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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Professor Vesca said:
So I am looking at the list of Craftworlds.

Biel-Tan killed at least one. Havent made my way through the list.

What the shit bro.
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Talk shit, get hit, I assume. Biel Tan doesn't fuck around. After all, when the Eldar Dominon is reborn death will once more be irrelevant, so killing people is just a particularly vigorous debate tactic. If they were right; they'd have won the battle, and, anyway, once Slaneesh is gone everyone can laugh about it, and it'll all be an anecdote about that time we partied too hard and the hangover was awful and we had a pillow fight.

Fundamentally, if the Eldar ever come back, war is just a game. Nothing really matters, and if you complain you're just a sore loser. It's like having a massive strop about losing a sports game. Frankly, it's much more embarrassing for you than the team that won.

And OOC we may believe they're wrong. IC that's very hard to prove after sixty five million years.
 
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10ebbor10 said:
And TBH, this whole discussion is starting to feel like it's less about the Ishari, and whether to bring them to the Aeldmoot, and more about relitigating one of the first, quest defining votes.
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discussions diverge eventually. I doubt enough of the people voting for united front are paying enough attention to convinced of a turn around this late anyways.
Aliya said:
I mean, ultimately, we spent 3 points on the soulforging, so we will be soul forging eventually purely because of that, and to argue against it is to do the rudest thing - relitigation of past votes.
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definitely, if for no other reason because it's the best way to tune our souls for synchronized psycher casting to wield the power of thousands of our population through a single bad ass in power armor for the sake of castrating nurgle when we rescued Isha.

that said, if an alternative solution can be worked and our soul forging becomes more about innovating a means of regaining a fraction of our former glory rather than needing the majority of it focused on muzzling Slaanesh and restoring our ability to repopulate, that's worth doing.
10ebbor10 said:
Incidentally, and entirely unrelated, I do like the Ishari because of the sheer tonal whiplash they can bring to our craftworld.

On your left, a giant edifice of industry, a grand factory spitting out ancient power armor
On your right, a rainforest.
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Nah. The Ishari are all balcony and roof courtyard features to add some vibrancy to factory workers break areas. No rain forest on our craft world.
 
Professor Vesca said:
Biel-Tan killed at least one but there is a whole list of craftworlds that were destryoed during the Great Crusade.
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And some afterwards, like a Craftworld that just gets no-diffed by a single Warband of Night Lords apparently because they had a super Daemon Engine that was apparently both invincible and hyper-aggressive.
 
Mechanis said:



Vau-Vulkesh



Arach-Qin



Zahr-Tann

Even the least of the Craftworlds are constructions of colossal scale, massing as much as small moons and comparable only to planetary bodies in size. The largest outmass many planets, containing billions of lives, vast industries, and cavernous vaults filled with millennia of relics, equipment and treasures. Were it not for the supreme mastery of the ancient Aeldari Empire over the forces of the universe, such vessels would be incapable of visiting a star system without visiting disaster on any world they pass---yet such mastery those ancient builders possessed, and vast gravity-compensators and mass-reduction engines hum ever within their depths, chaining their immense gravitation fields to barely more than a midsized voidship.
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Wings

So many wings.

So many huge, beautiful wings.

And Arach-Qin really looks like a butterfly.

Gimmie those beauties.
 
Aliya said:
I mean, ultimately, we spent 3 points on the soulforging, so we will be soul forging eventually purely because of that, and to argue against it is to do the rudest thing - relitigation of past votes.
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This is the sunk cost fallacy in its purest form.

Past choices are dead and gone. They don't exist any more. Every new choice is a choice afresh, and should be assessed de novo, based on the situation we find ourself in.

All elections at relitigations of the previous one to some extent. That's how you judge whether the incumbents succeeded or failed, or whether you should change direction because you're heading towards a bad place.
 
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Yeah, just reviewed the Craftworld Kill List, most of them were "Made themselves so great a threat that they got to the Top of the List and subsequently Got Got, or were ganked by Chaos using a proxy or just doing it themselves."

Like, the one the Blood Angels jumped was because they were pulling some damn near Dark Space Elf level atrocities in the region and had to be stopped even at great risk (Apparently is was a major Corsair base that was causing a whole lot of problems), though I'm not sure what the one the Ultramarines jumped to provoke them though.

And yeah, Biel-Tan has the sole example of having ganked another Craftworld, yeesh.
 
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Mechanis said:



Vau-Vulkesh



Arach-Qin



Zahr-Tann

Even the least of the Craftworlds are constructions of colossal scale, massing as much as small moons and comparable only to planetary bodies in size. The largest outmass many planets, containing billions of lives, vast industries, and cavernous vaults filled with millennia of relics, equipment and treasures. Were it not for the supreme mastery of the ancient Aeldari Empire over the forces of the universe, such vessels would be incapable of visiting a star system without visiting disaster on any world they pass---yet such mastery those ancient builders possessed, and vast gravity-compensators and mass-reduction engines hum ever within their depths, chaining their immense gravitation fields to barely more than a midsized voidship.
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Omg, I love how Vau-Vulkesh looks, Its Very much a ship, But it also Looks like a Hammer. To be specific, It looks like a Joiners Mallet, And I love that so much. The suble hints towards a tool that in eldary culture has probably Been an artists tool for basically as long as the Aeldari have been a species.

The Other two looks Beautiful, Don't get me wrong, But their is something about the way that Vau-Vulkesh looks to be 70 parts ship, And 30 Parts Carpenter/Artists Hammer is lovely.
 
Alratan said:
This is the sunk cost fallacy in its purest form.

Past choices are dead and gone. They don't exist any more. Every new choice is a choice afresh, and should be assessed de novo, based on the situation we find ourself in.
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I think its notable that the past vote does matter because we dont get a choice but to continue the quest; the only question is how quickly we proceed.
 
gale said:
No it's not. It's expectations set by the fact choices matter and that we spend character generation points for it. So please do not try to pull this here.
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We spent and gained character generation points on lots of things.

I see this line of argument as being precisely equivalent to saying we shouldn't be allowed to build ships because we voted to start with a small fleet. That was just as much part of the character creation vote.

That vote didn't set that in stone anymore than anything else. It defined our starting position, which we should be completely free to move away from if we choose to based on what happens and what we learn.
 
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Alratan said:
However, based on what we now know, the Eldar may be able to break the three Curses without radical and possibly diminishing soul surgery.
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That's not really true. The Eye of Tzeentch? Certainly, given how weak it is right now and unstable its foundation. The Jealousy of Nurgle? Well yes, but it's ludicrous to claim armed heist in the core of a Chaos God's domain would be any less radical or soul-risking (at least for those carrying it out). The actual Hunger of Slaanesh?

No. The Paths don't actually offer any means to break it, and were never conceived to do so when everyone thought there was just one Curse to begin with. They've always been about simply giving less for Slaanesh to tug on while you're alive, then shoving your soul in a special lockbox when you die so She-Who-Thirsts can't snatch it - and hoping nobody is ever in a position to smash that box. The demise of more than one Craftworld in 40k, of course, indicates.

It assumes by definition, that there's no way to simply... block Slaanesh off.

Alratan said:
They're the ones saying, no, we can just win. We may not have the blessings of the gods anymore, but by force of arms and the will to power we can change our fate. Then we can abandon the Paths without a backwards glance.
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Sure, it's what Biel-Tan would say, but it's complete nonsense. If we weren't considering the soul surgery, no one would have learned there were multiple Curses present, the unknown two making any attempt towards 'force of arms and the will to power' impossible when Kairos would in time be able to utterly hijack the Asuryani's greatest asset, and Nurgle's influence preventing anyone from moving beyond 'the retrofitted vehicles, militia, and war cultists' paradigm demonstrately fails to move any closer to resurrecting the Empire of Eld?

Is it defeatism, to, after the greatest cataclysm in the history of your species, to say maybe we should step back and reconsider our direction? To suggest that maybe blind assumptions of superiority and smacking anyone who told us 'no' brought us this mess, and doubling down won't help? Or... to suggest that the path to victory lies in creativity and a willingness to take certain risks, like the ancestors of eld did?

Alratan said:
This is the sunk cost fallacy in its purest form.

Past choices are dead and gone. They don't exist any more. Every new choice is a choice afresh, and should be assessed de novo, based on the situation we find ourself in.
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You don't get to choose and abandon core beliefs because they are convenient. Moreover, the core premise of this quest is that no matter what, we aren't doing things the Craftworld way, and our beginning vote said "This is how we're going to do things." It's the story people want to explore: the heirs of Vaul who want to forge an entirely new path (pun unintented).

If you really don't like that, then this probably isn't the quest for you.
 
Ah yes a weakness we chose is the exact same as a benefit we chose. Not like we might want to get rid of weaknesses or something.
 
"Stop walking towards the Pizza Place, every step is a sunk cost fallacy" "I want pizza"

Legit, If that is the kind of character/Empire people want to PLAY as, Then its not sunk cost fallacy just because you disagree with the Pro's and con's of that path.
 
MrRageQuit said:
That's not really true. The Eye of Tzeentch? Certainly, given how weak it is right now and unstable its foundation. The Jealousy of Nurgle? Well yes, but it's ludicrous to claim armed heist in the core of a Chaos God's domain would be any less radical or soul-risking (at least for those carrying it out). The actual Hunger of Slaanesh?

No. The Paths don't actually offer any means to break it, and were never conceived to do so when everyone thought there was just one Curse to begin with. They've always been about simply giving less for Slaanesh to tug on while you're alive, then shoving your soul in a special lockbox when you die so She-Who-Thirsts can't snatch it - and hoping nobody is ever in a position to smash that box. The demise of more than one Craftworld in 40k, of course, indicates.

It assumes by definition, that there's no way to simply... block Slaanesh off.


Sure, it's what Biel-Tan would say, but it's complete nonsense. If we weren't considering the soul surgery, no one would have learned there were multiple Curses present, the unknown two making any attempt towards 'force of arms and the will to power' impossible when Kairos would in time be able to utterly hijack the Asuryani's greatest asset, and Nurgle's influence preventing anyone from moving beyond 'the retrofitted vehicles, militia, and war cultists' paradigm demonstrately fails to move any closer to resurrecting the Empire of Eld?

Is it defeatism, to, after the greatest cataclysm in the history of your species, to say maybe we should step back and reconsider our direction? To suggest that maybe blind assumptions of superiority and smacking anyone who told us 'no' brought us this mess, and doubling down won't help? Or... to suggest that the path to victory lies in creativity and a willingness to take certain risks, like the ancestors of eld did?


You don't get to choose and abandon core beliefs because they are convenient. Moreover, the core premise of this quest is that no matter what, we aren't doing things the Craftworld way, and our beginning vote said "This is how we're going to do things." It's the story people want to explore: the heirs of Vaul who want to forge an entirely new path (pun unintented).

If you really don't like that, then this probably isn't the quest for you.
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Yes, it's defeatism. It may be rational defeatism. It may indeed turn out to be impossible to rescue Isha and make her the Queen of the Phoenix-Court-in-Exile and so end Slaneesh's curse at a stroke.

However, neither IC nor OOC do we know that for sure.

Of course; it's very IC for Eldar to deny the very possibility that they could have been mistaken. Biel Tan was certainly doing that before we gave them enough information to sketch out a facially plausible path to victory, and you doing it OOC now surely reflects what our IC leadership is doing.

However, what we've learned does suggest that even if the full spectrum of Eldar might can't be recovered, the Curses could theoretically be broken without radical soul engineering.

Just because we vote for something doesn't oblige the QM to make that objectively the right decision. Our opponents are allowed to have a point and not just be straw men for us to knock down with no ambiguity. The Paths are allowed to have relative advantages compared to our approach as well as disadvantages.

We should be prepared to accept compromise or modify our starting position.
 
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Even if we rescue Isha, recognize her as rightful Queen of a reconstituted Phoenix Court, and dab on Chaos, we'll still have to do soul-forging. Our souls are missing chunks from the gods that died, those need to be addressed no matter what.
 
Mechanis said:



Vau-Vulkesh



Arach-Qin



Zahr-Tann

Even the least of the Craftworlds are constructions of colossal scale, massing as much as small moons and comparable only to planetary bodies in size. The largest outmass many planets, containing billions of lives, vast industries, and cavernous vaults filled with millennia of relics, equipment and treasures. Were it not for the supreme mastery of the ancient Aeldari Empire over the forces of the universe, such vessels would be incapable of visiting a star system without visiting disaster on any world they pass---yet such mastery those ancient builders possessed, and vast gravity-compensators and mass-reduction engines hum ever within their depths, chaining their immense gravitation fields to barely more than a midsized voidship.
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ok so getting a sense of scale for just how big a craftworlds are, I wonder if as a long term project we could develop techniques to upgun them? Aside from putting outright super massive guns on them to function as naval super weapons, we could just line a segment of them with several dozen battlefleets worth of guns. Make a little patch that if we can point at an oncoming fleet that fleet dies. If nothing else, it would force anyone attempting a landing to have to limit their approach vectors to blind spots to avoid just eating shit. It would make them far more defensible.
 
grimely said:
Even if we rescue Isha, recognize her as rightful Queen of a reconstituted Phoenix Court, and dab on Chaos, we'll still have to do soul-forging. Our souls are missing chunks from the gods that died, those need to be addressed no matter what.
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Why? Nothing about the Curses seems to require it. We might be able to make ourselves more powerful if we replace the missing parts, but why is it necessary?

This seems to be the same logic that lead the Dark Muses to say that they weren't powerful enough so they could soul forge themselves into gods. Where does it end?
 
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