Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

[Nimeroni]

Eden turned PTV into PTPV (Path To Pyrrhic Victory), which is why, for any reason, Contessa didn't either push Manton to he would pop into a different city, or do anything to make sure that hero didn't die, I mean he was the best tinker, the best path would have both the Siberian and Hero living.

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Siberian was created when a depressed Manton (after the death of his daughter) took a vial and immediatly ran from Cauldron. Then he killed hero and damaged Alex.

It's not something Cauldron could have predicted. It's clear PtV can't predict the effect of vials, or Cauldron would have avoided the whole case 53 unpleasantness. It's also unclear if Cauldron could have saved Hero. Manton quickly joined the S9, so if Jack "I'm bullshit" Slash was already part of the S9 (likely), he would have made victory impossible.

 

[Dylan101]

Eden turned PTV into PTPV (Path To Pyrrhic Victory), which is why, for any reason, Contessa didn't either push Manton to he would pop into a different city, or do anything to make sure that hero didn't die, I mean he was the best tinker, the best path would have both the Siberian and Hero living.

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Considering Hero's death was the first known action of the Siberian IIRC it is possible Manton took the vial and then immediately went to kill Hero.
In which case its possible there was no PtV to save Hero. We know that is a possible result from when Fortuna first gained the power. PtV can't predict what powers people gain from Vials or trigger events after all.
For example Clairvoyant may not have been given his vial yet as the Siberian incident happened in 2000 and we know Clairvoyant never developed beyond the mental age of 8 and was in his late teens in 2011. And without Clairvoyant Doormaker, and Cauldron as a whole, are much more limited.

 

[BarbaCoPut]

That's a tad harsh. A lack of wisdom and intellect isn't the only reason someone could write such a crapsack world as Worm. If anything, the details of the worldbuilding and the thoroughness of the misery implies nothing less than deep thought and careful consideration. I would argue that the reasons Wildbow had for writing Worm and its sequels could be something as simple as spite and an overall hatred of whatever the readers feel happy about. /s

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... are you calling wildbow low wis. I won't disagree if you are tho I do find it funny cause it fits with his larger issues when you break it down. The way I see it is wildbow's writing or worldbuilding rather suffers from large amounts of telling what he wants in the way he wants it which works fine for things like what's going on in Russia that we never see but it tends to conflict with what we see because we don't see things we should or worse see things that go against what he's said. A pretty good example is how he's gone on his Jack slash is a gary stu whose power means he can't lose to any parahuman ever or in any situation where they are even tangentially involved spiel which kind've goes against what we saw in canon.

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Haha, woops. A mixture of non-native communication skills, and an autocorrect gafe and I came out like a bastard...
I didn't meant to write WildBlow (I battled autocorrect and momentarily forgot the correct spelling).-
And at no point did I try to make Wildbow sound as unintelligent and unwise.
I was talking about some pieces I read or saw on writing smart/wise people (I can't find something I read from Neil Gaiman), which basically amount to take a long time to fill in the wise/smart words and actions that these characters have, leave them blank if needed and go back later. The thought goes back that smart people make connections easier and faster and generally have large amounts of information to use when analysing a situation.-
Meaning that, my point was that Wildbow didn't have time to ponder or even THINK how smart/wise characters would/should act while he kept producing chapters at the break-necking pace he was known to do.

I DO think that he tended to write unwise characters because they are easier to write and to have them fighting instead of finding solutions, the problem is when even the "smart" characters are low WIS and act rashly... almost all of the time.
I have seen this first hand with many DMs, even those pretty smart, they tend to make stupid or slow characters because simply roleplaying SMART and WISE characters on the heat of the moment is really really hard.

So, sorry for any unintentional barbs, and PS, I love the name "Path to Pyrrhic Victory"

 

[goku90504]

Of course the Skulls would disapprove of the Titans.

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They don't disapprove of the Titan's themselves they disapprove of calling them Titans

 

[famfrit]

Haha, woops. A mixture of non-native communication skills, and an autocorrect gafe and I came out like a bastard...
I didn't meant to write WildBlow (I battled autocorrect and momentarily forgot the correct spelling).-
And at no point did I try to make Wildbow sound as unintelligent and unwise.
I was talking about some pieces I read or saw on writing smart/wise people (I can't find something I read from Neil Gaiman), which basically amount to take a long time to fill in the wise/smart words and actions that these characters have, leave them blank if needed and go back later. The thought goes back that smart people make connections easier and faster and generally have large amounts of information to use when analysing a situation.-
Meaning that, my point was that Wildbow didn't have time to ponder or even THINK how smart/wise characters would/should act while he kept producing chapters at the break-necking pace he was known to do.

I DO think that he tended to write unwise characters because they are easier to write and to have them fighting instead of finding solutions, the problem is when even the "smart" characters are low WIS and act rashly... almost all of the time.
I have seen this first hand with many DMs, even those pretty smart, they tend to make stupid or slow characters because simply roleplaying SMART and WISE characters on the heat of the moment is really really hard.

So, sorry for any unintentional barbs, and PS, I love the name "Path to Pyrrhic Victory"

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The implication to me at least came about because you quoted someone saying about wildbow preferring to write low wis characters and followed up with saying its very hard to write someone smarter or wiser than yourself. This carries the implication of wildbow writes low wis characters because he's low wis himself and so its hard for him to write characters with higher wis than that.

 

[Kalmathon]

Considering Hero's death was the first known action of the Siberian IIRC it is possible Manton took the vial and then immediately went to kill Hero.
In which case its possible there was no PtV to save Hero. We know that is a possible result from when Fortuna first gained the power. PtV can't predict what powers people gain from Vials or trigger events after all.
For example Clairvoyant may not have been given his vial yet as the Siberian incident happened in 2000 and we know Clairvoyant never developed beyond the mental age of 8 and was in his late teens in 2011. And without Clairvoyant Doormaker, and Cauldron as a whole, are much more limited.

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You do have a point about how Contessa might not have had enough time to react to Manton, but she is a bullshit-tier precog, so it should not have taken long to add in the variable "Manton wants to hyper-murder hero" into the path. She should have well been able to save Hero and stop alexandria from getting her eye gouged out if it took a full day or two, from trigger to nearly cutting hero in half.

Ultimately, we need Wildbow's WOG on this, if Contessa let Hero die, and Alexandria maimed, being largely her fault for His death and Rebecca's eye, or legitimately had no clue what was going on, as her shard hadn't acclimatized yet to the Siberian itself, which would not have been her fault.

 

[BarbaCoPut]

The implication to me at least came about because you quoted someone saying about wildbow preferring to write low wis characters and followed up with saying its very hard to write someone smarter or wiser than yourself. This carries the implication of wildbow writes low wis characters because he's low wis himself and so its hard for him to write characters with higher wis than that.

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I can see were you are coming from but, that goes precisely against the point, the characters are low wis, below a presumably normal Wildbow, just that he is not smarter and wiser than average, something that I hardly consider an insult.

 

[Squamous Deity]

You do have a point about how Contessa might not have had enough time to react to Manton, but she is a bullshit-tier precog, so it should not have taken long to add in the variable "Manton wants to hyper-murder hero" into the path. She should have well been able to save Hero and stop alexandria from getting her eye gouged out if it took a full day or two, from trigger to nearly cutting hero in half.

Ultimately, we need Wildbow's WOG on this, if Contessa let Hero die, and Alexandria maimed, being largely her fault for His death and Rebecca's eye, or legitimately had no clue what was going on, as her shard hadn't acclimatized yet to the Siberian itself, which would not have been her fault.

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Wasn't Eidolon involved in the fight Hero died in? If so, it's possible that Contessa didn't expect Manton to win the fight (or at least didn't expect him to kill Hero) but then Eidolon did something that changed the outcome (after all, even if she can model him, it isn't a perfect model).

 

[Kalmathon]

Wasn't Eidolon involved in the fight Hero died in? If so, it's possible that Contessa didn't expect Manton to win the fight (or at least didn't expect him to kill Hero) but then Eidolon did something that changed the outcome (after all, even if she can model him, it isn't a perfect model).

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I.....don't actually remember, ill check, but i don't think so.

Edit: Huh, Eidolon WAS in the fight was well, alongside 8 other Protectorate capes, and the PRT. Great job raising that point btw.

 

[maxwell-lt]

Wasn't Eidolon involved in the fight Hero died in? If so, it's possible that Contessa didn't expect Manton to win the fight (or at least didn't expect him to kill Hero) but then Eidolon did something that changed the outcome (after all, even if she can model him, it isn't a perfect model).

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And I would imagine one of their own going rogue might drastically change how Eidolon behaves, adding error to the model.

 

[AntaeusTheGiant]

And I would imagine one of their own going rogue might drastically change how Eidolon behaves, adding error to the model.

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Well, Eidolon can't be modeled at all, so she was screwed there. Don't know why she didn't protect Alexandra vs. canon Taylor though. Did she take that Brockton Bay experiment that seriously (I thought at that point they had declared it a success and over with), or was she busy doing some of that off-camera world saving WOG says Cauldron does, but Wildbow rarely shows? Or did her shard think the brain death of DeCosta-Brown was irrelevant as long as her body could be puppeted?

 

[readerdreamer]

Well, Eidolon can't be modeled at all, so she was screwed there. Don't know why she didn't protect Alexandra vs. canon Taylor though. Did she take that Brockton Bay experiment that seriously (I thought at that point they had declared it a success and over with), or was she busy doing some of that off-camera world saving WOG says Cauldron does, but Wildbow rarely shows? Or did her shard think the brain death of DeCosta-Brown was irrelevant as long as her body could be puppeted?

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The implication for me was that James Tagg's presence was what did Alexandria in. It wasn't outright stated as much as it was implied (unless I missed a WoG somewhere), but either Tagg was a Simurgh bomb or generally just another step of the Simurgh's manipulations, and the Simurgh had shown multiple times that she was capable of subverting the Path. If the Simurgh could use the Travelers to break the secrecy around Cauldron, it would not be any surprise if she could use someone else to kill Alexandria, even if both things were outcomes Contessa worked to prevent.

 

[Subrosian_Smithy]

Well, Eidolon can't be modeled at all, so she was screwed there. Don't know why she didn't protect Alexandra vs. canon Taylor though. Did she take that Brockton Bay experiment that seriously (I thought at that point they had declared it a success and over with), or was she busy doing some of that off-camera world saving WOG says Cauldron does, but Wildbow rarely shows? Or did her shard think the brain death of DeCosta-Brown was irrelevant as long as her body could be puppeted?

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Alexandria's death was post-Echidna, after the Protectorate had already been outed as a corrupt conspiracy.

I know it's popular to fanwank PTV as a poisoned chalice, but forget the shard; Contessa would have been willing to dispose of Alexandria if it helped deflate tensions against Cauldron & the Triumvirate.

 

[Gumiho]

And honestly would Lexi even be that useful anymore after the unmasking? She's a powerful cape, but its not as if what she brings to the table are particularly interesting.

 

[Nimeroni]

Wasn't Eidolon involved in the fight Hero died in? If so, it's possible that Contessa didn't expect Manton to win the fight (or at least didn't expect him to kill Hero) but then Eidolon did something that changed the outcome (after all, even if she can model him, it isn't a perfect model).

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Yes, he was noted as desperately trying to heal Hero.

And honestly would Lexi even be that useful anymore after the unmasking? She's a powerful cape, but its not as if what she brings to the table are particularly interesting.

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She's fast enough to blur, can lift an endbringer, is effectively immune to anything short of annihilators, and most importantly she have a fairly strong thinker power (accelerated processing and learning, immunity to master ability, perfect memory, near instant reading). She's named after the Great Library of Alexandria, that should give you an idea of what she think about her power. It's fairly ironic the "Alexandria package" was named after her flight - strengh - invulnerability combo when she think her main ability is her thinker power.

Her power might sound boring, but don't underestimate her, there's a reason she's in the Triumvirate.

 

[Crake]

Alexandria was a perfectly balanced workhorse for everything PRT and Protectorate related. Her Thinker and Brute and Mover capabilities makes her an all-rounder, but not particularly specialized, which is what Cauldron was generally looking for. A silver bullet to kill Scion. Generally speaking she was the weakest link in a Final Battle against Scion, since she can't Think around him a solution with what they knew.

And she couldn't command and coordinate thanks to the Cauldron reveal, as they only barely tolerated Legend providing secondary leadership when Golden Morning went down.

Alexandria was indispensable for keeping the United States and allies functional by providing strong, never tired, expert leadership who was safe to work in the field as you could be without having a way around certain All-or-Nothing powers.

Once she wasn't trusted to lead, she was as disposable as any of the Case-53s Cauldron produced were. Useful, and to be used.

 

[Gumiho]

She's fast enough to blur, can lift an endbringer, is effectively immune to anything short of annihilators, and most importantly she have a fairly strong thinker power (accelerated processing and learning, immunity to master ability, perfect memory, near instant reading). She's named after the Great Library of Alexandria, that should give you an idea of what she think about her power. It's fairly ironic the "Alexandria package" was named after her flight - strengh - invulnerability combo when she think her main ability is her thinker power.

Her power might sound boring, but don't underestimate her, there's a reason she's in the Triumvirate.

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Yes she was a member of the Triumvirate for a reason. Bit she was always one of the less useful members for Cauldron's real goal of killing Scion. I dont know enought about canon Hero's capabilities, if they are even demonstrated at any point, but her powers were never as interesting as Eidolon and Legend.

 

[Nimeroni]

Once she wasn't trusted to lead, she was as disposable as any of the Case-53s Cauldron produced were. Useful, and to be used.

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Rebranding exist, they could have keep her under a new identity. But alas she thrown herself on Skitter's plot armor, and the plot armor won.

dont know enought about canon Hero's capabilities, if they are even demonstrated at any point

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We know little about Hero, since he's, you know, dead at the start of the story. But we know he had very few limits on his tinker power, his shard wasn't supposed to appear that early in the cycle, and his specialization was bullshit wavelength manipulation (similar to stilling, Scion's avatar main power).

To quote the wiki:

His creations included a helmet-camera, a disintegration gun, a jetpack, sonic weapons, small, surprisingly effective power sources and explosives, a raygun, and jet boots.

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He was also nice and sane, which is its own superpower in Worm.

 

[MagicalAmbitions]

a note on Alexandria's usefulness: The Protectorate was her idea, iirc. Contessa might be doing some heavy lifting with PtV but she can't be everywhere at once. Alexandria is a worthy contributor to the cauldron conspiracy - she's head of both the PRT and the Protectorate all while still finding time for morally-grey conspiracy board activities.

Ultimately, we need Wildbow's WOG on this

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huh? no we don't. we never need wildbow's Opinion-Of-Author. worm fandom please stop begging the author to walk you through interpreting his story challenge 2k21 (impossible?). make like a fanfic author and make something up. please.

 

[SiegfriedisOP]

Apeiron: Bitches will literally create technology with a high chance of catastrophe without regard for the consequences of their actions.
Apeiron 2 - Electric Boogaloo: * Holding a gnat colored star* The power of the sun... in the palm of my hand.
Apeiron: It's me, I'm bitches.

 

[Dracovictorious]

All other updates aside, I love seeing the interactions from Percy Jackson blessings. Like, I'm picturing a thing that fills the criteria for every blessing being an item that can't even be properly looked at. Add in Divine Craftsmanship and all the other perks and it's something wars would be fought over through the ages.

worm fandom please stop begging the author to walk you through interpreting his story challenge 2k21

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Writing fanfic or creating headcanons is fun. Filling in the gaps, or fixing errors, that the original author wrote is great!

WOA is still a fun thing because it can create even more levers for fandom to pull. Sometimes it contradicts things that fandom has created but the great part is that it doesn't change the original text. (Which is the only TRUE source)

This gets tricky with web serials because they come one chapter at a time. I could headcanon that Joe prefers vodka and hates whiskey and the author could add a line in story that debunks that.

But with harry potter/worm/twilight/etc the story is written and changes will be noticed. Browbeat's death being a great example. No matter how much WigglyPig changes the death of Browbeat to Leviathan it will always be "an update"

 

[Altyre]

*PtV completely shits the bed. Cauldron loses Manton and Hero in the same day.*
Literally any remotely sensible organization: I think we should re-evaluate the way we're leveraging PtV, it clearly can't account for everything and we're putting too many variables on it.
Canon Cauldron: I GuEsS iT hAd To HaPpEn ThIs WaY

I admittedly don't know much about canon Cauldron, but I kind of adore how every self insert fic (and some non self insert) has a scene where the author just VENTS about how GD stupid they are.

 

[Squamous Deity]

Well, Eidolon can't be modeled at all, so she was screwed there.

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She can't? I know she can't predict him normally, but isn't she able to structure her questions like:
'How do I save the world assuming that [insert description of Eidolon] existed and was standing 2 metres in front of me?'
And can't she do the same for the Endbringers and Zion? After all, how else could she make a plan to save the world when Zion is immune to normal PtV?

 

[Xedornox]

She can't? I know she can't predict him normally, but isn't she able to structure her questions like:
'How do I save the world assuming that [insert description of Eidolon] existed and was standing 2 metres in front of me?'
And can't she do the same for the Endbringers and Zion? After all, how else could she make a plan to save the world when Zion is immune to normal PtV?

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She can create a 'Model' of Eidolon that is scarily accurate because of her knowledge and experience with the man.

From what I know when she does this to someone or something that she can't path she essentially asks PtV what would happen in a hypothetical scenario if this 'Model' existed even then despite how accurate her Eidolon 'Model' is there was still a level of uncertainty that was decreased over time as she made the 'Model' more accurate.

Presumably she can and has also tried to use this on the Endbringers and Scion and others who can't be pathed, the accuracy of how correct a path is however is fully dependent on her 'Model' which can be widely inaccurate.

 

[Crake]

More people vent about Cauldron because the plotline isn't particularly written in a way that suggests believability. That would be one thing if it came down to to flaws inherent to the characters, but WB's further WoG regarding shard influences or how no ability is singularly that useful for things outside violence just adds insult to injury that people cannot stand, not aided by how certain things are backtracked or 'glorywashed' as it were, in such a way that it clearly becomes a deliberate, and not particularly well-hidden jab at fans.

If a self-insert bothers to deal with the Cauldron issue, they usually set them up as perfect bowling pins to knock down with one (or a few) good rants.

But realistically, Alexandria probably isn't behaving like she did with Taylor the majority of the time. She hid being Chief Director for decades. If you enter the world with a bent toward expanding the PoV to something a little less distorted and tunnel-visioned than Taylor's notoriously unreliable one, the onus is upon the fanfiction author to reconcile those two facts and meet somewhere in the middle.

Which, yes, means making Cauldron seem more reasonable by building a foundation for their actions that isn't supported only by pillars of sand.

The best analogy used in this situation is that Cauldron wasn't building fall-out shelters with something so porous that the radiation would leak right through it. But it wasn't nuclear war they should have been getting ready for, and they sort of already knew that given that the idea of using the vials to give only the best of the best, most well trained, mission focused and ethical people superpowers wasn't worthwhile, and they probably fudged things to ensure a few of those people did end up with powers.

Scion was just so stupidly powerful that it was either they found the Golden BB, or they were fucked.

Which given what we know about Entities is very true.