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Advice and Trust [NGE]

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Dmol8 said:
You do realize that there are mathematical equations for dividing by zero? And that the square root of minus one being incalculable is more of a current limitation of our bio-logical mathematical circuits than an actual incalculable equation? Why on earth would you assume that Arael would have a problem with that piece of division?
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I was answering @MWKillKenny84's question about the inside of Deadpool's head by alluding to the joke that "Black Holes are where God divided by zero." Considering this is Deadpool, I threw in i just to make the expression a little less real.

And I never said Arael would have a problem with it. I also never said it was unsolvable. Under certain conditions, you can get a useful answer out of dividing by 0, like l'Hôpital's rule, or certain applications in matrix or abstract algebra. Those techniques all require specific conditions be met. Baring explicitly declaring those conditions, one must assume they do not exist. In which case, there is no meaningful answer to a constant divided by 0

i isn't "incalculable," so much as it does not exist within the set of all Real Numbers. It is an abstraction created to address limitations of the Real Numbers. A set of rules were developed that treated Imaginary Numbers as a special case, within a larger framework.
 
Lord of Bays said:
Ignoring that, Shinji canonically DID want A/S, I'm not pre-assuming anything.
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Oh here we go again... :eyeroll:

Lord of Bays said:
Not to negate that, you're right that he was 14 and exposed (heh) to attractive girls really for the first time in his life, but it was Asuka's death and Asuka's rejection (or his hallucination of her rejection) that well and truly broke him in EoE.
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Yes, and he stopped screaming when Kaworu formed itself out of GNR, and he was calmest in Rei's lap and goddamnit didn't I just have that debate in the cliche thread??? Though, yes, incidentally, you completely forgot about Kaworu. If it weren't for him being Tabris, I think Shinji could have been happy with him. Which is nicely mirrored with Rei in this fic...

Rei's role in the series is rather diminished after Episode 6, but Shinji does build up a bond with her. And I don't think his bond with Asuka is any deeper (if we go by the manga, which emphasizes the depth of his bond to Rei, quite the opposite, but granted, that's the manga); it's just that he's in closer proximity to Asuka, living with her, and physical attraction is playing a large part.

and NGE-Rei is... NGE-Rei.
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Well, that would then be one thing changed ;)

but realistically speaking even in his state I can't imagine he ever thought about anyone but Asuka in those terms.
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Srsly? -_-.
 
grimlock said:
I was answering @MWKillKenny84's question about the inside of Deadpool's head by alluding to the joke that "Black Holes are where God divided by zero." Considering this is Deadpool, I threw in i just to make the expression a little less real.
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OK Fair enough.

grimlock said:
And I never said Arael would have a problem with it. I also never said it was unsolvable. Under certain conditions, you can get a useful answer out of dividing by 0, like l'Hôpital's rule, or certain applications in matrix or abstract algebra. Those techniques all require specific conditions be met. Baring explicitly declaring those conditions, one must assume they do not exist. In which case, there is no meaningful answer to a constant divided by 0
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Yeah we still haven't figured out what a general condition to divide by zero even looks like.

grimlock said:
i isn't "incalculable," so much as it does not exist within the set of all Real Numbers. It is an abstraction created to address limitations of the Real Numbers. A set of rules were developed that treated Imaginary Numbers as a special case, within a larger framework.
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Yeah we're like the Ancient Greeks with Irrational Numbers on that topic. We know that our current version of mathematics doesn't work when it comes to Imaginary Numbers, but we have yet to figure out how to fit the new type of numbers and our old number systems together.
 
Susano said:
Oh here we go again... :eyeroll:
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It never gets old.

Yes, and he stopped screaming when Kaworu formed itself out of GNR, and he was calmest in Rei's lap and goddamnit didn't I just have that debate in the cliche thread??? Though, yes, incidentally, you completely forgot about Kaworu. If it weren't for him being Tabris, I think Shinji could have been happy with him. Which is nicely mirrored with Rei in this fic...
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Not to be picky, but one of the reasons Asuka stopped appearing in instrumentality is due to her (or Shinji's hallucination of her) rejecting him.

While Shinji did calmed down after that, he also went implicitly through the visions we see in episode 26 to make his final decision, something telling that the first person he saw in his dream is Asuka, who is still her fiery self unlike Rei who becomes so, so different.

Rei's role in the series is rather diminished after Episode 6, but Shinji does build up a bond with her. And I don't think his bond with Asuka is any deeper (if we go by the manga, which emphasizes the depth of his bond to Rei, quite the opposite, but granted, that's the manga); it's just that he's in closer proximity to Asuka, living with her, and physical attraction is playing a large part.
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I must say that Asuka and him probably made a truce offscreen (She does stay on Misato's flat despite her initial clashes with Shinji), enough that both start to have an attraction of each other and that he does save her from the volcano without second thought.
 
akrasiel23 said:
I must say that Asuka and him probably made a truce offscreen (She does stay on Misato's flat despite her initial clashes with Shinji), enough that both start to have an attraction of each other and that he does save her from the volcano without second thought.
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He also opens up the still smoking door of Rei's entry-plug after Ramiel. Hell, he rather let himself get mauled by Bardiel rather than fight back even before he even knew who was inside EVA-03 - it was enough for him that it was another person. And I don't think there was so much a truce as Misato simply presenting them with a fait accompli.

akrasiel23 said:
Not to be picky, but one of the reasons Asuka stopped appearing in instrumentality is due to her (or Shinji's hallucination of her) rejecting him.
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Rei and Kaworu are kinda generally his spirit guides due to, well, their nature and role in Instrumentality. But it is a nice contrast that what he gets from Asuka is argument and strife (leaving aside how justified Asuka may be), while what he gets from them is calmness and comfort.
 
Susano said:
He also opens up the still smoking door of Rei's entry-plug after Ramiel. Hell, he rather let himself get mauled by Bardiel rather than fight back even before he even knew who was inside EVA-03 - it was enough for him that it was another person. And I don't think there was so much a truce as Misato simply presenting them with a fait accompli.


Rei and Kaworu are kinda generally his spirit guides due to, well, their nature and role in Instrumentality. But it is a nice contrast that what he gets from Asuka is argument and strife (leaving aside how justified Asuka may be), while what he gets from them is calmness and comfort.
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From a point of view, both Rei and Kaworu are meant to be the advisors who give him the support that neither Yui nor Gendo gave him in his life, tellingly, the next scene once he leaves instrumentality is to see Asuka by his side. (There is also some official art that shows both of them having reconcialiated with each other afterwards.)

And don't forget that in Rebuild, Shinji does start to level Nerv's base after the whole deal with Bardiel is done, something he doesn't do once he knows Touji is inside of the Unit-03.
 
akrasiel23 said:
the next scene once he leaves instrumentality is to see Asuka by his side. (There is also some official art that shows both of them having reconcialiated with each other afterwards.)
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Them in the ruins of Tokyo-3? That wasn't official, IIRC. Anyway, Asuka rejects Instrumentality fastest; that's why she's immediately outside the tang sea. Something Rei can't at this point; arguably there is no Rei Ayanami at this point anymore. In that sense Septimus is absolutely right: Asuka "wins" by virtue of being the last one standing.

And don't forget that in Rebuild, Shinji does start to level Nerv's base after the whole deal with Bardiel is done, something he doesn't do once he knows Touji is inside of the Unit-03.
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I don't think that has something to do with who was inside the entry plug.
 
Dmol8 said:
Yeah we're like the Ancient Greeks with Irrational Numbers on that topic. We know that our current version of mathematics doesn't work when it comes to Imaginary Numbers, but we have yet to figure out how to fit the new type of numbers and our old number systems together.
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Uh... I've done gobs of work with Imaginaries... Its just another tool. You can't do electrical engineering, or harmonic oscillators without running into a whole passel of the little fellows. Usually wrapped up in a eiw​ where "w" is lowercase omega, for frequency.

They are a little snarly some times, especially when they get innvovled with trig, but they are consistent, well behaved terms. They just represent a mathematical concept that can't be represented by counting a set of blocks.
 
Susano said:
Them in the ruins of Tokyo-3? That wasn't official, IIRC. Anyway, Asuka rejects Instrumentality fastest; that's why she's immediately outside the tang sea. Something Rei can't at this point; arguably there is no Rei Ayanami at this point anymore. In that sense Septimus is absolutely right: Asuka "wins" by virtue of being the last one standing.
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Actually I meant the cover of EoE, which shows them both side by side and is supposed to be what happens after Shinji stopped chocking her.


I don't think that has something to do with who was inside the entry plug.
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In the original series he only rants at Gendo before he shuts him up, in Rebuild he has already done a lot of damage offscreen, though there is also the matter that from his point of view Asuka was already dead while Touji was alive albeit maimed.
 
Susano said:
Rei and Kaworu are kinda generally his spirit guides due to, well, their nature and role in Instrumentality.
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Given that by that point Kaworu's Adamite soul probably doesn't exist on any level of reality anymore, I'd say that's more Lilith combing his brain for "persons that won't make him freak out even more". He had already experience the "he's not human" freak-out, and hadn't just seen him die. Really, is there anyone else Lilith (not Rei, as she's probably not existing anymore either) could have picked that wouldn't have caused more screaming? His brain was probably broken enough to go "angel person during insanity? Makes sense to me!" Rei was another (if less so) "form he is comfortable with".
 
MoroseMobius said:
Given that by that point Kaworu's Adamite soul probably doesn't exist on any level of reality anymore, I'd say that's more Lilith combing his brain for "persons that won't make him freak out even more". He had already experience the "he's not human" freak-out, and hadn't just seen him die. Really, is there anyone else Lilith (not Rei, as she's probably not existing anymore either) could have picked that wouldn't have caused more screaming? His brain was probably broken enough to go "angel person during insanity? Makes sense to me!" Rei was another (if less so) "form he is comfortable with".
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But Kaworu is there. He's not just some illusion like the Hyuga's Misato or Maya's Ritsuko. I think GNR genuinely became GNK, instead of that just happening in Shinji's mind, and he's there together with Rei, as a separate entity from her, during Shinji's instrumentality. I think he's part of GNR. How that can be I have no idea - maybe Adam's soul returned to Adam's body after Kaworu's death? Maybe it stuck around in Terminal Dogma? But I do think GNR is Lilith's soul plus Adam's soul plus Lilith's body plus Adam's body. The fullest Forbidden Union possible.
 
Missed that post:
akrasiel23 said:
In the original series he only rants at Gendo before he shuts him up, in Rebuild he has already done a lot of damage offscreen, though there is also the matter that from his point of view Asuka was already dead while Touji was alive albeit maimed.
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That's the point, in the series he is stopped. And I don't think the difference is due to Asuka, but due to Rebuild being Rebuild. Shinji is a little more assertive and independent thinking in Rebuild, after all.

Besides, if we go by Rebuild, well...

"Give me back... Ayanami!"

;)
 
grimlock said:
Uh... I've done gobs of work with Imaginaries... Its just another tool. You can't do electrical engineering, or harmonic oscillators without running into a whole passel of the little fellows. Usually wrapped up in a eiw​ where "w" is lowercase omega, for frequency.

They are a little snarly some times, especially when they get innvovled with trig, but they are consistent, well behaved terms. They just represent a mathematical concept that can't be represented by counting a set of blocks.
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Have we surpassed the whole Complex Number thing where a number is written as X+Yi? Or are we still using the logic of Residual Division to get calculations with Imaginary Numbers done?

Susano said:
But Kaworu is there. He's not just some illusion like the Hyuga's Misato or Maya's Ritsuko. I think GNR genuinely became GNK, instead of that just happening in Shinji's mind, and he's there together with Rei, as a separate entity from her, during Shinji's instrumentality. I think he's part of GNR. How that can be I have no idea - maybe Adam's soul returned to Adam's body after Kaworu's death? Maybe it stuck around in Terminal Dogma? But I do think GNR is Lilith's soul plus Adam's soul plus Lilith's body plus Adam's body. The fullest Forbidden Union possible.
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Now back on topic for this thread: Yeah I'm with you on this one @Susano. I think that all three Reis, Kaworu and Yui were there with Shinji in the Instrumentality as his spiritual guides.
 
Dmol8 said:
Yeah we're like the Ancient Greeks with Irrational Numbers on that topic. We know that our current version of mathematics doesn't work when it comes to Imaginary Numbers, but we have yet to figure out how to fit the new type of numbers and our old number systems together.
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We have figured out how they fit: perpendicularly.

Dmol8 said:
Have we surpassed the whole Complex Number thing where a number is written as X+Yi?
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re^(ix)
 
epimetheus said:
Welcome to the asylum!
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Glad to be here! Do we have casual Tuesdays?

epimetheus said:
and when they pulled her body from the twisted, burning wreckage...
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The Englanderish said:
Also, how many times is this topic gonna loop round on this thread?
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From what I could gather while catching up, it will continue until the story finally ends... and then for another few months before somebody locks the thread.

And so, to continue the trend of looping topics, I'm betting on Kaworu getting a face full of the Hallelujah ray of sunshine. Arael might call Kaworu a traitor or something for having second thoughts about causing an impact event with Adam, only for the event to solidify Kaworu's resolve to NOT go through with "destiny". And maybe Arael might even self-destruct out of shame... leaving us with a usable Lance of Longinus, further derailing the story as we know it.

...it's as good a guess as any.
 
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