Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

No. It's just for Household issues, any Household

So what I'm hearing is that Joe or a duplicate could totally make a utopian city in a small amount of time. A city where everything in it is a work of art. If Accord ever caught wind of that, he'd probably throw everything he had at Joe to hopefully convince him to do it so he'd have some peace of mind.

Edit:
What would he call the city though? Ape Iron City?
 
Last edited:
The Miniaturization power that comes with the anti-precog effect, that works on PtV as well doesn't it?

Outside Context Problem EXPLICITLY work on PtV. In fact it work on ALL precog except Coil. To quote the JumpDoc:

Outside Context Problem (Free):
It'd be boring if you were to just die right at the start so for free you'll have a selective immunity to the powers of a few rather nasty plot device level opponents that by all rights would probably want to kill you right out of the gate. Contessa, Ziz, and Zion's precog doesn't seem to be able to pick you up, instead returning a zero-sum error whenever they try to force the issue. They won't notice this until you garner enough attention for them to try and then they might take further measures to see what the problem is. But at the moment you'll be safe from being instantly killed due to the threat you pose to their plans. This works on all shard/entity derived precog. Your peculiar inter-dimensional nature just messes up their ability to predict you. Coil is an exception due to the weird nature of his power.
 
Outside Context Problem EXPLICITLY work on PtV. In fact it work on ALL precog except Coil. To quote the JumpDoc:

Thank you.

Now, what are the chances Joe could get that power soon? If he is holding back because of the likes of the Simurgh, then if he knew he was immune to precogs wouldn't he stop holding back... except for the things that would turn the entire world against him of course.
 
It was on his todo list, but the story didn't explicitely mention that he solved that one. However, keep in mind he have 1) a divine nature so he probably can no sell most gas 2) nanites that can heal him. I wouldn't be worried to much about gas attacks.
Yeah, remembered about them too late.

But actually, nanites working at his will, so if someone could use some very strong insensible poisonous gas(tinkergas?) on Joe while being unnoticed by him, then it maybe could kill him.

Basically - Contessa could kill him, and for someone like Aisha it would be just matter of finding the gas and motivation. Yeah, somehow i'm always forgetting how scary Strangers can be.
 
Last edited:
Now, what are the chances Joe could get that power soon? If he is holding back because of the likes of the Simurgh, then if he knew he was immune to precogs wouldn't he stop holding back... except for the things that would turn the entire world against him of course.

I don't know the exact probability, but it's a 400 CP perk, so it's... decently likely ? Joe is now regularly rolling 400 CP perk (he have 13 of those according to the Celestial Forge Reference document).

Garment is immune to Strangers, she should really stay close to Joe just in case.

When he get out with the intention of fighting, he always wear her. But that's not the case when he is in his civilian identity, so Strangers could have some opportunity to attack him without Garment around.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm. I wasn't gonna add to the discussion because the thread seemed to have moved past it by the time I read through it, but I think I can make a larger point about Joe's perks based on his issues with the Innuendo perk.

Yes, that perk doesn't in any way force him to make sexy quips. However, as per usual with Jumpchain documents, people are treating perks as disconnected tools from the protagonist. Either it must be trying to force him to be sexy, some say, or Joe must secretly want to be sexy and is doing it subconsciously on purpose, others say. These both ignore a very basic part of how perks are shown to function in this story, however: they are well and truly a part of Joe. Joe is a different kind of person now, in a sense. He is a person who finds it easier to speak in ways that are sexy than he does to speak regularly, though because that part of him was developed unnaturally through fiat he retains the mindset of shame that previously prevented him from developing in such a direction naturally. Think about how you yourself speak. If you pay attention you'll notice you fall into patterns: similar phrases repeated and repurposed, words that are more common for you then others; when we aren't focusing on what we're saying our minds just take the most familiar paths they have to expressing certain meanings. And now for Joe those paths are all streamlined to pump out the sexiest options speakable, and the "holding back" Joe does is simply that conscious focus placed on what he is saying rather than simply speaking naturally while focusing his attention elsewhere. A piece of him has changed against his will and through his remarkable ability to project a persona he is trying to pretend himself into being who he was before.

And that's why I wanted to bring this up again, because isn't that one of the central internal conflicts to this story that progresses (to a greater or lesser extent) with every perk gained? The huge bodies of knowledge and fragmentary experiences Joe's perks give him are always something he tries to push aside or control. They alter him, and so he attempts through directed effort to remain who he was, but the sad part of it all is that by the time the perk arrives the change is already done. The inertia of Joe's previous existence will carry his old perspectives and behaviors with him for who knows how long, but those aspects of his perspective and behavior dictated by perks are forever and will eventually serve as the greater foundation for whatever kind of person he ends up being. No matter how many quarters he puts in the jar, he'll always know in his heart that that technology really was just human crap, so to speak. On the levels of mind and body, human is gradually becoming a less applicable term for what he is.

I really hope we get to see some focus on this in the therapy chapters; if not in the next one then at some point. If the therapist really knows Joe well, he ought to be able to pick up on what parts of Joe are being overwritten/heavily-altered, what parts of him and surviving in spite of all the changes, what parts he's faking, what parts of himself he thinks are fake but turn out to now be honest core bits of himself, so on and so on. We have explicit word that Strong Spark will take Joe's mental issues and replace them with new Sparkier issues, but I feel like there is ripe potential for so many other perks to shift the landscape of what is and isn't an issue for Joe, or how he approaches his persistent issues by means of negative and positive coping methods. As much as I think it would make for some great scenes, the more I go on about it the more it seems like this therapist may be in quite a bit over his head...
 
Last edited:
For the Avid Glove I'm leaning towards a sense link with the glove's eye(s?) as well as it counting as one of Joe's hands, even when he's not wearing it, for the purposes of perks or magical effects. It is at least sentient (sapient might be pushing things), and the more I plan things out the closer it seems to get to Thing from the Addams Family.
Just read this, this is why biotinkering with the Avid Glove is essential. This could be seriously useful, this is actually great.
 
About the beating Joe thing. Yes there are ways, but if you don't rely on annihilators or catching Joe off guard either mentally or physically, you won't beat him. Even then, using either of those methods are difficult unless you have an unstoppable power.

For Contessa, I don't believe we said that she couldn't beat him. Rather, in a direct 1v1 physical confrontation (no talk no jutsu), she'd get slaughtered. Meaning that Contessa can't just door to Joe and shoot him, no, she'd need a bit more prep or extra steps than that.
 
Last edited:
Hmmm. I wasn't gonna add to the discussion because the thread seemed to have moved past it by the time I read through it, but I think I can make a larger point about Joe's perks based on his issues with the Innuendo perk.

Yes, that perk doesn't in any way force him to make sexy quips. However, as per usual with Jumpchain documents, people are treating perks as disconnected tools from the protagonist. Either it must be trying to force him to be sexy, some say, or Joe must secretly want to be sexy and is doing it subconsciously on purpose, others say. These both ignore a very basic part of how perks are shown to function in this story, however: they are well and truly a part of Joe. Joe is a different kind of person now, in a sense. He is a person who finds it easier to speak in ways that are sexy than he does to speak regularly, though because that part of him was developed unnaturally through fiat he retains the mindset of shame that previously prevented him from developing in such a direction naturally. Think about how you yourself speak. If you pay attention you'll notice you find into patterns: similar phrases repeated and repurposed, words that are more common for you then others; when we aren't focusing on what we're saying our minds just take the most familiar paths they have to expressing certain meanings. And now for Joe those paths are all streamlined to pump out the sexiest options speakable, and the "holding back" Joe does is simply that conscious focus placed on what he is saying rather than simply speaking naturally while focusing his attention elsewhere. A piece of him has changed against his will and through his remarkable ability to project a persona he is trying to pretend himself into being who he was before.

And that's why I wanted to bring this up again, because isn't that one of the central internal conflicts to this story that progresses (to a greater or lesser extent) with every perk gained. The huge bodies of knowledge and fragmentary experiences Joe's perks give him are always something he tries to push aside or control. They alter him, and so he attempts through directed effort to remain who he was, but the sad part of it all is that by the time the perk arrives the change is already done. The inertia of Joe's previous existence will carry his old perspectives and behaviors with him for who knows how long, but those aspects of his perspective and behavior dictated by perks are forever and will eventually serve as the greater foundation for whatever kind of person he ends up being. No matter how many quarters he puts in the jar, he'll always know in his heart that that technology really was just human crap, so to speak. On the levels of mind and body, human is gradually becoming a less applicable term for what he is.

I really hope we get to see some focus on this I'm therapy chapters; if not in the next one then at some point. If the therapist really knows Joe well, he ought to be able to pick up on what parts of Joe are being overwritten/heavily-altered, what parts of him and surviving in spite of all the changes, what parts he's faking, what parts of himself he thinks are fake but turn out to now be honest core bits of himself, so on and so on. We have explicit word that Strong Spark will take Joe's mental issues and replace them with new sparkler issues, but I feel like there is ripe potential for so many other perks to shift the landscape of what is and isn't an issue for Joe, or how he approaches his persistent issues by means of negative and positive coping methods. As much as I think it would make for some great scenes, the more I go on about it the more it seems like this therapist may be in quite a bit over his head...
Would realizing that be something that makes him second trigger? Or that combined with the biotinkering stuff from 40k?
 
Just read this, this is why biotinkering with the Avid Glove is essential. This could be seriously useful, this is actually great.
Honestly, given Joe can literally duplicate himself on demand, I don't see much benefit in the Glove at this point. Except unless, of course, the Gloves get full benefit of his knowledge as well as the mind to wield that knowledge properly.

In that case it can become Joe's assistant in the future during crafting periods while also doubling as a super sneaky sidekick in battle. It's funny to think of a single glove crawling up into some vent in a building and one transmutation circle later it has already deconstructed the entirety of its defenses.
 
Lord seems to be limiting it so that it only works on 'household applications' in general. I don't think it's limited to Joe's home specifically. Instead it's limited so that if you try using it for a not household application, it starts inexplicably failing like Leet's stuff.
Fortunately, household applications cover a lot, like security, privacy, and food. It will most likely fail if he tries to turn the home into a barracks, but as long as whoever uses it counts as one household he can probably make said house basically impregnable to any outside danger while also providing its own food.
 
Would realizing that be something that makes him second trigger?
You know, I think this might be the first second trigger suggestion in this thread I agree is plausible.

Of course, it would still have to come at the end of a very very prolonged traumatic experience, as per how tinkers work...

But it does parallel Joe's drug incident in some interesting ways. He has been given something (New Drug/Celestial Forge) by someone he's wary of yet attached to (Family Connections/A "Voice" In His Head), and that new thing is having effects on his mind which he doesn't consent to and that change how he behaves (Drug Side-effects/Perks).
 
Prolonged efforts to mitigate his problem followed by sudden realization that whatever he's trying to do - it won't be enough. Yeah, sound like repeat of his trigger event. This grim world just won't leave him alone, huh.
Oh yeah, wow, that actually fits even better than I was imagining in my own post. I was missing some obvious points.

Of course, all that potential will probably be mitigated by the fact that Joe now has an unconditionally caring support network that will help him through these issues.

How unfortunate :p
 
Last edited:
It means he should probably put together a 'these are my ethics' list, and regularly review it.
He have an humanity swear jar (since Master Builder), does that count ?
Probably not. The jar just lets him know it's happening, but a list of his code of ethics would allow him to see if the moral line has moved & how far.

What Joe needs to do is sit down, go through a list of various ethical questions/ points, form his opinion on them, and then write them down along with his reasoning. He can then review that list after every new perk to see if his opinions have changed and/ or if his reasoning has changed.
 
Last edited:
Probably not. The jar just lets him know it's happening, but a list of his code of ethics would allow him to see if the moral line has moved & how far.

What Joe needs to do is sit down & go through a list of various ethical questions/ points, then form his opinion on them & write them down along with his reasoning. He can then review that list after every new perk to see if his opinions have changed and/ or if his reasoning has changed.

Considering the Joe of the start of the story most likely wouldn't have been willing or even able to kill and the Joe of now wouldn't necessarily like it, but would be willing to do it because of the soldier training, this is a good idea. Maybe his Therapist will recommend something like that. His therapist now knows he is a cape and having an outsiders perspective who is also a professional...
 
Quick Math Update:

Back of the envelope calculations using the fantastic Brockton's Celestial Forge Reference spreadsheet:

These calculations include all repeating perks, counted once

Perks remaining by point cost:
100 - 15 perks, 9 of which are Star Trek
200 - 7 perks
300 - 14 perks
400 - 22 perks
500 - 3 perks
600 - 39(!) perks
800 - 4 perks

Averaged over the last five chapters, Joe is gaining 920 points per chapter.

Warning: These numbers are a decent approximation for good enough info. Do not take as exact and perfect.
 
Can you calculate what are the probability for Joe to draw one specific 400 pts perk next chapter (assuming 900 points gained), pretty please ?

(Very quick and dirty napkin math give me 1%, but I'm not good enough at probability to calculate the exact number myself.)
 
Last edited:
[
You know, I think this might be the first second trigger suggestion in this thread I agree is plausible.

Of course, it would still have to come at the end of a very very prolonged traumatic experience, as per how tinkers work...

But it does parallel Joe's drug incident in some interesting ways. He has been given something (New Drug/Celestial Forge) by someone he's wary of yet attached to (Family Connections/A "Voice" In His Head), and that new thing is having effects on his mind which he doesn't consent to and that change how he behaves (Drug Side-effects/Perks).
Hmmm. I wasn't gonna add to the discussion because the thread seemed to have moved past it by the time I read through it, but I think I can make a larger point about Joe's perks based on his issues with the Innuendo perk.

Yes, that perk doesn't in any way force him to make sexy quips. However, as per usual with Jumpchain documents, people are treating perks as disconnected tools from the protagonist. Either it must be trying to force him to be sexy, some say, or Joe must secretly want to be sexy and is doing it subconsciously on purpose, others say. These both ignore a very basic part of how perks are shown to function in this story, however: they are well and truly a part of Joe. Joe is a different kind of person now, in a sense. He is a person who finds it easier to speak in ways that are sexy than he does to speak regularly, though because that part of him was developed unnaturally through fiat he retains the mindset of shame that previously prevented him from developing in such a direction naturally. Think about how you yourself speak. If you pay attention you'll notice you fall into patterns: similar phrases repeated and repurposed, words that are more common for you then others; when we aren't focusing on what we're saying our minds just take the most familiar paths they have to expressing certain meanings. And now for Joe those paths are all streamlined to pump out the sexiest options speakable, and the "holding back" Joe does is simply that conscious focus placed on what he is saying rather than simply speaking naturally while focusing his attention elsewhere. A piece of him has changed against his will and through his remarkable ability to project a persona he is trying to pretend himself into being who he was before.

And that's why I wanted to bring this up again, because isn't that one of the central internal conflicts to this story that progresses (to a greater or lesser extent) with every perk gained? The huge bodies of knowledge and fragmentary experiences Joe's perks give him are always something he tries to push aside or control. They alter him, and so he attempts through directed effort to remain who he was, but the sad part of it all is that by the time the perk arrives the change is already done. The inertia of Joe's previous existence will carry his old perspectives and behaviors with him for who knows how long, but those aspects of his perspective and behavior dictated by perks are forever and will eventually serve as the greater foundation for whatever kind of person he ends up being. No matter how many quarters he puts in the jar, he'll always know in his heart that that technology really was just human crap, so to speak. On the levels of mind and body, human is gradually becoming a less applicable term for what he is.

I really hope we get to see some focus on this in the therapy chapters; if not in the next one then at some point. If the therapist really knows Joe well, he ought to be able to pick up on what parts of Joe are being overwritten/heavily-altered, what parts of him and surviving in spite of all the changes, what parts he's faking, what parts of himself he thinks are fake but turn out to now be honest core bits of himself, so on and so on. We have explicit word that Strong Spark will take Joe's mental issues and replace them with new Sparkier issues, but I feel like there is ripe potential for so many other perks to shift the landscape of what is and isn't an issue for Joe, or how he approaches his persistent issues by means of negative and positive coping methods. As much as I think it would make for some great scenes, the more I go on about it the more it seems like this therapist may be in quite a bit over his head...
Mind if I copy this over to AO3? Lord comments on there far more than here, and it would be interesting to see any input from him.
 
Back
Top