The issue with climate conference argument is that climate change conferences had limited effect on climate change cause the solution proposed is way too moderate for the problem it is tackling. It is possible that the same issue might occur here if we step back from our convictions.
 
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The melodramatic doom saying is getting just a little obnoxious not gonna lie. like you keep presenting these extreme reactions where everyone who is not our allies are gonna decide they cant stand working with us but also that our allies will be practical if it means abandoning us and then pretending that these overblown and unrealistic responses are the obvious outcome.
all of this because we brought the tree Eldar to the party
It's pretty much confirmed that:
- conservative craftworlds will have an issue with us bringing in, em, undesirable elements like mad woodland hermits
- conservative craftworlds are a significant faction of the moot (radicals are big in the webway, but amid the realspacers we are probably the biggest rep for them).

I think it's fair to assume that we'll get a lot of credit for uncovering the curse and that spending part of it on making people listen to Ishari as equals will make spend less on other things that are also important to us.
We only know for sure one such thing, making BT stand back for a time but I think if we knew our other options ahead of time the vote wouldn't be so one sided.
 
It's pretty much confirmed that:
- conservative craftworlds will have an issue with us bringing in, em, undesirable elements like mad woodland hermits
- conservative craftworlds are a significant faction of the moot (radicals are big in the webway, but amid the realspacers we are probably the biggest rep for them).

I think it's fair to assume that we'll get a lot of credit for uncovering the curse and that spending part of it on making people listen to Ishari as equals will make spend less on other things that are also important to us.
We only know for sure one such thing, making BT stand back for a time but I think if we knew our other options ahead of time the vote wouldn't be so one sided.
where does it say conservatives are a large portion of the moot? pretty sure mechanis implied us finding out about this was enough to get bt off our back by default. i would argue that the fact that only 2 of the 5 major craftworld had problems with us because of our radicalism implies a pretty standard number of conservatives over all amongst eldar
 
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It's not; to me it's like going to a climate conference with a bunch of oppressive states there and making a big deal about their human rights issues.
This is bad comparison, because you're mentioning two seperate issues. Climate change can be dealt with without dealing with human rights.

But in our case, the existence of the Ishari is key to the problem and the solution. What you are proposing then is organizing a climate change conference, but banning the discussion of solar power because you don't want to upset the coal mining industry.



Ultimately, this discussion has been incredibly myopic because it focusses solely on one single thing, which is whether or not to appease the conservatives, and in doing so it ignores that this vote is not a single vote on the Ishari, it's a multi choice vote.

We have lost light of the forest for the trees.

There are many, many more things to consider. Even the inclusion of the Ishari is far more multifaceted than whether or not to deal with conservative disgust.

1) We have to admit that this is not the first proposal to a united coalition. One was tried 20 years ago, and Biel-Tan is still trying to murder us over the fallout of it's failure. So, for every minor craftworld, or major craft world, the idea of a united coalition, especially one led by conservative assets, will be utterly toxic. The disgust or lack of disgust from conservatives is far from the most important problem in creating a coalition. The most important problem will be to get people to work together with the people who may or may not have tried to murder them in the last 20 years.

2) We have to consider the political make-up of the meeting. We made the choice to focus almost entirely on inviting the major craftworlds. We spend only the minimal amount of influences on contacting the minor craftworlds, or the Exodites.
The result is that we have created a meeting in which the conservative factions are the most influential. Like, I don't disagree with the choices made, but we have to consider the results. We've already snubber the minor craft worlds and exodites, just by our distribution of invitations.

3) Any united front is easier said than done. Because as soon as you've made a front, you have to decide what that front is going to do, and whose going to be in charge of it. Our allegiance, in this particular matter, is clear. It was literally one of the defining votes at the start of char-gen.

[ ] To Guard the Soul, a Shield Alone is Insufficient (-3 points)
Asuryan's path is the way of defense—to concede the field lost, and hope that one may survive an endless siege. A fool's hope. Of eld your souls were forged into their present shape of shining, immortal crystal, yet the Soul-Drinker's birth has put a great crack within that shaping. Could you, perhaps, use that fracture to forge anew, a shape to reject the Dark Prince's claim? Perhaps it is hubris to even try, for you do not claim the secrets of the Old Ones, yet are you not their successors?
Reforge your souls as the Old Ones once did for the War in Heaven, in a way that actively rejects Slannesh. Will succeed at least as well as the Asuryani method at mitigating the influence of Chaos, effects beyond that highly unpredictable.

This alone renders the idea of a prolonged united coalition a faint hope, because hte conservatives will never stand for this.

4) Our personal political issues aside, those of conservatives come to the fore as well. Is a united front good, if all it decides upon is to rejigger the paths a little so that htey better combat the curse? We need a coherent plan of action, and a viable to the future, if we wish to have a sufficiently sized voice inside whatever arguments are raised at the moot.




But I said I wasn't here solely to talk about the Ishari.
Let's look at what the other choices of invitations are doing.

1) The Choice not to invite the sons means that, in our own delegation, and in our faction, we will be dramatically outnumbered. We will have little time to make deals or mingle at the meeting, and our allies (who all get a seat) will have a wide opportunity and expectation to act cindependently.

2) We have a focus on picking primary leadership figures and members of the old guard. No secondary figures invited.

3) We invite everyone of our allies, an intentional choice.

where does it say conservatives are a large portion of the moot? pretty sure mechanis implied us finding out about this was enough to get bt off our back by default. i would argue that the fact that only 2 of the 5 major craftworld had problems with us because of our radicalism implies a pretty standard number of conservatives over all amongst eldar
We spend a lot of AP inviting the conservatives, very little on inviting the independent craftworlds and exodites.
 
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where does it say conservatives are a large portion of the moot?
Alaitoc, Biel-tan, to a lesser - but not lesser enough to not count - degree, Iyanden.

Out of those conservatives, tho, Alaitoc is merely very angery with us while Biel-Tan really want us gone.

//unconnected to the broader argument, just my eye caught on this
 
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Sam-hain is not conservative Ulthwe is not conservative Iyanden is not so conservative that they want to cause us trouble over not being so the only 2 where it is a problem are Biel'tan and Alaitoc on top of that keep in mind part of inviting the major craftworlds means they invite there own allies which means smaller craft worlds and exodite worlds.
Sam-hain if i remember correctly explicitly brought a lot of exodites Im sure the other 4 brought plenty of craftworlds not to mention we also brought craftworlds ourselves. this is hardly a conservatives only show
2 and a half out of 5 in other words.
 
I think there is a bit too much doomerism about how much support or opposition we will be encountering.

Here is the rough makeup of the non-conservative elements present at the Aeldmoot.
There is a radical minority that still exists, that hasn't been hung out to die, forced into line for survival, or otherwise surpressed, there is a sufficient plurality of centrists and or people who just do not care anymore given the radically changed circumstances that it isn't a certain issue anymore even for the Craftworlders
So clearly the conservatives do not make up the Majority of the Aeldmoot since otherwise the centrists/people who don't care wouldn't be noted to be the plurality.

The fact that radicals are noted to be a minority of it's own at the Aeldmoot suggests that their presence isn't exactly non-existent either.

While we only invested one AP apiece on the minors and Exodites it's not like the other Craftworlds don't get a vote either.

Saim-Hann as I noted before has a ton of Dragonships surrounding their contingent which suggests they invited a ton of Exodite representatives too.
There, the battlejoy red and freedom black stripes of Saim-Hann fly proudly, dozens upon dozens of Dragonships of every imaginable size and make and color swarming around them.
 
What the thread thinks about the chances of other post-slash-trans-eldar communities like Ishari existing, btw?

Nvm whatever you might find in Commoragh.
 
I bet the Update will be a huge disappointment for everybody. Simply because we will not get instantly sucked into Slaaneshs belly for bringing the Ishari and everything going straight to the Warp. The Ishari were the obvious Trap Option to end the Quest in the lamest Way possible. :V

*Dons Tinfoil Hat* For you see, the Harlequins never really reached us. They were Deamonettes in Disguise and brought us the Ishari, which are obviously Worshippers of Nurgle, because Isha is his new Bride, to infiltrate us, while Tzeentch planned the Aeldarmoot to get all the important Eldar in One Place... *continues down the rabid raving Rabbit Hole till it all goes up in a Cloud of Nihilistic Absurdism*
 
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What? What are you talking about? Everything we do is political, the only question we have to answer is what are our politics and what do we want to present to the world. Or more specifically the Aeldmoot.
yes, but our politics could have been "this is important and we need to put aside major Ideological issues to deal with it" rather than "we are radicals and proud of it, and we have this critical bit of intelligence we uncovered with our radical ways"
The melodramatic doom saying is getting just a little obnoxious not gonna lie. like you keep presenting these extreme reactions where everyone who is not our allies are gonna decide they cant stand working with us but also that our allies will be practical if it means abandoning us and then pretending that these overblown and unrealistic responses are the obvious outcome.
all of this because we brought the tree Eldar to the party
the odds are at least decent that this leads to the formation of major factions each seeking a solution aligning with their political stance(radical,moderate, conservative) with some splinter groups, and thus a greater chance of misstep in the process.
 
the odds are at least decent that this leads to the formation of major factions each seeking a solution aligning with their political stance(radical,moderate, conservative) with some splinter groups, and thus a greater chance of misstep in the process.
that has already happened BT did not try to murder us and send us to super hell for no reason. Alaitoc hates for a reason
 
yes, but our politics could have been "this is important and we need to put aside major Ideological issues to deal with it" rather than "we are radicals and proud of it, and we have this critical bit of intelligence we uncovered with our radical ways"

the odds are at least decent that this leads to the formation of major factions each seeking a solution aligning with their political stance(radical,moderate, conservative) with some splinter groups, and thus a greater chance of misstep in the process.
The problem here is that we did find this issue through our radical ways.

A united front based on appeasing conservatives is a united front that must reject effective solutions for political reasons.
After all, that is what not bringing the Ishari is doing. We are denying ourselves the following

1) Unique foresight, on an entirely different path of others, that is unaffected by the curse.

The longest of these gained foresight that was often of a different metaphysical 'angle' and were thus able to predict the Fall well in advance, and its effects on their population.

2) Practical understanding of how the curse works, by an example upon which it doesn't.

While this has protected them from the Curse,

3) An ordained priestess of Isha, perhaps the only such priestess that has a link to Isha yet does not suffer from Nurgle's curse.


(Edit ; I should also note that "the conservatives will complain" is put on the same level of importance as "moving a tree is a lot of work" in her vote choice. People turn it into this massive diplomatic landmine, but the vote does not lend it that kind of importance.

Whilst both the logistics of transporting sufficient biomass to sustain her and the likelihood of pushback from the more conservative Craftworlds given the soul-modification they have performed, bringing Irsfeial would be a strong statement to the more radical factions—and she is an ordained priestess of Isha, whose survival is part of the news you will be breaking.
In fact, it doesn't even offer a guarantee of pushback , merely a "likelyhood". it's a cost, but people are way overinflating it.
 
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The problem here is that we did find this issue through our radical ways.

A united front based on appeasing conservatives is a united front that must reject effective solutions for political reasons.
a united front could have been formed based on a vague notion of finding solutions, and include more world overall, and focused on eye Tzeench first which doesn't likely require anything too radical to resolve. the success of dealing with that would allow us to gradually push towards more radical solutions toward the other two without losing most of the moderates and most of the more lightly conservative. the overall result of this approach is more Aeldari resources being concentrated upon problems initially and only splitting into two groups later, rather than possibly 3 from the Aeldmoots end on.
 
We do not actually know if Greenseers are totally shielded from the foresight curse. It is a reasonable theory - I think I was one of the first people to float it, lol - but we didn't get a confirmation from Mechanis.
 
We do not actually know if Greenseers are totally shielded from the foresight curse. It is a reasonable theory - I think I was one of the first people to float it, lol - but we didn't get a confirmation from Mechanis.
The turn post says 'protects them from the curse', so the evidence seems to point in that direction. If they aren't, that too will be massively important information.

a united front could have been formed based on a vague notion of finding solutions, and include more world overall, and focused on eye Tzeench first which doesn't likely require anything too radical to resolve. the success of dealing with that would allow us to gradually push towards more radical solutions toward the other two without losing most of the moderates and most of the more lightly conservative. the overall result of this approach is more Aeldari resources being concentrated upon problems initially and only splitting into two groups later, rather than possibly 3 from the Aeldmoots end on.
You are talking about a curse that has wiretapped every aldaeri seeer, with the probable exception of the Greenseeers, and you wish to exclude the latter from being part of the solution.

(Also, this argument once again relies on the assumption that the conservatives are the only people whose opinions matter, while everyone else will automatically follow along. That is not going to be the case, especially with the massive amount of bad blood that exists between various Eldar (see : Biel Tan's whole "Join or Die" deal). What you might gain in conservative support, you will lose in radical support. Getting the more radical factions on board is not a guarantee, nor automatic.
 
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We do not actually know if Greenseers are totally shielded from the foresight curse. It is a reasonable theory - I think I was one of the first people to float it, lol - but we didn't get a confirmation from Mechanis.
I think there thing is there visions are looking at things from a different angle because their plant people now and precieve the world slightly differently, so their visions just sort of Arc around the curse, inadvertently leaving them unaffected.
The longest of these gained foresight that was often of a different metaphysical 'angle' and were thus able to predict the Fall well in advance, and its effects on their population.
You are talking about a curse that has wiretapped every aldaeri seeer, with the probably exception of the Greenseeers, and you wish to exclude the latter from being part of the solution.
they are not needed, may not even be helpful since there visions are seemingly operating sufficiently differently from normal visions to the point they may quite literally operate on a different spectrum from the ones the curse afflicts. hence why we are still scrying using our seers despite the interference.
 
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This is the last thing I'm going to say on the matter but something else to consider is that we leave Irsfeial behind and no one reveals that the Ishari exist and then it gets found out later then Biel-Tan or someone else could make accusations of trying to hide them and bring back the perversions that the Craftworlders and Exodites fled the old Empire to escape.
 
they are not needed, may not even be helpful since there visions are seemingly operating sufficiently differently from normal visions to the point they may quite literally operate on a different spectrum from the ones the curse afflicts. hence why we are still scrying using our seers despite the interference.
If that is how it works, then that is incredibly, massively useful.

The ability to look at the same future through different lenses, one of which tainted, the other not, is how you discern that distortion. It's how you figure out what is wrong and what is right.
Right now we're not using the greenseeers because all they're getting back is ""FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!"
Same reason we haven't used any of Meros's scrying capabilities, they were busy with Orks.

But once we've finished the evacuation, they will be a tremendous asset.
 
If that is how it works, then that is incredibly, massively useful.

The ability to look at the same future through different lenses, one of which tainted, the other not, is how you discern that distortion. It's how you figure out what is wrong and what is right.
Right now we're not using the greenseeers because all they're getting back is ""FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!"
Same reason we haven't used any of Meros's scrying capabilities, they were busy with Orks.

But once we've finished the evacuation, they will be a tremendous asset.
there isn't any distortion to notice. the curse hasn't reached the level of strength needed to distort vision yet. it only interfere's by way of feedback to brute force failure, as demonstrated by the backlash that threw the unnamed seerlord into a wall.
 
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there isn't any distortion to notice. the curse hasn't reached the level of strength needed to distort vision yet. it only interfere's by way of feedback to brute force failure, as demonstrated by the backlash that through the unnamed seerlord into a wall.
Then the ability to bypass that, and see what the enemy does not want us to see, is once again a massive asset.

Like, your entire argument is based on "getting as much resources on the problem as possible", but so far, what it seems to amount to is throwing away loyal, friendly resources out of hand, for the nebulous purpose of maybe getting resources dedicated to us that hate us.

Remember, if the conservatives had their way, this discovery would never have been made. The mere investigation was too radical for them.
 
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Then the ability to bypass that, and see what the enemy does not want us to see, is once again a massive asset.
we are already bypassing that same interference on our own. yes, in the short term they move prove useful by way of scrying enemies we might hesitate to scry normally, or because of the assets we may miss out on by including them. it's not likely to prove particularly important to our research into the eye of Tzeench.

the trees can focus on fixing our agriculture. we have Old Man Meros for seering. their greenseers welps aren't needed.
 
When talking about the major craftworlds, people are also ignoring Ulthwe's world rune.

It was hinted at in the update, but their rune is the Eye of Isha, with a tear, representing her suffering.

For all that conservatives will dislike the Ishari, Ulthwe will probably be a lot more invested and push a lot harder in their favor.
 
Remember, if the conservatives had their way, this discovery would never have been made. The mere investigation was too radical for them.

Biel-Tan also will only try to stop murdering us because the other major craftworlds tell them to, without that even with the information about the curse given freely they would still try to kill us*.

*pretty sure they will still try to but have to be a lot more subtle about it then just run a few hundred warhosts into us.
 
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