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Advice and Trust [NGE]

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Strypgia said:
And while we know that the Children's mental state is pivotally important, do you think that's the sort of thing that SEELE and Gendo are really worried about fencing over?
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Gendo?, maybe if it means Rei starts to deviate from the scenario due to her interactions with others; SEELE?, depends on how paranoid they are about the power of the Units 01 and 02, though that would just mean they might try to make more Eva series to ensure their victory.
 
The thing is, Gendo and SEELE don't consider the mental states of their pilots to be important. They certainly didn't care at the high point of canon, and there is no evidence that there was any change in their behaviour when the pilots started to suffer mental breakdowns. It was completely irrelevant to them all of this time. Trivial, petty details. SEELE has no time to pay attention to such little things when they're planning to end the world and become gods.

I mean, sure, the audience knows that their mental state is vitally important, but that's leading to a bit of bias here. The Children are the main characters of the show, but in-universe no one would know that. To the secret masters of world, they're just expendable pawns to further things along - and there's also the fact that they're just a bunch of teenagers; "They're not important in the overall scheme of things", "what can a bunch of children do against us anyway", "They can be replaced if they break".

They did have the replacement candidates and the dummy system as backups. Oh, and remember the complete lack of fucks Gendo gave when he activated the dummy system and Shinji went on his tantrum?

Even with Rei, who was pivotal to Gendo's plans, Gendo never really cared about her. In canon, though Rei died and should have lost a good deal of her memories, and despite the fact that she should have been indoctrinated for most of her existence to let Gendo use her to end the world when the time came, she ended up giving control of Instrumentality to Shinji instead. She was literally neglected enough to rebel against the entire point of her existence (partially, because she still triggered Instrumentality)
 
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OK since people are touching upon the topic of Rei and her clones I think I'll add my two cents to how I think the whole thing works.

There are three components to a Rei:

One is the mixture of Yui Ikari's and Lilith's genetic material that makes her body.

The second is Lilith's Undersoul. Which is currently split between Rei I in Unit 00 and Rei II that has a physical form. Just to give you an idea of how much pain the two Reis are in a trans-person who hasn't transitioned has a splintered Undersoul because it doesn't fully fit in their body (and unlike the Oversoul science can take some measurements of the Undersoul, when scientists bother to since they are very annoyed with the concept). Both Rei's have big chunks of their Undersoul torn out so that is a worse pain (Rei I had the complete Undersoul before she was killed, but after she was stuffed into Unit 00 she lost a piece that was then stuffed into Rei II as she was made). Lilith's Oversoul is in every human being on the planet. Which is why she doesn't care about what they do to her body since the Oversoul is what is called the self by most people. That is how the Instrumentality was able to collect every soul on the planet and why it was important to erode the Ego barrier of the pilot of Unit 01. It was the test case to eroding the Ego barrier of all of humanity so that Lilith's Oversoul could be made whole again. Of course since Shinji decided to go back that stopped the Instrumentality and left everyone half-way.

So that raises the question of where does Rei's Oversoul come from? Well the old episode 25 has a scene where her soul is called synthetic and that scene is referenced in a blink and you miss it moment in EoE after Gendo gets the Liu Kang MK2 fatality. So here's is my guess: Rei's Oversoul was made from a blank template made from the copy of Naoko Akagi's Oversoul she uploaded into the MAGI. Now since there are three Reis by the end of the show and all three are shown together yet separate in that blink and you miss it scene in EoE and since the MP EVAs are shown inserting the Dummy Plugs and then are later shown blooming with faces of Rei after the Instrumentality starts my guess is that each Rei is a separate person and that includes the Reis in the dummy plugs.

Now here is the interesting question: Since the only Lilim EVA is Unit 01 and the Evas are made from Adamite material (Unit 00 and series production from the original Adam that fell on Antarctica and the MP EVAs from Shamshel's remains) whose Undersoul do the Dummy Plugs have: Shamshiel's or Lilith's or do they even have an Undersoul? We know that Kaworu has Adam's Undersoul and probably has a synthetic Oversoul made from a blank template of the German MAGI, but since the Dummy Plug system only requires memories of a pilot (and they used Rei since she was already doing regular uploads to make sure a Rei lived to the Instrumentality) does it even have an Undersoul of its own?
 
Arcus2611 said:
The thing is, Gendo and SEELE don't consider the mental states of their pilots to be important. They certainly didn't care at the high point of canon, and there is no evidence that there was any change in their behaviour when the pilots started to suffer mental breakdowns. It was completely irrelevant to them all of this time. Trivial, petty details. SEELE has no time to pay attention to such little things when they're planning to end the world and become gods.

I mean, sure, the audience knows that their mental state is vitally important, but that's leading to a bit of bias here. The Children are the main characters of the show, but in-universe no one would know that. To the secret masters of world, they're just expendable pawns to further things along - and there's also the fact that they're just a bunch of teenagers; "They're not important in the overall scheme of things", "what can a bunch of children do against us anyway", "They can be replaced if they break".

They did have the replacement candidates and the dummy system as backups. Oh, and remember the complete lack of fucks Gendo gave when he activated the dummy system and Shinji went on his tantrum?

Even with Rei, who was pivotal to Gendo's plans, Gendo never really cared about her. In canon, though Rei died and should have lost a good deal of her memories, and despite the fact that she should have been indoctrinated for most of her existence to let Gendo use her to end the world when the time came, she ended up giving control of Instrumentality to Shinji instead. She was literally neglected enough to rebel against the entire point of her existence (partially, because she still triggered Instrumentality)
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I think part of the reason Rei III rebelled against Gendo was, ironically, due to Kaworu's previous intervention.

Now, we know in canon that the only interaction that they have is him saying they are both the same, yet this little detail can mean much more if you put in hindsight that he is the strongest of the Angels, so therefore he is telling her she is as strong as him; but more importantly, he is the angel of Free Will, and like him, Rei also possesses that free will.
 
Dmol8 said:
The second is Lilith's Undersoul. Which is currently split between Rei I in Unit 00 and Rei II that has a physical form. Just to give you an idea of how much pain the two Reis are in a trans-person who hasn't transitioned has a splintered Undersoul because it doesn't fully fit in their body (and unlike the Oversoul science can take some measurements of the Undersoul, when scientists bother to since they are very annoyed with the concept).
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Where do you get this information from? Is it in one of the supporting materials for NGE, or something?
 
Strypgia said:
SEELE's Dummy Plugs were made from copies of Kaworu, not Rei.
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Thanks man. Then the Undersoul (if there at all) is definitely Adam's in those Dummy Plugs. So what are you going to do with the two Reis in the Dummy Plugs that were sent against Zeruel?
 
Dmol8 said:
Thanks man. Then the Undersoul (if there at all) is definitely Adam's in those Dummy Plugs. So what are you going to do with the two Reis in the Dummy Plugs that were sent against Zeruel?
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You have to remember that they are not Reis, per se; they are crude digital representations of Rei herself, slapped onto a semi-sentient thought matrix.
 
Angle said:
Where do you get this information from? Is it in one of the supporting materials for NGE, or something?
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No its in the Science Fiction Jargon that is used in episodes 25 and 26. Some of it is used also in EoE, but less. That's why both endings of the series make so little sense to people. Anno fully switched to the Jargon he was using to describe the Instrumentality and he didn't bother to give more than a basic explanation of what he is talking about. See Evangelion isn't just a deconstruction of a Super Robot story lines up to that point. It is also a deconstruction of Clark/Asimov type of science fiction that was popular when Anno was growing up and had an influence on the man.

Pay attention to the radio broadcasts throughout the episodes. They talk about the state of the world in general, but they also talk about a gap between the generations and they subtextually compare the post 2nd Impact Japan to the post 2nd World War Japan. Anno is a Japanese equivalent to a Baby Boomer and he had to grow up hearing those kinds of social conflicts in his environment. Shinji and the other teens represent that generation. Misato and Ritsuko represent the Japanese equivalent of the Silent Generation with Gendo and maybe Fuyutsuki belonging to the Japanese equivalent of the Greatest Generation.

See the same way Watchmen is a different work if viewed independently of the work it satirizes and deconstructs, so is Evangelion a different work if viewed on its own then it is if you view it as a deconstruction of a lot of science fiction tropes Anno had learned of trough his reading. Just by asking which science fiction tropes Eva deconstructs you can get an idea of what sort of sci-fi Anno was reading that went into making Eva.
 
Is Tabris the strongest angel? I only ever saw the episode once, maybe 15 years ago, and I know that he had the strongest AT Field, but I don't remember the exact details of the fight short of him hijacking Unit-02 and then giving up once he reached Lilith. Was Shinji completely powerless against him until he let himself be killed/Rei-III intervened?
 
Lord of Bays said:
Is Tabris the strongest angel? I only ever saw the episode once, maybe 15 years ago, and I know that he had the strongest AT Field, but I don't remember the exact details of the fight short of him hijacking Unit-02 and then giving up once he reached Lilith. Was Shinji completely powerless against him until he let himself be killed/Rei-III intervened?
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There is no strongest in the sense you mean; all the Angels were specialised in some way:
  • Sachiel, Shamshel, Rhamiel and Israfel tested their ground defences
  • Gaghiel/Glaghaliel tried the approach by sea
  • Matariel, Iruel and for some definition of the word Armisael tried infiltration
  • We don't know what Sandalphon was going to specialise in, but maybe he was a test of their ability to adapt?
  • Sahaquiel tried to solve the mystery of the moving object meeting the immovable
  • Zeruel came with high base stats but low magical defence
  • Leliel and Arael were trying to understand the enemy
  • Now, Tabbris was an out-of-context problem, but he was partly man-made
For all the good this list does though, there is variance; and some Angels even fit multiple categories.

tl;dr:
Kaworu's AT Field was good at blocking electronic communications; we don't know much else.
 
maes said:
Might it cross Reis' mind to correct that situation, as a 'just in case/organ bank'? Asukas' birthday is coming up and what better gift than more of yourself? :p
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REI: Ta-da! Fifteen backup clones and an Asukaquarium, the gift that keeps on giving!

ASUKA: But they- they're all nak- *turns and slaps Shinji*

SHINJI: I didn't say anything!

ASUKA: You were thinking it, pervert.
 
akrasiel23 said:
I think part of the reason Rei III rebelled against Gendo was, ironically, due to Kaworu's previous intervention.

Now, we know in canon that the only interaction that they have is him saying they are both the same, yet this little detail can mean much more if you put in hindsight that he is the strongest of the Angels, so therefore he is telling her she is as strong as him; but more importantly, he is the angel of Free Will, and like him, Rei also possesses that free will.
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I have to agree. He looks at her and then talks about choice. In my mind, between that and his comments to her about them being similar, he is implying he knows she will be in a similar position soon too and she will also have a choice to make.
 
Strypgia said:
And... hm... Another idea! Kaji was rather obviously stuck in the elevator with Misato when SEELE staged that little blackout before and during Matarael's attack, so he obviously isn't the only mole SEELE had in NERV. Someone had to give the JSSDF the access codes that let them slip their ninjas in the security gates so easily, for example. So there's other SEELE operatives about, who might stumble across things people don't want known...
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Well, he could have. Time-delayed acid bomb on the power routers, or whatever. That he had an alibi at the time doesn't necessarily absolve him of suspicion.
 
Aleph said:
Well, he could have. Time-delayed acid bomb on the power routers, or whatever. That he had an alibi at the time doesn't necessarily absolve him of suspicion.
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He probably didn't mean for it to happen during an Angel attack, imagine the guilt when he finds out the girl who he raised since she was about 6 or 7 and her friends nearly got killed while they were blundering around in the dark. Hmph, that probably didn't help when it came to avoiding his fate...
 
Aleph said:
Well, he could have. Time-delayed acid bomb on the power routers, or whatever. That he had an alibi at the time doesn't necessarily absolve him of suspicion.
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Possible, but I don't think it likely, since he probably wouldn't have set himself up to be stuck in the elevator when it hit, let alone with his ex-girlfriend.
greensun said:
He probably didn't mean for it to happen during an Angel attack, imagine the guilt when he finds out the girl who he raised since she was about 6 or 7 and her friends nearly got killed while they were blundering around in the dark. Hmph, that probably didn't help when it came to avoiding his fate...
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Kaji hasn't been Asuka's guardian that long. When she and Misato meet on the deck of the Over The Rainbow there dialog makes it clear that up until recently Misato was her guardian. There was a gap or something, since Misato and Kaji hadn't met in a long time, though.
 
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