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- Wherever I feel like being
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Given the Drhukari are already a thing? That would have been impossible.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
No, conflict is unavoidable, because one Craftworld hates us enough to attack us pre-emptively before we've even done anything, and another will explicitly block what we do out of spite. The only reason we're not turbofucked is because another Major likes us and thinks those guys are jerks anyway, so can check their influence.
That doesn't go away just because we've called the Aeldmoot. One of them hates us badly enough to send our souls to She-Who-Thirsts because we badmouthed their revanchist philosophy once. They have literally decided they hate us enough to damn us to gigahell.
That's not going to be mitigated because we hid the Ishari from them for the Moot.
That's what I mean when I say "Trying to avoid conflict with the Conservatives here is a fool's game". They already hate us, but we're not trying to flip them, we're trying to flip the neutrals. Ulthwe and Iyanden. We get them even one step friendly, and the ability of Biel-Tan to fuck us over personally drops to nigh zero. And if Iyanden is probably one of the only Craftworlds we know that isn't flagrantly Conservative, given how a great deal of the innovations that make the Paths possible at all came from them.
A united front is the ideal outcome, yes, but ceding our own agenda to get it is folly. If our words and our evidence aren't enough, and the Ishari being a thing is going to be their red line, then I doubt a united front was possible in the first place without collapsing or forcing us into the Paths anyway.
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No, that was "just" to get the message out to as many people as we can while giving them the detail version of how the curse fucks over the eldar.
What they do with that answer is pretty much purely up to them.
A side note for us here apart from that the goal is get the other major ones to tell Biel-Tan to fuck off with the rep we get from this and maybe get some allies that are also radical to join us.
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Yes, there's a reason I came up with two versions of my plan, one for attempting reconciliation, one for promoting division, as I think that's the salient choice.
It depends on what you think what kind of problem we're facing.
If it's a collective action problem and we need as many people as possible on board, we should go for facilitating a broad but shallow coalition where the neutrals (Iyanden and Ulthwe) can wrangle the extremists on both sides (us, Biel Tan, and Alaitoc) into all pulling in the same direction.
If it's instead, something we can solve ourselves without or despite other factions working at cross-purposes to us, it's makes more sense focus on building a much smaller but much deeper coalition.
One thing that's notable is that the wings of Eldar politics are not symmetrical.
There are two Conservative Major Craftworlds and three Neutral ones. One of the Neutral ones leans in our direction for reasons unconnected to the Radical - Conservative spectrum. There are no Radical Major Craftworlds.
Now, it also matters what kind of problem Iyanden and Ulthwe think this is. If they think they face a collective action where they need to get the largest possible number of Eldar pointing in the same direction, if they have to choose between the Radicals and Conservatives it would seem obvious that they choose the Conservatives. There's just so many more of them.
If, instead it's a problem that can be solved without collective action, picking us rather the Conservatives makes more sense, if they think we bring some unique capabilities that make enough of a difference to outweigh what Alaitoc and Biel Tan and their blocks offer.
I don't think they know we're Radical in Soul Forging terms. They know we haven't adopted the Paths, but I don't think that's the same. We could still, IC choose a non-Soul Forging approach I think. Same as the Exodites.
We should still be publicly be neutral on that axis, I think, unless we bring the Ishari with us.
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We can definitely become our own Eldar subspecies.
Expect the things aren't so black and white, you are basing your plan on assumptions that Ulthwe and Iyanden will accept Ishari and won't side with Biel-Tan on the matter of Ishari given the history of the Eldars. Yes they may accept our warning but that doesn't mean that they will accept Ishari and our solution.
Idea that we will sway neutrals by being "radical" ( best way to put the word) is quite Improbable also do take into the account that we are quite early in the fall of Eldar Empire and many may not like equivalent of Muses walking around and will be quite suspicious of it.
More likely than not we will draw a line and cement Ulthwe and Iyandens neutrality in between two extreme factions as we aren't behaving like reasonable people as well.
If we wanted to sawy them keeping our opinion to ourselves and calling for greater unity would have been the way, not us pushing further divisions by pushing our own political ideas on the rest.
In case of ceding our own agenda? There's a difference between ceding our own agenda, pushing our own agenda and keeping our own agenda to ourselves. Third is the best way to foster cooperation as we aren't pushing our agenda and understand that our path may not be the only one out there. By not pushing our agenda we are free to pursue it , but we also maintain a level of cooperation with rest of the Craftworlds and will be free to gradually share our ideas with them.
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Adrian Tchaikovsky has written a bunch of cool stuff about this in his Final Architecture series (Shards of Earth, etc).
I think that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think that if we don't go out of our way to keep highlighting the issue and keeping it salient, Biel Tan can keep on hating us and Alaitoc disliking us as much, but that doesn't stop all of us working together as long as Iyanden and Ulthwe can sit in between us and coordinate things so we never have to directly interact.
An example issue we have is that we could offend them enough to make Iyanden and Ulthwe choose between working with us and working with them. The Conservatives may still hate us. What depends is how far they're willing to go to oppose us short of war.
Biel Tan and Alaitoc aren't Iyanden's vassals. Iyanden, as I understand it, is first amongst equals. If the later two tell Iyanden to fuck off and never come back, in the extreme case, that's a massive hit to their soft power, and risks cementing another dangerous division in Eldar culture right when there's a chance to get us working together more broadly. Iyanden may be able to deter Biel Tan from attacking us, but can't tell them what to do. For example; if we one day want to rescue Isha, having Biel Tan and Alaitoc and their allies' forces along for the ride would probably be very helpful.
This also isn't about Biel Tan attacking us anymore, as we know that the Harlequins will stop that. It's about the broader shape of international relations.
The conference could be an opportunity to focus the Eldar on their bigger problems and put internecine conflict aside for now, as they now have a place to start trying to break the Curses. This is strongly in line with Biel Tan's overall agenda, so it's something we could agree is more important than everything else. If we don't instead chose to focus attention on what divides rather than what unifies us by poking the Conservatives where they're sensitive. To my mind it's like going to a climate climate conference and making a big deal with China about human rights there. Sure, human rights are very important, but it's just likely to derail the conference, is unlikely to advance human rights much, and squander an opportunity to make real progress on the climate issue. No matter how much you dislike China or China dislikes you going into the conference, it's still not a good idea.
We're not ceding our agenda. This conference just isn't the time or the place to prioritise that aspect of it over the Aeldmoot's actual objective.
Otherwise, Mechanis wouldn't have described the option to bring the Ishari in the way he did, if it made no difference to their opinions as you're asserting.
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So the other Eldar will hate and reject Alaitoc for employing the Path System? It is also a quite Radical Solution to the Problem, by changing the Way Society as a whole works.
Or would they Reject Ulthwe, which is guided by the Farseers and not by others?
Maybe they will excile Saim-Hann for not being carbon copies of themselves?
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Let's be honest here, our agenda is a little more radical than the other's, these change society while we push Transeldarism and change of entire species and here we are making it quite clear that we want to spread these ideas further.
We all know what such idea's caused before, as well as potential consequences.
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Honestly the amount of routine dooming is kind of tiresome. Defying fate means defying hatred too, which, uh, we've done. Mechanis has flat out said that we beat the odds by being able to call the Aeldmoot before Biel-tan attacked us, so let's operate in the spirit of performing the impossible instead of assuming that everything will be awful.
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My problem with leaving the Ishari behind is it's all nice and happy to say we're more likely to get peace with all Eldar that way, but that peace wouldn't be something we could rely on to protect the Ishtari.
They wouldn't be part of it, after all.
And that's likely to get us fucked later, because we're not going to back off protecting the Ishari. I'd not rather be the party getting tarred as kinslayer and peacebreaker when that happens.
They wouldn't be part of it, after all.
And that's likely to get us fucked later, because we're not going to back off protecting the Ishari. I'd not rather be the party getting tarred as kinslayer and peacebreaker when that happens.
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Indeed, let's try to find a way we can assemble a broad coalition where us and Biel Tan and Alaitoc put their differences aside in favour of overcoming the Curses.
How? The Ishari have the Harlequins' protection now. No Eldar faction here is going to attack them anymore, for fear of being murdered.
On top of that, they'll be living on our Craftworld, so will be just as safe as us.
This does nothing to protect the Ishari.
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We can only take risk so long before it backfires. Being realistic from time, to time is a good thing.
I would say that that isn't really a problem because if we don't bring them to the the spotlight we also won't really have the need to protect them by giving the excuse to the conservatives to condemn us and them. What we do within our Craftworld is our own internal politics and if someone challenges us on it we can fight them off.
But generally as it was worded in the summit who we bring with us is about making political statement. We basically aren't protecting them as much as bringing them with us to further our political goals. Bringing Ishari with us isn't about morals, it's about politics.
Us bringing them won't really change the views of others opposed to force the issue right then and now at which point Biel-Tan will probably get a free hand, we may get brownie points but Ishari will get denounced by the conservatives because no Craftworld will alienate them over Ishari.
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My understanding is that that protection covers people showing up at the Moot.
There's only so many Harlequins and they can't be everywhere; that's why they needed us to do the evacuation of the Ishari in the first place, after all.
And, to be clear: showing up with the Ishari in tow means we're publicly saying "yes, these are kin, genociding them is kinstrife, we will back up the Harlequins if you start shit with them."
And not bringing the Ishari, well, it's not saying the opposite - but it's not not saying it, either.
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Our character creation vote has locked us into the riskiest, least realistic, least conservative, most bold approach to dealing with She Who Thirsts. Playing conservatively isn't going to help us.
Exactly, this is bringing your wiccan radfem girlfriend to a mormon family reunion to make a statement.
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Yes, but that doesn't mean that we cannot be smart about it and avoid expending our resources on unnecessary battles.
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grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Yeah, the statement is that she's part of the family.
Mechanis said that the Harlequins would murder people for talking shit about the Ishari, and that people would know that, and so not do so.
Them putting that message out there subsequently acts as an enormous protection, as no faction is going to want to take the risk of taking the much more aggressive step of exterminating them, and that fear should extend beyond the conference.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Bringing the Ishari is a necessary battle. We need to establish here and now that they're just as much Eldar as the rest of us.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Our first objective is to tell everyone about the curse and Isha. This will be accomplished as a matter of course.
Our second objective is to get Ulthwe and Iyanden to tell Biel-Tan to back off.
Our third objective is to show our faction off so we can draw more craftworlds and exodite worlds int our orbit. Thus making it harder for Biel-Tan to enact bloody revenge in the future and expand our factions capabilities. Many hands make for light work and so on and so forth.
I will talk primarily about the second as that is what is in contention.
Ulthwe primarily cares about opposing Slaanesh and the other three. They are famous for their seers and their youngest member Eldrad is their leader and also probably the most powerful psyker of our age. We are bringing to him the seerlord and his heir apparent, a Seer of such age that he has forgotten more things then we will ever know.
We anticipate that this will catch Eldrads attention and our hope is he will follow the Seerlord around like a lost puppy hanging off of his every word. It is my hope that Ulthwe through Eldrad will want to try to get onto our good side so as to have access to the warp lore of Meros whom we have spent no small amount of time and energy pulling from the fire.
Ulthwe will remember this debt and hopefully we can get them to get the other majors off of our backs, specifically Biel-Tan and Alaitoc, in exchange.
Iyanden is a bit murder. They want what is best for the diaspora as a whole. They gave us soul stones and may in the future give us infinity circuits. The fact that we are sharing what we know with as many people as we can at the first available opportu city should earn us many gold stars in their books. The only question for me is whether or not they will take exception to the Ishari.
I don't know that they will automatically approve of them. But I do think they will give the Ishari a chance because we gave them a chance because Cegorach gave them a chance.
The God of Fools had his followers directly intervene in the fate of the Ishari to put them in front of us and was very pleased when we agreed. If that does not give Iyanden enough pause to listen and consider and not discount us and our allies out of hand then nothing will.
I think the fate of the Aeldari is an overriding concern to Iyanden and the gods of the Aeldari asked us to do a thing for them and we are doing it. For now we are favored by that same God. So I believe they will allow themselves to be swayed by our words. Further work will require us to talk to them and get a feel for their current thoughts.
I dont care about the opinions of the exodites or of the other minors. Their opinions will be that of their patrons, or they will have already made up their mind, or they will be open to convincing.
We don't know who they are so it's not worth dwelling on until we meet them. Regardless I think in this instance it's important not to hide who we are and who we associate with. Better to be rejected today then to depend on them and be left hanging tomorrow.
Our second objective is to get Ulthwe and Iyanden to tell Biel-Tan to back off.
Our third objective is to show our faction off so we can draw more craftworlds and exodite worlds int our orbit. Thus making it harder for Biel-Tan to enact bloody revenge in the future and expand our factions capabilities. Many hands make for light work and so on and so forth.
I will talk primarily about the second as that is what is in contention.
Ulthwe primarily cares about opposing Slaanesh and the other three. They are famous for their seers and their youngest member Eldrad is their leader and also probably the most powerful psyker of our age. We are bringing to him the seerlord and his heir apparent, a Seer of such age that he has forgotten more things then we will ever know.
We anticipate that this will catch Eldrads attention and our hope is he will follow the Seerlord around like a lost puppy hanging off of his every word. It is my hope that Ulthwe through Eldrad will want to try to get onto our good side so as to have access to the warp lore of Meros whom we have spent no small amount of time and energy pulling from the fire.
Ulthwe will remember this debt and hopefully we can get them to get the other majors off of our backs, specifically Biel-Tan and Alaitoc, in exchange.
Iyanden is a bit murder. They want what is best for the diaspora as a whole. They gave us soul stones and may in the future give us infinity circuits. The fact that we are sharing what we know with as many people as we can at the first available opportu city should earn us many gold stars in their books. The only question for me is whether or not they will take exception to the Ishari.
I don't know that they will automatically approve of them. But I do think they will give the Ishari a chance because we gave them a chance because Cegorach gave them a chance.
The God of Fools had his followers directly intervene in the fate of the Ishari to put them in front of us and was very pleased when we agreed. If that does not give Iyanden enough pause to listen and consider and not discount us and our allies out of hand then nothing will.
I think the fate of the Aeldari is an overriding concern to Iyanden and the gods of the Aeldari asked us to do a thing for them and we are doing it. For now we are favored by that same God. So I believe they will allow themselves to be swayed by our words. Further work will require us to talk to them and get a feel for their current thoughts.
I dont care about the opinions of the exodites or of the other minors. Their opinions will be that of their patrons, or they will have already made up their mind, or they will be open to convincing.
We don't know who they are so it's not worth dwelling on until we meet them. Regardless I think in this instance it's important not to hide who we are and who we associate with. Better to be rejected today then to depend on them and be left hanging tomorrow.
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Same can be really achieved with Gradual approach as doing it in extreme way may just polarize the opinions and have opposite effect of what you want to achieve. I weary well understand what's the goal of bringing Ishari, but as i said just as we can push for them to be acknowledged Conservatives with a lot more influence can push for them to be denounced by everyone.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
We are literally never going to have more clout than we do right now, unless we somehow manage to singlehandedly break one of the three Curses on our own. There's shepherding resources and then there's not exploiting advantage. We are offering something even Biel-tan wants, a way to overcome the weakness and lethargy afflicting the entirety of the Eldar.
I personaly am somewhat sad that more people didn't vote for "Plan: Allies and Bling" but I guess Aelctai plan isn't that bad. I would prefer it dropping to squadron squad as we are going to peaceful gathering, and our battleships aren't that good.
Not to mention that squad of heavy crusiers would represent united coalition better.
Not to mention that squad of heavy crusiers would represent united coalition better.
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