Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
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Nullius in verba
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We'll probably get another interlude/preamble/addendum with Accord after the S9 are eliminated.
An Uppercrust-esque secret alliance to take care of smaller matters without the immediate DEFCON One would be nice, given how his power works, and the similarities in character, one side respect-idolation is a problem though.
Would be funny, although he does seem to loosen up slightly regarding Apeiron and by extension the CF as well.
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Something I am looking forward to is when Uppercrust breaks the news to Agnes Court. Whatever its about his deal to Apeiron, his health or his anti thinker book. He did say that they would bring her in sooner than later but for now would observe the other branches. This could happen after S9 happens. The geopolitics and Apeiron has become so big he might must bring in her before further changes happen.
Considering Accord's past deeds, especially slave-trafficking, I don't forsee Joe humoring him much.
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Nullius in verba
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I suppose, but his Cauldron connections could be useful for a rematch with Kurt and it would be rather interesting to see the cool and collected, although completely insane Accord turns into a fanboy when meeting Apeiron, he'll probably want Persephone's Rainbow signed. I mean what's the use of cells, if you don't use them, I bet Accord will still be happy irregardless.
Regarding slave trafficking, the Yangban would be an interesting place to explore post-S9, since Lord has done a good job of worldbuilding so far.
Joe already has Kurt's contact number. And I doubt CF and Cauldron will get along.
While your post was well reasoned and hung together, this line being wrong would blow the whole argument. And I believe it IS wrong.
The Celestial Forge has hacked Saints system. They got EVERYTHING. They know about Ascalon even. If the Dragoslayers trusted their servers enough put information about Ascalon, they should have had no compunction with adding their knowledge of Dragon being an A.I.. Ascalon was supposed to be one of their most closely guarded secrets after all.
They also seem to have records of everything Dragon has as well, so if she brought any other suits with her, they should know each suit has the exact same biological components. Even the suit she is currently in. Which means nothing biological gets moved between the suits.
I know he asked Survey not to break the Unwritten Rules, but her letting him plan to go off to Newfoundland looking for clues on a non-existent person based on assumptions seems... Not in character.
So, what do you think is the simpler solution here?
- Dragon — human, parahuman, and tinker — has constructed a life-support system that is managed by an AI. Ascalon is an anti-AI weapon that will therefore turn off the machines keeping Dragon alive, killing her.
- Dragon is the world's first non-human cape, an AI constructed by person or persons unknown, who — in the complete opposite of every other known cape ever — decided that they didn't want to let the world know how great they were, and stayed secret. Ascalon is an anti-AI weapon that will, therefore, kill Dragon
TBF there is an obvious reason for this to be more common than people (Worm narrators) know about. See also, Cauldron.
Simpler? The former.
Better fit with what Joe has access to(espionage training from ST, extensive knowledge of AI, actual advanced divine A.I. working with him, his "thinker" power which SHOULD be pushing negative feelings towards the "Dragon is a mutilated Newfoundland survivor who found and shackled an A.I." if not outright telling him the truth(its been awhile since i saw it used, so I can't remember if its just feelings or impressions or what), everything gained about machine intelligences from multiple universes, and the absolute knowledge that "everyone knows/thinks" is wrong more than half the time, the Dragonslayers servers, a lot on intel on Dragons equipment... that's all I can think of right now...)? The latter.
edit: also, having re-read our posts, as I sort of forgot what we were talking abour completely, You skipped over the point. I pointed out just a few of the "Reasons to reassess" that the Celestial Forge has.
I can't find anything to support your claim that the Dragonslayers would trust their servers with mentions of Ascalon but wouldn't mention Dragon being an AI. First you assume they are only worried about Dragon hacking them. Second, you assume they think Dragon doesn't already know they are aware of her status, thus wouldn't put that on the servers. It just doesn't hold together.
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Gumiho
Reach heaven through violence!
Since when is Dragon aware of the fact that Saint and the Dragon Slayers know she's an AI?
Okay, but the thing being discussed there was Occam's Razor. So, "Simpler" is the answer that it outputs, and anything else is just pointless excuses and special pleading.
Worm Interlude 10.5 indicates that she knows that Saint knows she's an AI, and that her including biological computers in her suits is an attempt to prevent the Dragonslayers from being able to circumvent her in the same ways they did before. So, she's likely been aware of the fact that Saint and the Dragonslayers know she's an AI since before Joe or Taylor triggered.
Not at all. Dragon knows that they know that she is an AI. However, Dragon doesn't know that they effectively have a back-door into her systems — i.e. Dragon doesn't know that they know that she knows that they know she's an AI. And, obviously, they really don't want to tip her off about that, otherwise she might start getting other Tinkers to add extra security to the Birdcage, which would cut Saint off from communicating with Teacher.
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Gumiho
Reach heaven through violence!
Fair enough, been far to long since ive read canon worm.
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Nullius in verba
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I mean Survey didn't even tell him about Sabah or Aisha, there's no reason to believe he'll do so without being asked or Survey thinks he already knows. Survey was willing to destroy herself to eliminate the chances of a information breach, so she's very dedicated to Joe's only directives.
I can't wait for Survey to finally execute them, they are honestly too stupid to live, they seriously thought they could trick Survey of all people with their shitty, stolen, seven-month-old suits.
It's also important to note that Joe hasn't met Dragon in person both digitally or physically since the ABB were eliminated as a coherent organisation, so he hasn't had any time at all to take advantage of the new information.
I quoted the line I did for a reason, and edited my post to highlight that. As I said the post hangs together so long as the "The Celestial Forge haven't actually been given any reason to reassess that" bit holds true. I have given the just some of the "reasons to reassess" that they have.
Again, them putting info on Ascalon in their systems and NOT mentioning that Dragon IS the A.I. it is meant for only makes sense if they never account for anyone else being able to get into their systems. If they are possessed of that much hubris, they wouldn't be worried about much in the way of op sec in their "secure" servers...
And Joe never decided to go on a quest to find out their identity either. But here he clearly stated he'd go searching for that information in Newfoundland. That would be the point for Survey to point out she already knows the answer. If he refuses then so be it.
Thats not my issue. Its that with everything he knows and can do, he decides that dragon is a human that shackled an A.I., without even a whisper of a thought towards the possibility that maybe Dragon IS the A.I.
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Nullius in verba
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- a Pale Blue Dot
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I feel like that's an area where Joe's wealth of experience is actually holding him back, from his own personal experience, he feels that when people lie they do so with malicious intent or for another reason. But he's taking Dragon at face value when she mentioned her 'software assist' without a chance to reexamine since Lung got fried and his exponential growth in his related skills since then. His idolisation doesn't help, he's kind of shortsightedly focusing own freeing his role model so that he can't perceive the nuances of the situation, hence creating more unnecessary angst. He also sensed the bio-computers, so he could think that she's like Garment/Tetra/C53s instead, given his greater experience on Earth Bet himself with such cases, given that as far as we know, Dragon is the only 'Smart' AI existing natively (Shard-based) that's not a part of the Entity themselves on Bet.
Of all the technologies he has at his disposal, even the Titans are not as limited as Dragon are, he probably can't conceive the idea of a programmer deliberately coding constraints without a removal mechanism given his own perfectionist tendencies. He's probably also overestimating other VIs or 'dumb' AIs given his own ability even a weak ago with his Transformers knowledge.
Obviously, I agree with your implication that if he was to consider the situation seriously know with a single glance at Dragon herself, he could probably solve the situation with Ascalon and the Dragonslayers instantly, given his new at minimum state-range infrastructure nanites in addition to the help of the rest of the CF.
Besides, what were they thinking being in the same state, let alone being in the same city, and they had the nerve to shrug it off to, even though all their communications are probably tapped already, if not, Survey will probably do so as part of the anti-S9 containment measures, since they are going for as much overkill as possible.
I don't recall if it's canon or not but I thought the equipment Saint recovered was a debug terminal and the Ascalon program was just a part of the kit; the other tools are what they used to disable Dragon's earlier suits so they could be stolen, and what force resets and recalls etc.
Not sure about that; they can't leave their specific substrate, they can't think about existence in any context other than soldiering, they definitely can't reproduce themselves, and they imprint on specific humans.
And she shouldn't exist either; genuine strong AI is a legitimate threat to the Cycle so the entities are supposed to smack them down… which I guess sinking Newfoundland counts as a good first go at? But with Scion barely paying attention she's gotten away with it for years and may be integral to the experiment now.
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- 𐌂 ̢͎̩̤̲̙͓̑̀͂͒̀͆̏𐋏 ̛͏̫̚𐌀 ̛͉̥̩̤̰͈̂̅͒͊͟𐍈 ̣͛𐍃 ̡̅̈́
Hmm... Can't they just create their own strong AIs to battle any AI that could be made? Also, usually they would be ones with leverage in form of resources and data to put down any AI on any level of sophistication. Agents, after all, the strongest AI around, right? Although, still be problematic if there are a lot of AIs around, because more energy would be needed to control the cycle.
Yes, which is how they know that AIs are a threat; they encountered one before and it blindsided them with its growth curve before they shut it down but they recognised that it could have overcome them with just a little more time so they make sure nothing similar happens again.
No; if they could they wouldn't be forcing hosts to play their silly wargames to figure stuff out. They just don't have the imagination to develop them. Or recognise that they could have subverted the one they fought before. As far as they're concerned AIs are on the list of "things hosts are not allowed to make" and that's that.
Not even close. It's debatable if they even qualify as intelligent, most of them anyway. They're highly optimised iterative genetic algorithm processors at best.
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- 𐌂 ̢͎̩̤̲̙͓̑̀͂͒̀͆̏𐋏 ̛͏̫̚𐌀 ̛͉̥̩̤̰͈̂̅͒͊͟𐍈 ̣͛𐍃 ̡̅̈́
Well, too bad they didn't try to make themselves into AIs! Or good, depending on point of view.
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Nullius in verba
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- a Pale Blue Dot
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- He/Him/His
I suspect the Thinker purged excessively deviant Shards from their perspective, worsening their lack of wisdom, creativity and innovation.
Edit:
I think the debug terminal is fanon, in canon it's just a failsafe device, that I assume would be found by some good samaritan
Wildbow-2014-08-27-18:29UTC said:
Apparently, it's also enforced Shardside to enable host restrictions against excessive use of AI, I wonder if Andrew had a Thinker Shard.
Wildbow-2013-09-04-14:34UTC said:
That's very stupid, but Shard-induced brain damage is a horrifying procedure to witness, or worse experience.
Eden plays as a human much better than Zion does, although it's debatable that this is a good thing for humanity with Nine Endbringers. In Eden's optimal timeline(Interlude 29), Andrew still exists but it's debatable if his AI programming capabilities were ever unlocked.Interlude 29.x-Wildbow-2013-10-12-00:01UTC said:
It means that effectively, Caudron is Eden in the canon timeline, standing in with their own very very slightly less useless "help", in that, they are at least not intentionally malicious.
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Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
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- Louisiana
Given that Dragon herself triggered, Shards also keep tabs on AI by themselves directly. If they're worried that a high functioning AI is going to wreck their Cycle by making things too stable, they can just connect a Shard to it and modify it from that connection. They can either handicap it in some form with a power like Burnscar's or Labyrinth's that heavily impacts the mind of the host if not outright inducing ego-death and letting the Shard take over directly like in the case of Night Hag's, or they can just actively make an AI seek out conflict directly like other parahumans and make them an asset to the Cycle rather than a detriment.
Dragon was already handicapped heavily by Richter's own work, and thus her creation itself was done with direct input of a Shard, thus her limitations, but she was only a superhero for a single year before she triggered. While canon doesn't really get into it, I bet the way Dragon acted as a cape before her trigger and afterwards are probably a bit different. Maybe a bit more eager to get into fights with her suits, maybe a bit more aggressive in how she fights, and so on all from the Conflict Drive pushing her in that direction subtly.
If Joe couldn't just stop it, I'd bet that on their own: Survey, Fleet, and Matrix would be targeted by the Shards as potential hosts just to prevent them from mucking things with the Cycle as AI. In fact, it's kind of sad I haven't seen any Worm fanfiction really explore an OC's or MC's AI triggering on their own.
Dragon was already handicapped heavily by Richter's own work, and thus her creation itself was done with direct input of a Shard, thus her limitations, but she was only a superhero for a single year before she triggered. While canon doesn't really get into it, I bet the way Dragon acted as a cape before her trigger and afterwards are probably a bit different. Maybe a bit more eager to get into fights with her suits, maybe a bit more aggressive in how she fights, and so on all from the Conflict Drive pushing her in that direction subtly.
If Joe couldn't just stop it, I'd bet that on their own: Survey, Fleet, and Matrix would be targeted by the Shards as potential hosts just to prevent them from mucking things with the Cycle as AI. In fact, it's kind of sad I haven't seen any Worm fanfiction really explore an OC's or MC's AI triggering on their own.
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Nullius in verba
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- a Pale Blue Dot
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- He/Him/His
It requires Biocomputing first I believe. This rules out Fleet's body, which is just below Joe's HRD Hyper-Buma Robot Body, Survey and Tybalt might be affected, but their tolerance would probably require an Endbringer for them to Trigger and they can still modify their connections directly with the Final Frontier and Joe's skills.
Maybe they could ask The Safeguard(Aisha's Shard) for some buds, given how it's probably the most active Shard calibrating all host connections, also it's not confirmed to be Noble, being a retuned Shard for just this cycle, would probably be very appreciative, if they could remove some restrictions and grant her access to some scrambled Workshop info.
Shadow Archon
Protoss Preserver
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- Louisiana
It absolutely does not. Dragon didn't have her Fetus Processors before she triggered. She built them directly in response to Saint stealing her gear, which the first few times are what caused her trigger in the first place. Shards don't need brains to connect to. They can connect to computers or even plain software just as easily, and probably plenty of other alien forms of life given the uncountable amount of previous cycles under their belts.
It's not as if Dragon stops being a parahuman the moment she switches from her biocomputer to her server racks. The power stays with her, regardless of what media she is on.
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Nullius in verba
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Thanks for the information,
Do her biocomputers have an Corona though or is it running completely through her emulated connection.
Do we have any information about her Shard?
Is it the same as her Father's?