joe in the Madness Place may be doable, but three? That may be too much even for the AIs.
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Maybe it won't effect the clones? That seems like something that would not happen though.
 
Cheetored20 said:
Maybe it won't effect the clones? That seems like something that would not happen though.
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That would be the best case scenario yes, unfortunately there isn't much in previous examples of Joe not sharing his perks with his duplicates. They quite literally get them all at once, after all, and they even got a headstart on Aura.

In the case it happens, the only answer I can think of to stop a clone from potentially doing anything hazardous while in the Madness Place would be like one of those chokers to automatically pop them if they show the slightest sign of going mad - and it has to be that sensitive, because even a second too late might have them disarm the thing, and once unleashed you have a mad tinker with all of Joe's speed and effiency perks let loose in an environment filled with things they could work with - but that kind of thing will put the final nail on the coffin that is "I have made disposable copies of myself, and if they go out of control I have to get rid of them".

Setting aside the mental impact that might have on Joe, the fact that this might happen any time means that Joe might have problems of having to more frequently drink duplication potions while doing his projects and facing lots of interruptions by sheer virtue of the potential to lose control.

All in all, that's the kind of thing I can see having consequences for Joe, both in terms of efficiency as well as mentally.

Edit: Speaking of Aura, wouldn't the Strong Spark count as a part of Joe if he gets it? That might mean that he'll have to go into the Madness Place from time to time just to be able to properly use his Aura, all because it requires him to stop repressing himself. Damn, that's definitely a big problem there.

If he ever gets Strong Spark, he basically has to hope that nothing bad comes out of his fugues, of which are known to often ignore practicality and sometimes morality in their home series, simply because there's nothing much that can be done about them.
 
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