*steps into fire, calmly ignoring it*

The problem with K/R is that so far, as has been pointed out some times, Rei is all Tsun and little Dere. Which might change of course. We still have 3 chapters to go to the end, so maybe... 2 until Kaworu dies? If he dies at all.
 
I'm having bad thoughts about that snippet about Rei crying and " Are you going to shoot me too "
 
Is it just me, or are pretty much all of Asuka's "recent" memories not something that will hurt her should Arael still target her? If I'm remembering my reading correctly (might just watch the episode tomorrow), half of the hurt that she goes through is from recent memories. Shinji doesn't take any of her hints, her disastrous canon deployment against Zeruel, Kaji's constant rejections. Yeah, I guess you have Shinji not picking up on Jericho, but they got together four angels later anyway, and every angel since has been totally different. Even the memories of her mother's insanity and subsequent suicide are tempered by the knowledge that she could be saved. Same for Shinji, in a way. And for either of them, they have each other to cling onto to safeguard against a breakdown.

No, at this point, I think the only real target for a bird-delivered trauma bomb is Rei. Being forced to confront just what she is and how she endangers Shinji and Asuka just by being near them is the sort of thing that would spark the breakdown Strypgia has mentioned. It took me some time to put it together, but Rei feeling unsafe telling Shinji and Asuka what she is is affecting her more deeply than I first gave it credit. Rei is the sort of person whose poker face virtually never crumbles. Even when it does she is still reserved.

Kaworu has her freaking the fuck out. This is far far and away the most agitated Rei has been seen to date, so while for other characters who show emotion much more easily this could be a standard reaction, what we're seeing is the emotional equivalant of 2.0's "GIVE HER BACK." That's not a good sign.
 
My extended thoughts and opinions on TsundeReinbowTrout


I felt it would be good if I went into depth on my actual stance on the matter of Rei/Kaworu.

I'm largely neutral on the pairing, but I will freely admit to pushing it in this thread to counter the incest shippers. I can see why some people ship them, what with their similar natures and visual aesthetic, but it's not a ship I feel particularly inclined to. As to whether they will end up together in this fic, I think it could go either way. Obviously the two big issues are Rei's extreme denial and Kaworu's being an angel.

Rei's attitude can be seen in three lights, as far as I can tell:

  1. A case of 'doth protest too much' where she likes him but is in denial. Possibly to herself.
  2. Legitimately hating him.
  3. Going from 2 to 1. Initially hating him, but slowly being won over.
And Kaworu's situation seems to have four foreseeable outcomes I can think of as being likely:
  1. He gotta die. Gives in to the call.
  2. He (or somebody else) finds a way to hide him while optionally faking his death to fool SEELE. No dead 17th Angel means no successful instrumentality. Then shit goes down since SEELE doesn't find out till it's too late.
  3. He is able to resist the call - SEELE has to figure out some bullshit excuse to take him out.
  4. Killed in a mission. SEELE then gets the element of surprise if nobody else realises he was an Angel and shit goes baaaaaad. If they do realise, then continue as normal.
Obviously not dying is preferable, since it utterly ruins SEELE's plans but SEELE is pushy about such things, so it's unclear how possible this option actually is.

And now we hit a very big question. We know that Rei/Kaworu could result in a Forbidden Union, depending on how far they take things. As far as I know, this creates a godlike, ludicrously powerful being.
The question then becomes: 'What does this being do?'

What happens to everyone else? Are they tanged? Does the godlike being shoot off into space and ignore everything? Would it have the presence of mind to at least smear SEELE all over the floor before it does bugger off if it does?

We know what an Adam/Lilith combination does, but what about a Rei/Kaworu? Would it have the same result, or something else?

Can Rei/Kaworu somehow suppress the result in some form of Angelic-contraception?

Pertinent questions that I can't find much in the way of an answer to.
 
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I suspect Lilith's body must be involved in order for any tumbling down to happen. As long as Rei doesn't transcend her human form, everything should be perfectly all right.

That said, I don't see Kaworu/Rei happening, at least not for many years, and that only if Kaworu somehow sheds his Angelic nature and Rei gets over her desire to vaporize him with a positron cannon.
 
pushing it in this thread to counter the incest shippers.
Yeah well. I admit, maybe that is why I sort of dislike K/R here. But since Stryp has said this will end strictly A/S, it could be a future for Rei. Or, depending on Kaworu's fate, a potential pain. And in general - "pairing the spares" has always felt a bit... cynical and all too convenient to me.

A case of 'doth protest too much' where she likes him but is in denial. Possibly to herself.
Even then there should have been more indication of that. I mean, yes, as I've said, there's still at least two chapters time, but so far there is no indication, other than a superficial similarity to anime archetypes that quickly melts away under closer inspection (because Rei so far does lack the dere component). And even if that changes... two chapters would be a rather quick development...

As for your Kaworu futures:
He may not be able to just die on non-Angel related business. Didn't Stryp mention something or other about one shot of him showing cut marks on his wrists, indicating he had maybe tried suicide before already? So simply dying on a mission might be impossible. Also, since both SEELE and Gendo patiently wait for all 15 active angels to die... there must be something that prevents Instrumentality while there is still Adam-spawn around. And if SEELE can't start Instrumentality because Kaworu is around, well, they will know he is still around. Which makes hiding that fact impossible (though of course one can still hide him, physically).

Plus, the biggest question would always be how to make him resist/getting rid of the Call. As long as that isn't solved, anything else, even SEELE, are irrelevant in this regard.

And now we hit a very big question. We know that Rei/Kaworu could result in a Forbidden Union, depending on how far they take things. As far as I know, this creates a godlike, ludicrously powerful being.
Of course, we might legitimately ask what is meant with "Union" here. Seeing how in NGE beings merge or consume each other parts... "union" may be much more literal here than "sex". And I doubt Rei and Kaworu can merge without some ritualistic thingy as seen in EoE... plus what the hell, I don't want to see Rei getting fused into some sort of uber-being!

And the "being" of such an "union" simply meaning a child conceived the old fashioned way - that sounds a bit too mundane to me, considering what we're talking about, and hey, who knows if Nephilim pregnancy is even a thing.

...which incidentally would be another counter to your complaints about "incest". Just saying. :p
 
I have to admit, this description of Arael made me laugh.
I came reeeal close to writing "birb" instead but thought it would have made too little sense.
Nice, insightful post, but you forget that one of the four pilots is currently full of angst.
...Well, yes, that's why I said that Rei is the obvious target. This will affect Shinji and Asuka, that someone they love deeply is in a tremendous amount of pain, but the point I was trying to make is that neither Shinji nor Asuka would have the sort of breakdown Asuka had in canon and that Strypgia's said is in store for Rei*. Rei is on the cusp right now and the next angel to appear is probably the most infamous example in anime of making a bad situation worse.

*: I keep saying you said this, but please let me know if I hallucinated this. I don't wanna put words in your mouth.
 
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Even then there should have been more indication of that. I mean, yes, as I've said, there's still at least two chapters time, but so far there is no indication, other than a superficial similarity to anime archetypes that quickly melts away under closer inspection (because Rei so far does lack the dere component). And even if that changes... two chapters would be a rather quick development...
I get the feeling that Rei's dere is starting to come out in regards to Kaworu. Maybe not romantic dere, but I feel like she's starting to open up to him more as she starts understanding his position and feelings and all the tsun is mostly a combination of instinctual hatred for what he is and scapegoating for her frustrations in other things.
 
There are choice subjects for all three of them for Arael to dig up (either Shinji or Asuka: forcing them to confront their fear of losing each other or Rei, lingering insecurity about deserving the other; Asuka specifically: her worries over Kyoko's split soul), but I agree that Rei is the most vulnerable right now since she feels that it's a real possibility for Shinji and Asuka to end up hating her for keeping secrets, even out of concern for their well-being.
 
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And even if that changes... two chapters would be a rather quick development...
These chapters are getting very long tho. In any case, there's no reason for them to necessarily hook up till afterwards - I'm pretty sure Stryp mentioned an epilogue. Tbh tho, I wouldn't be that bothered if they didn't since I've only been fanning the ship flames in direct counter to incest.

Plus, the biggest question would always be how to make him resist/getting rid of the Call. As long as that isn't solved, anything else, even SEELE, are irrelevant in this regard.
Does Rei know it's Lilith in the basement, and not Adam? Because if so, some note comparison with Kaworu would pretty quickly result in him finding that out. And that would pretty definitely get him to keep resisting.

plus what the hell, I don't want to see Rei getting fused into some sort of uber-being!
Neither do I, but we don't get to decide that - Stryp's writing. In any case, I've got things planned for my fics that I don't want as such, but think will make for a better tale.

I certainly don't want [REDACTED] to get [REDACTED] by [REDACTED] because [REDACTED] is actually [REDACTED], but I think it will be an important part of MOTP that should be done for purposes of story. So it's gonna happen.
 
since I've only been fanning the ship flames in direct counter to incest.
Do you want naval warfare? Because that is how you're getting naval warfare. :p

Does Rei know it's Lilith in the basement, and not Adam? Because if so, some note comparison with Kaworu would pretty quickly result in him finding that out. And that would pretty definitely get him to keep resisting.
Pretty sure Rei was raving about Lilith's body (more specifically not having legs) while she was in the throes of the Ritsuko special overdose.
Yeah, but who knows if she even consciously remembers any of that. My take was she felt Lilith's body.

She might know something, but if she can put the puzzle pieces together, or for that matter find out that Kaworu doesn't know, that is another question.

Neither do I, but we don't get to decide that - Stryp's writing. In any case, I've got things planned for my fics that I don't want as such, but think will make for a better tale.
Look how much Stryp has to resist turning this into an OT3 fic. Somehow I can't see him giving a happy ending to Shinji and Asuka and discarding Rei ;)

If he does, I may have to sharpen my knives, of course :p

More seriously, Stryp can indeed do as he likes, but I would prefer if Rei keeps her individuality, and I'm reasonably sure she will.
 
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My guess is that Rei and Kaworu end up going all forbidden union on purpose in order to combat SEELE and Gendo - I don't see any other way the protagonists can possibly fight them. Though it becomes a lot more possible with Ritsuko on board...
 
..., but I agree that Rei is the most vulnerable right now since she feels that it's a real possibility for Shinji and Asuka to end up hating her for keeping secrets, even out of concern for their well-being.

Pretty sure Rei was raving about Lilith's body (more specifically not having legs) while she was in the throes of the Ritsuko special overdose.

Does Rei know it's Lilith in the basement, and not Adam?
From the scene where the drugged Rei is raving about Lilith and the scene in the music room, It appears that Rei is Lilith, or at least is strongly channeling her. If Areal targets Rei, then she is targeting Lilith, which is a way different thing from harassing a mere lilim. If the little birdie ends up in Lilith's mind, or if Lilith intervenes when Areal attacks Rei, I fear (meaning 'joyfully hope') it would not be good for her.
 
To be fair, Asuka very nearly soloed SEELE's invasion in EoE. She was an S2​ organ or replacement umbilical cable away from singlehandedly fending off literally the entire invasion force. Adding Shinji to that mix really solidifies their chances. I mean, seriously. Change nothing else in EoE but getting Shinji topside with Unit-01 before Unit-02 goes down and you have a very very different movie.

This actually reminds me of something that bugged me about EoE. So the MP series has imitation Lances, right? But they don't start out as Lances. So why does the sword-thing hit Unit-02's AT Field, hang there for a few seconds, transform, AND THEN accelerate until it plants itself in Asuka's face? The MP evas don't have AT Fields, so they couldn't have telekinetically pushed it forward. I could have dealt with a Lance itself slowing down before speeding up, but should it have not stopped entirely before it transformed?
 
This actually reminds me of something that bugged me about EoE. So the MP series has imitation Lances, right? But they don't start out as Lances. So why does the sword-thing hit Unit-02's AT Field, hang there for a few seconds, transform, AND THEN accelerate until it plants itself in Asuka's face? The MP evas don't have AT Fields, so they couldn't have telekinetically pushed it forward. I could have dealt with a Lance itself slowing down before speeding up, but should it have not stopped entirely before it transformed?
Better question is why did Asuka stand there like a muggins and wait to get stabbed. Admittedly wouldn't have saved her in the end... but still.
 
I'm basically taking the role of Elliot Carver:
Ah the guy with the German newspaper whose name makes no actual sense in German.

But okay. It is on then.

So what's a "stealth ship" in this context? The relationship that no-one sees coming
Asuka/Shinji/Rei, indeed. :p

Well, she is. Sorta. Kinda. She has her soul, after all. Or at least part of it.
 
To be fair, Asuka very nearly soloed SEELE's invasion in EoE. She was an S2 organ or replacement umbilical cable away from singlehandedly fending off literally the entire invasion force.

I'm actually of the opinion that the Eva Series went easy on her, knowing that she was boned the moment she ran out of power and that they could just regen whatever damage was inflicted on them. Doesn't change the fact that Asuka showed all the skills that she (for some reason) never showed in the series and that she went down in a blaze of glory, of course.
 
To be fair, Asuka very nearly soloed SEELE's invasion in EoE. She was an S2​ organ or replacement umbilical cable away from singlehandedly fending off literally the entire invasion force.
Really? What about MP Series regeneration? Those buggers can simply fight on and on and on.... they can outlast her.

Plus, if you send EVA-01 up, all you're doing is delivering their preferred vessel of instrumentality right to SEELE. That is why SEELE and Gendo are so difficult to beat. Yeah, conventional forces can be defeated, no doubt. But how do you ensure, really make sure, that there is never an Adam/Adam or Adam/Lilith union? Especially since you can't seem to kill the seeds of life. All that happened to Adam in the Second Impact was becoming a larva of sorts. And sure, dormant seeds of life are probably easier to handle, but the last time that happened it did result in an Impact.

Weapons aren't enough. You really do need some kinda metaphysical bullshit. Actually, Rei's "contigency plan" in Septimus' quest (initiate *her* Third Impact so as to preempt SEELE's) is probably not a bad idea. And that kinda did happen in canon, it's just that the person she gave control over instrumentality was... not in the best state of mind at that point. If, say, she gives control to Shinji and Asuka here, and the two are happy together and stable... you could maybe get an effect-less or nearly effect-less Third Impact.

Thus, despite disagreeing with you I also disagree with @Angle . "Forbidden union" might not be necessary. Rei (or alternatively EVA-01...) is the key.

But they don't start out as Lances. So why does the sword-thing hit Unit-02's AT Field, hang there for a few seconds, transform, AND THEN accelerate until it plants itself in Asuka's face?
Lance mechanics. Lance/AT-Field interaction, which includes retention of momentum. Something like that, probably.

Better question is why did Asuka stand there like a muggins and wait to get stabbed. Admittedly wouldn't have saved her in the end... but still.
She was shocked to see an AT Field breaking Lance suddenly appearing.

After all she has trained nearly her whole life in EVAs. You develop some very firm instincts that way. Like "don't worry what's behind the AT Field, the field is unbreachable". Have those instincts be violated... yeah I can see a five second shock as reaction.
 
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