No. I've been consistently arguing that we shouldn't hammer on their sensitivities and instead try to change the subject at the conference to something we can find some agreement on (or rather, neutral intermediary can)

That is not bowing down. That is the most basic and primitive 'how to diplomacy'.

Another, slightly more advanced form of diplomacy is empathy, trying to put yourself in the other parties' shoes and understand why they think they're right. If you can't do that, you're also a terrible diplomat.

And lastly, diplomacy is the art of the compromise. You have to interrogate your own position so you know what you can compromise on and what you can't. Importantly, it's very easy to get too attached to means, not to end, so you need to be particularly hard on yourself when you're adamant that there is only one way, and other methods can't work.
This is trying to be diplomatic with the guys who want to murder us and send us to super hell for disagreeing with them there comes a point where you have to have enough self respect to not worry about minorly offending the people who are again trying to murder you and send you to super hell. I will read your response should you have one however i feel this conversation has gone on long enough and so this shall be my final response.
 
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Excited to see what kind of opportunities we'll see from this.

Oh yeah @Mechanis , did we get any progress on the Tzeentch Curse? Or is it another long term Seer project and we'll only get a short update at the next turn?
 
Why? Nothing about the Curses seems to require it. We might be able to make ourselves more powerful if we replace the missing parts, but why is it necessary?

This seems to be the same logic that lead the Dark Muses to say that they weren't powerful enough so they could soul forge themselves into gods. Where does it end?

The same reason it's generally a good idea to patch a hole in a boat, or replace a rusted piece of metal supporting something heavy. I suppose that it is true that you don't have to, it's not something that on its own will kill you, but there's literally no benefit to leaving it like that. Patch it over and move on.
 
Basically, When you appraoch fighting a Craftworld, You should conduct yourself Less like you are attacking a Large ship, Who you can reasonably expect to shoot until it stops moving, But instead treat it as a Fortress planet that Is Moving to engage, In such a case Your focus would be on destroying Defensive gun emplacements and keeping your fleet close enough the Craft worlds own bulk stops it from simply rotating and Bringing MORE Guns on You, And possibly to stop to from bringing a who Knows what Craftworld sized gun to bear on you, analogous to Planetary Anti-Orbital fortresses, Or landing forces and trying to Use both "Ground" and Orbital assaults to clear those Gun emplacements.

After that, Your plans can be summed up as, Have Multiple of the right kind of Exterminatus grade weapons (If the eldar can't contain the Life eater virus, I will eat My Brigandine Helmet) , Have enough Ships of high enough tonnage you CAN shoot the craft world to bits without spending literal Months and or years doing so which would be plenty of time for the eldar inside to flee, Or send a messenger for aid at which Point ANOTHER fleet of eldar shows up, Or land Ground forces and Reenact Hive warfare, Except its hundreds of Hives layered on each other.

... Or be incredibly Overpowered and Hopped Up on Warp cocaine, Like belakor.

Hence why the Eldar are a Dieing race instead of extinct, Despite existing in 40k.
 
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Basically, When you appraoch fighting a Craftworld, You should conduct yourself Less like you are attacking a Large ship, Who you can reasonably expect to shoot until it stops moving, But instead treat it as a Fortress planet that Is Moving to engage, In such a case Your focus would be on destroying Defensive gun emplacements and keeping your fleet close enough the Craft worlds own bulk stops it from simply rotating and Bringing MORE Guns on You, analogous to Planetary Anti-Orbital fortresses, Or landing forces and trying to Use both "Ground" and Orbital assaults to clear those Gun emplacements.

After that, Your plans can be summed up as, Have Multiple of the right kind of Exterminatus grade weapons (If the eldar can't contain the Life eater virus, I will eat My Brigandine Helmet) , Have enough Ships of high enough tonnage you CAN shoot the craft world to bits without spending literal Months and or years doing so which would be plenty of time for the eldar inside to flee, Or send a messenger for aid at which Point ANOTHER fleet of eldar shows up, Or land Ground forces and Reenact Hive warfare, Except its hundreds of Hives layered on each other.

... Or be incredibly Overpowered and Hopped Up of Warp cocaine, Like belakor.

Hence why the Eldar are a Dieing race instead of extinct, Despite existing in 40k.

A reminder, that there was a battle where a Chaos Lord snuck a cruiser into striking distance with Iyanden and fired 36 Cyclonic Torpedoes at it. (Let's just dismiss Chaos having 36 exterminatus grade torpedoes on a single cruiser as Stupid Chaos Plot Magic)

35 were intercepted, only one actually connected, it wrecked the part of the Craftworld it hit, but it was ultimately just a gut punch rather than a sucking chest wound--and a single one of these is enough to torch the atmosphere of a normal world and burn everything on its surface to ashes.
 
again this is trying to be diplomatic with the guys who want to murder us and send us to super hell for disagreeing with them there comes a point where you have to have enough self respect to not worry about minorly offending the people who are again trying to murder you and send you to super hell. i will read your response should you have one however i feel this conversation has gone on long enough and so this shall be my final response.

Yes. That's what diplomacy is, particularly multi-lateral diplomacy. You have to sit down with people you think are monsters and in other circumstances would happily murder you in the hope of finding the limited things you can agree to work

I mean, right now in the real world there are active multi-lateral forums where diplomats from countries who fighting horrendous wars are sitting down together and trying to hash out agreements in the very limited points of agreement they can find.

They have to worry about the messages they send in that context and they have to compartmentalise, to focus on the issue at hand and not let other people know extra extraneous issues intrude, no matter how important they are outside the conference.

The same reason it's generally a good idea to patch a hole in a boat, or replace a rusted piece of metal supporting something heavy. I suppose that it is true that you don't have to, it's not something that on its own will kill you, but there's literally no benefit to leaving it like that. Patch it over and move on.

Amusingly; tou can take that metaphor and saying we're doing the exact opposite. The Parhs are all about patching the holes and hoping they'll make it back to port. We want to scrap the boat and build a new one.

I'm not advertising for the Paths here. Just saying that with what we've learned they make a lot more long term sense than they did before. A short term stopgap makes a lot more sense when you can plausibly point to a long term more strategic solution.
 
Amusingly; tou can take that metaphor and saying we're doing the exact opposite. The Parhs are all about patching the holes and hoping they'll make it back to port. We want to scrap the boat and build a new one.

I'm not advertising for the Paths here. Just saying that with what we've learned they make a lot more long term sense than they did before. A short term stopgap makes a lot more sense when you can plausibly point to a long term more strategic solution.

The Paths do nothing about the psychic hole left in Eldar souls by dead gods, they only address the Curse of Slaanesh.
 
A reminder, that there was a battle where a Chaos Lord snuck a cruiser into striking distance with Iyanden and fired 36 Cyclonic Torpedoes at it. (Let's just dismiss Chaos having 36 exterminatus grade torpedoes on a single cruiser as Stupid Chaos Plot Magic)

35 were intercepted, only one actually connected, it wrecked the part of the Craftworld it hit, but it was ultimately just a gut punch rather than a sucking chest wound--and a single one of these is enough to torch the atmosphere of a normal world and burn everything on its surface to ashes.

Hmm, Given the Spindly Shape of Eldar Craftworlds, I wonder if Two-stage Cyclonics torpedo's would Be a sure kill.

On one hand its noted that Two stage cyclonic torpedo's, While incredibly Rare, Have been used with seeming success on Necron Tomb worlds. On the OTHER hand, The cyclonic torpedo's Own Method of operation might work agaist it when used on a Craft world. Unless fired Into the main Body, A calibrated juuust right, The Two stage cyclonics own Burrowing phase Might lead to a through and through if it hits a thin enough part of the craft world. Horrible for whoever was In that spindly bit, But if the cyclonic torpedo goes off Near the hull after going through and through, That probably doesn't kill a craft world.

A perfect shot with a Two-stage cyclonic torpedo probably kills even the biggest craft worlds, But if its not a perfect shot, The Craftworlds spindly nature might cause a Through and through, Or even just a detonation in a spot that doesn't kill the main body.
 
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I really wish we'd brought both of the Meros people, because if we're counting controversy, magnifying the influence of our possibly most important delegate would probably have helped.

But then again, there was very little analysis of what the combination of options for the winning plan (or any of the runners up) meant as a whole.

To the degree to which there was any discussion of the winning plan at all it focused on individual choices, not the combination.

I suppose we'll find out if that matters.

A reminder, that there was a battle where a Chaos Lord snuck a cruiser into striking distance with Iyanden and fired 36 Cyclonic Torpedoes at it. (Let's just dismiss Chaos having 36 exterminatus grade torpedoes on a single cruiser as Stupid Chaos Plot Magic)

It's possible; it's just usually stupid, because the torpedoes cost so much. If you have the right blessings or precog it could be an effective tactic.

I think there are other examples of relatively light Inquisition vessels deploying Exterminatus torpedoes. That's the advantage of torpedoes, they may cost a lot but they allow you to punch up a long way.

The Paths do nothing about the psychic hole left in Eldar souls by dead gods, they only address the Curse of Slaanesh.

Yes. But that's a really secondary problem compared to the three Curses. The Eldar may be less powerful than when they were full of divine blessings after they've broken the Curses, but it's quite reasonable to say that this problem can be tabled until then. And it's also quite reasonable to believe that if the Eldar can break the Curses, they'll also find a miraculous way of recovering their lost power some other way.

This is all about the perceptions of a bunch of people who either think they're temporarily embarrassed demigods or would really like to believe that.
 
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Amusingly; tou can take that metaphor and saying we're doing the exact opposite. The Parhs are all about patching the holes and hoping they'll make it back to port. We want to scrap the boat and build a new one.
The paths are the equivalent of bailing water out of a broken, half burning boat while claiming it fixes everything. We want to actually fix the hole, put out the fires, and replace the engine so we can get out of shark infested waters rather than wallow in self-pity and denial.
 
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Aeldmoot retinue Vote count
Adhoc vote count started by Mechanis on Jul 17, 2024 at 8:06 PM, finished with 681 posts and 69 votes.

  • [X] Plan: United Front
    -[x] Irsfeial, Emissary of the Ishari
    -[X] Dragonlord Amar-Ithil of Quilan
    -[x] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
    -[x] Yranne Kal, the Mothwing Lord of Arach-Qin
    -[x] Forgemaster Xenael Wraev of Zahr-Tann
    -[x] Elite Bodyguards
    -[x] Special Bodyguards
    -[x] Weight: Escort Heavy
    -[x] Configuration: Battleship Task Group
    -[X] Special: The Hidden Fang
    [X] Plan Moderation
    -[x] Irsfeial, Emissary of the Ishari
    -[X] Dragonlord Amar-Ithil of Quilan
    -[x] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
    -[x] Yranne Kal, the Mothwing Lord of Arach-Qin
    -[x] Forgemaster Xenael Wraev of Zahr-Tann
    -[X] Regular Bodyguards
    -[x] Special Bodyguards
    -[x] Weight: Escort Heavy
    -[x] Configuration: Battleship Task Group
    -[X] Special: The Hidden Fang
    [X] The More the Merrier - Reconciliation
    [x] The More the Merrier - Division
    -[x] His Sons
    -[X] Dragonlord Amar-Ithil of Quilan
    -[x] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
    -[x] Seer Araeniel of Meros
    -[x] Irsfeial, Emissary of the Ishari
    -[x] Yranne Kal, the Mothwing Lord of Arach-Qin
    -[x] Forgemaster Xenael Wraev of Zahr-Tann
    -[x] Special Bodyguards
    -[x] Elite Bodyguards
    --[x] Reduce this
    -[x] Weight: Escort Heavy
    - [x] Configuration: Cruiser Squadron
    -[x] Special: The Serpent of the Stars
    [X] Plan: Allies and Bling
    -[x] Irsfeial, Emissary of the Ishari
    -[x] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
    -[x] Seer Araeniel of Meros
    -[x] Zevrin Kal, Blademaster of Arach-Qin
    -[X] Faelin Wraev of Zahr-Tann
    -[x] Elite Bodyguards
    -[x] Special Bodyguards
    -[x] Weight: Escort Heavy
    - [x] Configuration: Cruiser Squadron
    [X] The More the Merrier - Reconciliation
    -[x] His Sons
    -[X] Dragonlord Amar-Ithil of Quilan
    -[x] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
    -[x] Seer Araeniel of Meros
    -[x] Yranne Kal, the Mothwing Lord of Arach-Qin
    -[x] Forgemaster Xenael Wraev of Zahr-Tann
    -[x] Special Bodyguards
    -[x] Elite Bodyguards
    --[x] Reduce this
    -[x] Weight: Escort Heavy
    - [x] Configuration: Cruiser Squadron
    -[x] Special: The Serpent of the Stars
    [x] The More the Merrier - Division
    [X] The More the Merrier - Reconciliation BTG
    -[x] His Sons
    -[X] Dragonlord Amar-Ithil of Quilan
    -[x] Draylin of the True Sight, Seerlord of Meros
    -[x] Seer Araeniel of Meros
    -[x] Yranne Kal, the Mothwing Lord of Arach-Qin
    -[x] Forgemaster Xenael Wraev of Zahr-Tann
    -[x] Special Bodyguards
    -[x] Elite Bodyguards
    --[x] Reduce this
    -[x] Weight: Escort Heavy
    -[x] Configuration: Battleship Task Group
    -[x] Special: The Serpent of the Stars
 
The paths are the equivalent of bailing water out of a broken, half burning boat while claiming it fixes everything. We want to actually fix the hole, put out the fires, and replace the engine so we can actually get out of shark infested waters rather than wallow in self-pity and denial.

Not necessarily at all. If you're Biel Tann next turn, and you think you can kill Kairos, rescue Isha, and proclaim a new and glorious age of Isha ruling the New Phoenix Court, then you may be quite happy to admit that being on the Parhs is horrible, but that it's just a necessary sacrifice on the way to glorious victory.

The Craftworld Eldar in canon were under no illusions about how absolutely appalling the Paths were, which is why they were happy for people to become Corsairs and Rangers for a bit of light relief from the horror even though it meant those people's souls would drain away, and even to allow their children to be Dark Eldar for a while before taking up a Path again. As long as they came back.

Everyone hated the Paths. They knew they weren't fine. They just thought it was the best of a very bad job given the options available .

How much easier would that be if they have realistic hope that the Paths actually are just a temporary expedient.
 
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Mechanis let's ask this to put something to bed, we are doing soul forging on ourselves yes? We picked it up at Creation and we are going to do it in this quest given that correct?
 
Mechanis let's ask this to put something to bed, we are doing soul forging on ourselves yes? We picked it up at Creation and we are going to do it in this quest given that correct?
yes, unless you die first. which doesn't look likely, becuase most of the stuff that could be a serious threat in that department is either various flavors of "not showing up for the better part of a millennia at minimum" or "Very Far Away." or both. Usually both. anyway.
 
989.M29 | Special Event: The Aeldmoot | Pre-meeting Meetings, 1/3

Major Ideological Camps

The surviving Aeldari are at present divided into six overall ideological camps.

First are the Radicals or Adaptionists, into which your own coalition can be considered to fall. The thrust of this camp's philosophy is that the galaxy has irreversibly changed in the wake of the Fall and the Aeldari must change with it—though the nature and extent of said changes are highly varied within that grouping. No single voice is preeminent here, but there are many coalitions of like-minded Craftworlds which either ended their flight from the Fall in close proximity or were put in contact with each other by the Harlequins, suggesting at least tacit support from the Laughing God. Notably, the revelations on the nature of the Aeldari soul, your people's relationship with your gods, and the fact that provably irreparable damage has been done by the Fall you have made are likely to bring significant vindication to this faction, as they are in at least some degree correct that the Aeldari can never return to what they were.

The Survivalists are primarily concerned with the overall survival of the Aeldari as a whole, in the face of a universe grown suddenly hostile, particularly in the opposition of the Ruinous Powers in general and the Dark Prince in specific. Unsurprisingly, Ulthwe is the preeminent voice of this faction and the majority of those Craftworlds still caught in proximity to the Great Wound are united behind them on this matter.

Similar are the Conservationists or Preventionists, for whom the matter of the Aeldari's survival is a major issue, but also the matter of ensuring that the Fall is not repeated by ensuring a cultural shift away from its perceived root causes. Saim-Hann and the majority of the Exodites are the principal voices here.

The Asuryani are a significant plurality of Craftworlds at present, centered on Alaitoc, who have adopted a radical and extremely regimented social model—the "Paths of Asuryan"—that has proven highly effective against the obvious portions of the Hunger of Slaanesh, by living a strict, nearly monastic existence that includes daily meditation on the nature of Excess and how one may deny it, and committing to only a single task for days, or even years at a time. However, the narrow and extremely strict nature is both difficult and unpleasant to practice, and many are reluctant to embrace this path fully; though apparently work is being done on refining the practice further. The proven effectiveness, however, has brought many into this camp and ensured that even other factions often have a degree of sympathy for their ideals.

Next are the Revanchists, whose central drive is the restoration of the Empire—obviously, Iyanden is preeminent among this faction; though Biel-Tan is often its loudest voice. Despite containing two of the five largest craftworlds, this is actually the smallest faction by total population, as it possesses little support among the smaller craftworlds and is actively opposed by the Conservationists.

Lastly are the Neutrals or Independents, who do not fall into any of the above camps strongly enough to be considered part of them, though it is likely existing factions will be taking the opportunity to court these individual Craftworlds and small coalitions to their way of thinking.

Notable Specific Individuals and Craftworlds


Ulthwe leads a large coalition of those worlds near the Great Wound, with a few that are notably opposed to the Great Enemy as well—this includes primarily the Average Craftworlds of Lanimayesh, Varantha, and An-Iolsus, along with the Small Craftworlds Vaer-Kath, Lestellian, Myrtellos, and Jain-Il'Tenn. Of those, only Lestellian, Varantha and Lanimayash have sent more than token representatives—Lesteillian has sent their Fleetmaster Zashid Crimsonblade with the full plenipotentiary support of the Craftworld's triarchs, Varantha's own First Archon Tiraekr Daemonsbane is appearing in person, the Shattered Spear with which he slew Zarakynel when the Keeper of Secrets manifested within their conclave-grove and butchered their Everqueen-Regent and her handmaidens slung across his back, and Lanimayash has sent their First Princess Garin Yn'resh with Petalcutter, the ancestral blade of her house—which also, it was recently discovered, happens to be one of the legendary hundred blades forged for Khane by the smith-god Vaul, who bear the latter's name—as she is apparently the first in fifty millenia to be able to use its true powers. The leader of this coalition's party is none other than Eldrad Ulthran, who is likely the most powerful Psyker who yet lives among the Aeldari and presently leading Ulthwe itself under the comparatively humble title of "Farseer" for his natural talent for divination.
The party of Ulthwe is neutrally disposed to you, but maintains at least cordial relationships with all other major factions at present.

Saim-Hann has elected Durran Fellwinter as Chief of Chiefs for the immediate future, and while they have no other Craftworlds among their party, over sixty Exodite worlds have sent representatives in support, and most notably Ishareq, Naiatoc, Baran, Tirathain and Charnac have sent their Dragonlords in person rather than a deputy. While Saim-Hann and the Exodites they support are often sneered at by others as savages and barbarians, you have treated them with the full measure of respect they are due, and your contention of any new Empire and desire to forge your own path has gained you a measure of their respect. They are, however, strongly opposed to the Revanchist cause and Biel-Tan specifically, and therefore likely to be an ally in that matter even without any coxing on your part, simply for the opportunity to thwart Biel-Tan who have offended them mightily.

Alaitoc leads the second-smallest delegation of the major factions, yet simultaneously one with a great deal of weight—Wayseer Yvrann Henn of Aon'Tai is here. Archon-Prince Daelin Wren of Kalth'se is here. Firelord Erenesh of the House of Eldanesh is here, the ancient Pyromancer now leading her home of Magc'Sithraal. Each of them rules a Craftworld of equal size to your own Vau-Vulkesh, and represents between them five Average Craftworlds, six Small Craftworlds, and a baker's dozen minor Craftworlds sworn to one or another. Tyrellian Kulkessrin, who styles himself as "Autarch," has brought with him a pointed statement of the influence his Craftworld currently commands. He will be ill disposed to you—he has not forgotten your calling of the Paths he champions foolish—and will seek to vex you if he can, but he is also no fool, and will not risk his influence on any lost causes.

Most troublesome is Archon Aerellian Lightningblade of Biel-Tan. His militant drive to restore the Empire, at any cost, by almost any means, combined with a temper that burns like a star and a discipline that narrows it into a focused laser is an extremely dangerous combination—and you know already he has no compunction against the use of direct military action to get what he wants when his blunt negotiations fail to secure it. Your only comfort in this quarter is that the considerably more reasonable Kaeron Firecaller, who is the present elected head of Iyanden's ruling council and dispatched with the full support of his colleagues—probably because he is one of the few people who can pull Aerellian Lightningblade short—is the senior partner in that particular trouble spot, thanks to the greater power of influence Iyanden presently wields. These two have arrived alone save a small circle of advisors and bodyguards, as they presently have few allies.


Overall Analysis:

Ulthwe / the Survivalists: Concerned primarily with the Ruinous Powers and the survival of the Aeldari. Primarily centrists. No strong opinions on you at present, though this is likely to change when you drop the info-bomb at the moot proper.

Saim-Hann & Exodites / the Conservationists: Mostly here to see what all the fuss is about. Presently think fairly well of you. "Centrist" in that they oppose the resurrection of the Empire but otherwise don't care overmuch about how others organize themselves. Probably safe to expect them to be largely in your corner on most issues you are likely to have.

Alaitoc / the Asuryani: Tyrellian Kulkessrin personally dislikes you, but is politically savvy enough to bite his tongue and deal to keep his present position of influence. The rest of his party can't be ignored either, and between them average out to a largely centrist stance of neutral disposition.

Iyanden & Biel-Tan / the Revanchists: Iyanden is effectively neutral, but Biel-Tan is essentially your chief opponent here. Fortunately they are also the junior partner, so Iyanden's is the voice you must court.



From when you arrived, there are Three (3) Days until the Moot proper begins—as the last few delegations and attendees arrive—during which you can engage with specific parties in advance. For simple time-management reasons, you will be limited to three such meetings per day (for nine total)—as it would likely be nigh impossible to hold more given everyone else is engaging in similar politicking and you hardly want to have to share a room with Aerellian Lightningblade before you have to thanks to scheduling overlaps. Note that you can absolutely engage in follow-up meetings on following days if you want to sound out people on a subject. You can also fish for potential allies among the neutrals, or other parts of your own (extremely loose) ideological camp, or make a time-block available for other actors.


[ ] First Block (Write-in, subject to QM approval)
[ ] Second Block (Write-in, subject to QM approval)
[ ] Third Block (Write-in, subject to QM approval)


12 Hour Moratorium



A/N: If you're getting "Hero of a Different Story" vibes from any of the attendees, that's on purpose.
 
ask our enemies why they did not join the rest of their kind in the webway and commoragh, after all, by their own definition, they ARE the Aeldari Empire.
 
ask our enemies why they did not join the rest of their kind in the webway and commoragh, after all, by their own definition, they ARE the Aeldari Empire.
At present the state of the Dark City is "presumed eaten/made into Slaanesh's back annex" so sadly the prime insult of comparing people to Corrmorites is not yet available.
 
So Ulthwe, and Iyanden are the absolute musts here. Touching base with Saim-Hann would make sense as well. The big three here seem like the linchpins of ensuring Biel-Tan can't attack us without being treated as a rogue Craftworld. Secondary targets would be the Neutrals and other Adaptationists, to see if we can pull them (deeper) into our orbit. And I suppose the Centrists, just to make sure we're reasonably square with them.
 
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Looking at the various camps, I think that while the Survivalists might not care much about us, we probably care a fair bit about them - going over to talk about what disasters are ongoing and what help we might be able to lend would be just generally beneficial, even outside of the acquiring allies goal.

We probably want to talk to Alaitoc and Iyanden at least once. Alaitoc might be mad at us, but that's not reason to snub them further. We definitely don't want to snub Iyanden.

The Exodites might be interested in things we have to offer; certainly refitting fleets for them is simple and cheap for us, I'm generally in favor of doing it. Also, while we shouldn't be committing to larger projects at the moment, knowing what might be out there is worthwhile.

We should talk to other radicals, too; some of them will have done stuff we haven't, and we'll want to know about it even if all we learn is what not to do.
 
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