Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

I'm just honestly surprised that Earth Aleph can even apply Copyright laws and Cease & Desist Orders across differing universes.

And doing that just to stop someone's Universal Counterpart from putting their own name on a game they made.
 
I'm just honestly surprised that Earth Aleph can even apply Copyright laws and Cease & Desist Orders across differing universes.

And doing that just to stop someone's Universal Counterpart from putting their own name on a game they made.

Im not surprised videogame companies like Nintendo have cease and desist people for less, they would totally be stubborn enough to use copyright law on different universes

Lmao y'all be complaining about repetitiveness just be grateful Lord even writes this weekly behemoth for our enjoyment for free. While I sympathies with just wanting Joe to get out there and do stuff, how about we don't just mindless complain and try to keep things positive?

Im ususally a big defender on this fic ( I defended this fic in a QQ thread) but I think in this occasion I think the harsher critic and complain are from legit fans, Lord has created props one of the best tinkers fics in Worm so people want to see the really good parts like dialogues, character thoughts, struggles and battles. The long chapters of tinker talk always happened in generic tinker fics so fans want to see the really good parts and skills of lords writing instead of the part that can be found in any tinker fic. (Its what I think)

Edit:

I think it will be fine since next chapter is going to be a battle confirmed by lord, so we wont have more build up chapters for a while.
 
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I'm just honestly surprised that Earth Aleph can even apply Copyright laws and Cease & Desist Orders across differing universes.

And doing that just to stop someone's Universal Counterpart from putting their own name on a game they made.
While I initially thought the same, I had to think about how Bet and Aleph had an active IP trade, even if physical items were not necessarily exchanged. Under that paradigm, it makes a fair amount of sense that copyright/patent/trademark infringement would be a thing that was negotiated. I would point to the example of Cisco suing (and winning) Apple for trademark infringement for the use of "iPhone" as a brand, because Cisco had used the name as a trademark (that nobody I know ever heard of) a full decade before Apple did (despite initiating the suit somewhere around Gen 3 iPhone).

Basically, with IP enforcement going on, I could see dimensional alternate 1 suing alternate 2 to prevent "brand dilution" even if they both have literal legal entity right to the same name in either dimension and the further right to use their own name on products that they produce. This is also somewhat the way the Screen Actors Guild works as far as actor names.
 
It's me, your power (SkrmnMrgsm)
"Hey Joe, it's me, your power.

"I know that the whole random thing is well-established by now, but I'm just putting that on hold for a moment. The survey results have come in, and it's official: you aren't showboating enough.

"Oh, I know you've taken some photogenic pictures, arranged yourself well in fight scenes, accidentally quipped more than you meant to, but I keep giving you these fashion powers and you aren't getting it.

"Show." *claps* "Boat!" *claps tendrils again*.

"I love you, Joe, and you're using your power in interesting ways and yadda yadda, but I'm gonna go ahead and give you a theme song, the ability to freeze frame attacks, more quip powers, and a superpower to pose alongside the usual aesthetics upgrade, just so there's really no excuse for not showboating. And so we're clear, this is the carrot.

"If I don't see some anime move names, a little bit of monologuing, and at least one full entrance to fainting fans, I'm going to replace all future power upgrades with a sad trombone noise. Don't test me, this is important and you know I'll do it."
 
Joe getting new powers is throwing off March's timing predictions for him, right? That's why she thinks he won't be a problem much longer?

A little follow up, here hold this:
Japanese anime like Fairy Tail and Naruto have much better theme music for his power to draw from. Though with the posing power, when he faces off against Dragon in public, I think it should load up George Michael's "Careless Whisper".
 
Also, I am really enjoying Leets character here.

What I found most interesting was how badly it casts Uber as a human being, in terms of pushing for more brutal villainy. I don't think that's something I'd picked up on from other fics (and am perfectly fine seeing here, as an intruiging development and with what it means for L33ts characterization, it's just NEW to me). Between Uber and March, It really comes across as L33t being manipulated into Evil as opposed to finding it a truly worthwhile pursuit himself.
 
Don't want to sound ungrateful but this chapter had so much "water" in it, you could cut 50% of the text and chapter would be better for it, not because its was bad but because its hard to spread 1 spoon of butter on 10 different pieces of bread. But i might be in minority here.
Nah, I hate to say it, but I agree. This fic has developed a bit of a problem with the tech development and word count feeding back into each other.

Apeiron has so many powers built up that he keeps having to rework his tech, and that involves describing all the different effects that go into it, which ends up building enough word count to pull out more powers that then force him to rebuild everything again and the accompanying word count. It just loops repeatedly and he keeps on building and building and accruing more powers without ever going out to do anything with his stuff before he find something else new to work on.

Like I really do hate to say it because I still do like the story and have high hopes for it, but a lot of it has become just tech development filler. At the start of the chapter I was impatient to get through the Leet section to see what the MC would be up to, but then it was just endless tinker work and doing nothing with it like many other chapters, and then in retrospect it felt like the Leet part was way more meaningful and interesting.
That's not really a problem.

The real problem is that it is ANOTHER build up episode. We had way too many of those since the last physical fight (it was 9 chapters ago). It's fine to build up the power base a bit, this is a Tinker fic after all, but if Apeiron never use his toys, they feel a bit... hollow.

I don't know if later pages comment further on these points, cause I'm still reading through all the new discussion, but I wanted to post this before I forgot.

I too sensed an issue in this chapter, but I don't think it was inherently Joe's tech build up so much as it was a feeling of deja vu. So many times I would read a sentence and think to myself, "wait, didn't I read this description of this part of the workshop and what Joe thinks about it in a previous chapter? Didn't I read this very same description earlier in THIS very chapter?"

It reminds me of my own attempts to rush writing. We know Lord did a lot of quick work to get the word count up in the time he had remaining, a commendable effort on his part for a free piece of fan fiction on the internet, but it seems to me that in doing so he's missed a good deal of redundant language he might have otherwise picked up on and cut out.

Though I will agree for once that this issue was totally centered on Joe's tech portion of the chapter. I imagine there's a lot to keep track of there already, making it harder to avoid this kind of thing. To me at least, the Leet and Blasto sections felt very well written and "fresh" in contrast. We got a lot of new insight without it being attached to old information we already now, and I was more engaged with those sections as a result.

————​

Ah, and since there was an unrelated point I wanted to post alone, I guess I'll include it here before I forget it as well.

I'm fairly certain I've heard of a WoG that Leet has actually already expended most of his biological tech tree on dumb shit like fake Pokémon and other vidya monsters. Which sounds like the kind of thing that'd get him shot, so I'm a bit skeptical myself of that. I think it came up in the thread for Compulsion (would recommend), but I can't quite remember if it was an actual WoG or an author headcanon. Feels like it was WoG, but I could be wrong.

Not that disregarding it would be particularly immersion-breaking, honestly. Avoiding the shit out of wet-tinkering if you can just makes sense in a setting like this.
 
I mean... right now Dragon is moving in. Outsiders are coming for their pound of flesh in vengance, Coil is being Coil, Leet is prepping to change the underlining fabric of reality, and Joe is just... sitting in his lab working on stuff
To be far, this chapter he got the option to make all his stuff self-upgrading with use. That is a legit "drop everything non-critical" moment.
 
To be complete fair and as someone that really can't complain about free (to me) work and don't like to be critic of other. I will just say that thought process and writing process is different from each person. and that matters a lot to help write.
I admit that I have a (positive) bias here because I actually liked those parts and know that they can very easy speed read if someone wish. So, to me, is not a big deal and is more a feature than a failure.
With that said as someone that is yet to produce 100k in words in this language in a single work of fiction. I can only respect the dedication, the (a lot of) time and care. And I certainly that one of the reasons the updates are coming with this really amazing speed is this what his muse demands. It could be far worse. Mine muse for example loves to give me silly things with some more better actions/scenes when she like it.
His muse like to give good taste tech 'porn', skill 'porn' and descriptions of the creation 'porn'. And as Man that try to have good taste I can only appreciate this work more. Liked I said it could be worse, my muse was 'demanding' that I write the above paragraph since I got to chapter 30 I think. So instead of a weak joke we got a amazing chapter when his muse truly help him^^.
Well this was all I have to say about the matter. And I moving on and will not bring this again in a year :D
 
So how much stronger is his sting formula with all hes gained. The faes thing likely really boosts it combined with tge lords of the ring. Lacks material and workaholic.
 
First of all, pipe down you whipersnappers. If anything is worth saying, then it is worth taking a very long time to say. While these things could have been explained over 3,000 words rather than 30,000... would you really have preferred that? I could see this cut in half, but part of the pleasure in reading LORD's writing is in the moment-by-moment descriptions of his thoughts, processes, and what he is seeing.
Going from 30,000 to 3,000 would be a bit too much yes. 15,000? I'm not so sure. There's a difference between getting into the details of what Joe is doing, and repeating an explanation of every other perk (in particular the simplest and easiest to remember) and following it up with another paragraph that just rephrases that. That's just empty writing. I do enjoy getting all the little details, but it's been starting to drag even for me, and I know I have a preference for higher word-count then is normal.

And this wouldn't be a problem if there was just more plot going on in 30k words. Less details for non-critical projects, bundling 'common' crafting powers and effects together, short time-skips with quick summaries like the Dragon Battle (which was quite well executed), whatever works. Even if this is a chapter dedicated solely to buildup and the next is combat, it should cover more then just the morning hours.

For those complaining about the wordiness without advancing plot, I direct your attention to one of Mr. Jordan's published books from the Wheel of Time series (about book seven, if I remember correctly). If an average novel is approximately 220 pages of story and about 150k words, this used 1100+ (I forget the exact count, it's been a while) standard format paperback pages to advance plot development less than a day and primarily focus on world building and scenario setting. Compared to that, this is not really that much of an imposition, nor does it compare too unfavorably to pacing of other popular Worm fanfics on this forum.

Can it be cut down some? Absolutely. Should it? While a valid critique, you would lose a significant amount of context and "texture" from the story to do so.

While the episodic nature seriously cuts back on the setting immersion, doing a quick summary of upgrades might leave more readers significantly lost as to the equipment situation in the next action scene. It would also lose on the character reaction/sympathy setup of "*&(#Q! Now I have to rebuild my things. AGAIN!"

That said, I would say a decent compromise in position might be to allow charge buildup be waived during technobabble explanations unless explaining them in-story to another character (i.e. Survey as a weak possibility, or any other "main" character in Joe's association).
As someone who did read the entire Wheel of Time series back-to-back, yes, there is absolutely such a thing as too many details. This work may not have the profit motive driving it, but it does inherit some of the problems. By this point techno-babble and power interaction munchkinry are a core of the story, and utterly cutting that out in place of a summary would be a bad idea. That doesn't mean it is in anyway at an acceptable level as it is. Leaving aside word-bloat, it's not exactly the reassuring that the author feels they need to re-explain even the most simple of perks multiple times in the same chapter, much less multiple times per project. Their posting rate is fairly crazy for the chapter length so it's not like we have months to forget details, and it's even more extreme for those that are going through and reading the whole fic from the beginning.

Getting onto the topic of word-bloat, I'm concerned about how quickly Joe is gaining powers from the Forge. He's gained a lot of power, and that has already necessitated buffed and changed opposition. And chronologically its still the very beginning of his career. More then that though, the increase in words per subjective hour in story means he's gaining them faster and faster. Which means he can't keep up with his own potential, and RNG has repeatedly turned his triumphs into givens almost immediately. This is definitely good for making an OP character, but I can't say the same for the long term health of the story. The increased focus on characterization and interaction with others has definitely helped push story progression along with word-count, but it doesn't compare to time-less bloat from perk descriptions.

Now, what I'm hoping is that the new leveling power will mean there's a greatly reduced need to update Joe's gear in the future, and thus need to explain it. But failing that, a compromise is in order. Perhaps by what words are counted for point build-up (action/dialogue/interlude only for example), or for the point system itself to be revamped ('major' powers magnitudes more impacting and character changing only costing 4-5 times as much as the weakest is a bit...wonky. The same goes for end-game content only being 8-10 times as expensive as the basics. Those prices work for a limited starting budget and number of selections, not for when the budget and it's rate of increase grows over time with NO other limits).

Now, leaving all the word-count debate aside again, and focusing on the three most interesting powers. Sexual speaking, standing, and background music. I'll admit I think the music would be kinda cringe for me outside of a private setting, and as an introvert I'd think Joe would be similar. But the first two have a lot of potential, and for a lot more then the lols when Joe slips up and embarrasses himself.

I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say one of the themes of this story is identity, personality, and how the two are mutable. Joe has been highly dependent on the SI-Shard throughout this fic, but also forced to recognize that dependence in not healthy, nor is the Passenger infallible. He's also had skill-sets of such depth as to be whole shifts in perspective dumped on him, followed by foreign 'memories' of training and literally fae-like crafting experience. It has, and will continue to change his, and replace his ship of Theseus. And Joe is not the only character dealing with this. Though limited by interludes, Taylor, Amy, Weld, Dragon, and even Leet have their own unique circumstances and behavioral patterns that are actively changing them or have otherwise pushed them down a path not of their choosing. So these two? Well, to start with their is a heavy correlation between physical and emotional states. People that smile are actually happier as a result. Total posture control and shifting will have an impact on Joe's mental state. It also drives even further home a contrast that Joe has with Leet. Namely, that he is becoming more Apeiron the Tinker, then Joezef the Outcast. His mind has been warped by his expanded knowledge and perks, his fashion by his skills and companions, his body by his powers, and now finally his very behavior in and out of costume. And as almost all of these powers are tied to the Forge and his Cape identity, he's shifting more and more into being Apeiron. It's what interests him, what he spends his time on, what is important, and his chosen method of escapism (deciding to not abandon his civvy life or not, Joe has been rather tellingly avoiding thinking about it). Whether or not this is a bad thing is up for debate, but the MC has a lot of internal and external forces of change, and seeing how that takes place will be interesting. I am also I admit, curious as to what outside perspectives will make of him. Joe's observations are biased from his own creations (and their constantly being out of date), and his nature as an introvert (everybody has warped perceptions of themselves, but nobodies got' em like introverts with depression), and until now most other characters have focused on his tech, actions, and the implications of both.

Him strutting around in a Divine masterwork designed to be professional by a master, and piloted by a body programmed for good (if suggestive) posture? Well, even perks alone mean the reception will be wildly different then his fears of edginess, much less from the normal and entirely natural difference people have with perception of themselves and others (that is to say, we're usually better at spotting flaws in ourselves and assuming others can as well when they can't, and vice versa).

Edit: To clarify, I still enjoyed the chapter in all it's massive glory. But I find the trend it represents concerning, and I know I would probably enjoy it more if more action/interaction occurred within that same word-count.

Edit 2: To try an illustrate the contrasts I'm seeing, let's use Leet an Capes in general for comparison. Leet is traumatized, leaning into his trauma for power, and casting aside his old 'civilian' identity by choice, while being led by the nose by his ego. Apeiron is traumatized, healing his trauma because of his powers, unconsciously leaving his civilian identity behind, and having his actions dictated by his Shards vague feelings. In general, other capes must adopt behavior, clothes, and (most important of all of course) powers to standout from mundanity, great or small. Apeiron on the other hand must weaken his body, adjust his fashion, control his behavior, and mar his creations in order to seem 'normal'.
 
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That's not the bit that you keep coming back for?

Sure, the characterisation is on point, and the plot is happening, but I'm here specifically because Lord takes the time to go into detail on what each perk gives, how Joe interacts with it, and the pros and cons each has.
Honestly, that's the thing that keeps me coming back to the fic. It's one of the most enjoyable thing to find in fiction for me. The problem with the latest chapter is that there is a lot of repeat information. I mean, he could have described all of his powers once and been done with it but he did it for just about every item he built. It's not a problem in and of itself to describe how everything is interacting with each creation but it felt somewhat lazy when he was just giving out a list of perks that were effecting some of them.

That said, I did enjoy this chapter quite a bit. I am quite interested in just how things are going to unfold next chapter with March's obviously doomed plans and Leet being unsure of his place in the whole debacle.
 
First off, props to lord about the leet interlude.
second, I have questions; specifically about the life fibers.
1st, does the effect of life fiber energy get stronger with more life fibers? I ask because Joe showed off in the workshop when he first got them, and you would think Survey would have noticed an anime protagonist in joe's workshop. however, by the time Joe went out with them those ability's were available, and the only significant change to the life fibers that I can recall is that they grew.
2nd, is there any particular reason Joe cant just hybridize the life fibers with cybertronium to end that particular argument?
that is all.
 
and if you're stealth tech had held up maybe Apeiron the
your
sharpen scrap metal into shives to an intricate breakdown
shivs
'everyone' knows sand is just melted glass,
-you sure about that?-
armor, flack or carapace armor.
flak
and accept the dam shield."
damn
As most like does Tetra, though I cannot speak to
likely
fact that the pocked itself was duplicated was still
pocket
If the nine were active
Nine
think your successful Shatterbird proof.
you're
 
Between Fleet and Survey and the new nanotech hivemind, the tech development should count as character development.

I agree, though, that the author really should stop just listing out all the perks. Either gloss over it as "all my material-saving perks" in as many words, or narrate him using the powers one at a time. The boot-scrapping sequence is a particularly bad example; 170 words of rehashing what all the relevant perks do, and zero words of actually using them as it skips straight from saying what the perks are to describing the finished product. It really should've been close to the reverse.
 
As someone who did read the entire Wheel of Time series back-to-back, yes, there is absolutely such a thing as too many details. This work may not have the profit motive driving it, but it does inherit some of the problems. By this point techno-babble and power interaction munchkinry are a core of the story, and utterly cutting that out in place of a summary would be a bad idea. That doesn't mean it is in anyway at an acceptable level as it is. Leaving aside word-bloat, it's not exactly the reassuring that the author feels they need to re-explain even the most simple of perks multiple times in the same chapter, much less multiple times per project. Their posting rate is fairly crazy for the chapter length so it's not like we have months to forget details, and it's even more extreme for those that are going through and reading the whole fic from the beginning.

-snip-

Him strutting around in a Divine masterwork designed to be professional by a master, and piloted by a body programmed for good (if suggestive) posture? Well, even perks alone mean the reception will be wildly different then his fears of edginess, much less from the normal and entirely natural difference people have with perception of themselves and others (that is to say, we're usually better at spotting flaws in ourselves and assuming others can as well when they can't, and vice versa).

Edit: To clarify, I still enjoyed the chapter in all it's massive glory. But I find the trend it represents concerning, and I know I would probably enjoy it more if more action/interaction occurred within that same word-count.
I didn't say that the language of flowery and fluffy exposition ("word-bloat") wasn't a potential issue, especially when dealing with RE-explanations, just that by comparison it isn't too bad. I, personally, only have a minor problem with the RE-explanations when not separating between the hand-built vs production-built. I can readily see skills/abilities being grouped as saying something like "armor and production skills apply" or "support skills affect this," after a suitable explanation for the category, and the pacing being improved where being pedantic doesn't actually do any favors, or at least serve a specific purpose storywise. I will point out that, in sufficient density, many people tend to complain about world building and scenario setting as being nothing more than inconsequential filler rather than what it actually is.

As to your last point, I am starting to get explicit Right Said Fred/Zoolander comparisons: "It may be BDSM/Shredder wear, but I make it look GOOD!"
 
I just realized that when Accord sees the effects of the "Putting On The Reich" Perk on Joe's, Aisha's, & possibly Garment's costume he's probably going to fanboy over how they look & function.

He'll probably hire Joe & Garment to make a few sets of various outfits for himself & his Ambassadors.
 
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Considering the author is writing for exactly one person (whom isn't you)? No, it's not.

A compromise is necessary when two sides want something from each other. This isn't that, this is just a demand cosplaying as a compromise.
When there is (as far as I can perceive) an issue with the direction the story is taking long-term (that being too bloated with power growth to actually go anywhere), and an equally invalid option to letting it be (that is, cutting out all munchkinry and description entirely), then an option that falls between the two would by definition be a compromise. No other people needed. Whether or not you or the author think there is a problem in need of a solution like I do is a different matter, but that doesn't change what a compromise is. And you don't post on a forum like space battles if you don't want feedback from readers.
 
Real Talk: Anyone else notice that Joe is high-key going to look like a Big Budget Blockbuster Movie Super Villain?

And or like he just stepped off the set of Final Fantasy Advent Children, except in Worm it got a Live Action adaptation instead of CGI.
 
I didn't say that the language of flowery and fluffy exposition ("word-bloat") wasn't a potential issue, especially when dealing with RE-explanations, just that by comparison it isn't too bad. I, personally, only have a minor problem with the RE-explanations when not separating between the hand-built vs production-built. I can readily see skills/abilities being grouped as saying something like "armor and production skills apply" or "support skills affect this," after a suitable explanation for the category, and the pacing being improved where being pedantic doesn't actually do any favors, or at least serve a specific purpose storywise. I will point out that, in sufficient density, many people tend to complain about world building and scenario setting as being nothing more than inconsequential filler rather than what it actually is.

As to your last point, I am starting to get explicit Right Said Fred/Zoolander comparisons: "It may be BDSM/Shredder wear, but I make it look GOOD!"
Fair enough, my issue is admittedly more with the extra descriptions that feel like word-farming then extra world and character building. The Wheel of Time is not a very good example of heavy world building though. It has a lot of world-building. But that's not really why it's so long, nor was it served well by that length individually or as a series (at least, besides sales. That was served very well).
 
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