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A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)

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Took a read of the Ishari option and a few things stand out.
[ ] Irsfeial, Emissary of the Ishari
Whilst both the logistics of transporting sufficient biomass to sustain her and the likelihood of pushback from the more conservative Craftworlds given the soul-modification they have performed, bringing Irsfeial would be a strong statement to the more radical factions—and she is an ordained priestess of Isha, whose survival is part of the news you will be breaking.
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First is that pushback does not seem to be guaranteed as the specific drawback is "the likelihood of pushback " rather than just outright stating that there will be pushback.

It is possible that depending on who we bring and the rolls that we could avoid pushback entirely or the severity of the pushback may change (could be better or worse).

The second bit is linked with the first as the part about "pushback" isn't from the Craftworlds in general but rather from "the more conservative Craftworlds".

That obviously includes Majors like Biel Tan and Alaitoc plus any smaller ones that subscribe to a similar ideology but that wouldn't even be considered a majority of the Major Craftworlds as I wouldn't call Iyanden very conservative given the fact that they only reacted with mild disappointment to us outright rejecting their ambitions of bringing back the Aeldari empire.

Heck, the statement makes no mention of Exodites at all so it's possible that bringing the Ishari doesn't actually trigger any specific issue with them.
 
MajorCringe said:
The Ishari are a direct part of our explanation though, and is the closest thing to Isha's voice left amongst the craftworlders. Leaving them out could be portrayed as an insult, and any craft world that gets miffed about their soul modification will probably be distracted by the fact Isha still lives.
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Only if the identity of the messenger doesn't discredit the message. What if they say, 'that looks like a Haemonculus experiment, I don't trust a word that comes out of its mouth'.

I think we're better off just presenting what evidence we have and leaving it at that.

I'm not sure having a tree person claiming that they and they alone have a unique connection to Isha that the other ex-priests of Isha in the room lack, trust us, is as convincing an argument as I think you're implying.

And the Ishari are busy evacuating. If it was an insult not to invite them, I'm pretty sure Mechanis would have told us in the vote descriptions.

Alectai said:
... It has not been long enough for Iyanden and Biel-Tan to become besties who'll fight for each other, right or wrong.
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To be fair, we don't know what their pre-Fall relationship was, I think. They could have always been close allies.
 
Alratan said:
There are other ways of innovation than radical self-modification. Just because the Craftworld Eldar don't embrace the exact same practices that we're told lead to the Fall

As I understand it, temporarily possessing another body was Ok. Permanently modifying yourself to be part plant is not. It's like how fasting can be fine but starving yourself to death isn't. Sometimes a change of degree becomes a change of kind.



Two things:

1) This isn't about denying someone's personhood. It's about the bioconservatives saying that they've committed a grave crime. They're still an Eldar, just as Heamonculi are still Eldar. They're just criminals/heretics/evil because of their actions. That's very different. It's not nice. But it's different.

2) Given how Eldar are Deva of their gods radical self-transformation may actually be problematic, as it may have undesired impacts on those gods, as below, so above style, so they may actually have a point.

3) It's not them who are likely to do the dying in this scenario. The trans-Eldarists are likely the much weaker side who need the rest's help. Deliberately drawing attention to the differences and making them stronger and not focusing on the major issue everyone faces does not help.



Yes, but as I understand it the difference is that they could always turn back? They were just temporarily occupying a different form and could always just return to their own body?
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Well. "Return to their own body" as in "die and get a new one", yes. It was, after all, often less trouble to do that than keep the original alive and, ah, unoccupied, for more than a few hours without a soul in it.
(Yes, this was, as one might say, very unfortunate when that became an express route to "getting eating by a Chaos God." As usual, Chaos Ruins It For Everybody™)

Alectai said:
... It has not been long enough for Iyanden and Biel-Tan to become besties who'll fight for each other, right or wrong.
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Especially since they never actually were, see the latter dropping the former like a live grenade the moment said former went from "the most powerful and prosperous Craftworld" to "those weird necromancer people who got themselves eaten by Space Locusts".
 
LOLROFL said:
The second bit is linked with the first as the part about "pushback" isn't from the Craftworlds in general but rather from "the more conservative Craftworlds".

That obviously includes Majors like Biel Tan and Alaitoc plus any smaller ones that subscribe to a similar ideology but that wouldn't even be considered a majority of the Major Craftworlds as I wouldn't call Iyanden very conservative given the fact that they only reacted with mild disappointment to us outright rejecting their ambitions of bringing back the Aeldari empire.
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It could mean more conservative than us, which would include basically everyone.
 
Mechanis said:
Especially since they never actually were, see the latter dropping the former like a live grenade the moment said former went from "the most powerful and prosperous Craftworld" to "those weird necromancer people who got themselves eaten by Space Locusts".
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Speaking of friendships, do we have a good idea of how our allies view each other?

For example do any of the other Craftworlds or Exodite worlds that we are allied with feel revulsion towards the Ishari?

Or how they feel about us in general?
 
MajorCringe said:
The Ishari are a direct part of our explanation though, and is the closest thing to Isha's voice left amongst the craftworlders. Leaving them out could be portrayed as an insult, and any craft world that gets miffed about their soul modification will probably be distracted by the fact Isha still lives.
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Except we don't have proof that Isha lives. Just their word and ours, based on examination of the curse. We are attending as much to convince them of our findings as we are to spread the news. Things can still go wrong. We don't need the Ishari present to demonstrate nurgles curse and prove that he has Isha captive. We do need the Major Craft worlds calm and willing to let us try to explain and demonstrate our findings to them, rather than combative because we have challenged there views so directly.
LOLROFL said:
It is possible that depending on who we bring and the rolls that we could avoid pushback entirely or the severity of the pushback may change (could be better or worse).
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Yes, possible. Likelihood, is still an indication that pushback is likely. I'd say with Beil-tan here, pushback is almost certain, and it's a matter of which other worlds lend support to said pushback. Is that anything to risk the Aeldmoot for? Is that anything worth drawing conservative eyes and possibly wrath onto the Fea-eresh while their evacuation is yet incomplete?
gale said:
I wouldn't call Iyanden conservative lol, they are just as bad as the Ishari just in a very different way.
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A majority of craft worlds are conservative and getting worse at this point because of the curse. Iyanden isn't the worst, but their still there, and they are the most prideful, and a prideful Aeldari isn't going to take being told the plant person in front of them retains a connection to their goddess that they have lost well. Not without a lot of luck.
 
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Sad that we couldn't get a representative of Val-Terrine to come along with us. While they don't exactly bring a lot to the table militarily or industrially, "we helped you not starve to death" bought them our goodwill for the next several centuries minimum as far as I'm concerned which makes them an alliance member, and having more world-representatives in our collective retinue makes us look better no matter how minor the worlds.

And speaking of retinues, one thing I'm really looking forward to seeing here is what guests the Harlequins decide to bring. Not only did they introduce us to the Ishari in the first place which means they're very definitely in communication with a lot of radicals in corners of the galaxy that everyone else has forgotten about, they are also almost certainly still talking to a lot of webway-dwelling Eldar groups. If they bring a half-dozen webway-cities to the table (since not all of those have yet been welded together into Cormorragh) we could see a huge impact on that end of eldar culture- and the possibility to open up trade and diplomatic links which would otherwise be entirely closed to us, if our presented research on the state of all our souls brings respect from that direction as well. Depending on who exactly they decide to invite it's entirely possible that Irsfeial wouldn't be even close to the most controversial one here.
 
I am tired. So this is my last post until I wake up.

This is meeting of Aeldari by not inviting someone, most will conclude that uninvited party is no longer Aeldari.

People are unlikely to just ignore, us, Harlequins and Ulthwe on the matter of the 3 curses, and conservative debuff will probably impact other discutions.
Iyanden stoping kinstrife is their default by the simples 3rd grade interpretation of creation 2 of 2, and with this discovery we have Ulthwe and Saim-Hann to also put stop to it so we are good on that front. Some of our bonus objectives/potencial allies are likely on the will of the debuff but are likely to be somewhat replaceable eith radicals.
 
Alratan said:
It could mean more conservative than us, which would include basically everyone.
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Mmmkay that is I think a case of extrapolating a little too far. Do trust me to use language that would very clearly state "this will absolutely 100% cause [Nobody Liked That]" for options that would do so. There is a radical minority that still exists, that hasn't been hung out to die, forced into line for survival, or otherwise surpressed, there is a sufficient plurality of centrists and or people who just do not care anymore given the radically changed circumstances that it isn't a certain issue anymore even for the Craftworlders, and there will be extremely dangerous murder clowns looming at anyone trying to Start Shit™ because A) you are probably Cegoratch's third or fourth favorite people right now, and B) they're the ones who put you in contact with the Ishari to begin with, in case you have forgotten, and nobody that likes being alive (rather than turning up dead in as embarrassing a fashion as possible) goes around dissing the Harliquins.
 
Randino Treviani said:
the most important thing is to get them to accept our word on the curses three, and that will happen easier without a majority of the conservative major craft worlds not offended by the presence of a plant Aeldari. we can make the point your thinking of in a century or so, at a meeting less critical to our goal of uniting the majority of Aeldari against the forces of chaos and encouraging habits of mutual support.
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Pretty sure Draylin of the True Sight will give us all the credibility we need in that regard. When someone who has forgotten more about a subject than you will ever know tells you something about it and gives you a way to independently verify said information (I have to imagine those of our Seers who discovered the Curses kept notes on how they did it), few will be able to ignore such wisdom.
Alratan said:
More widely, one of the great things about this conference was that it allows us to bury the hatchet with Biel Tan, to smooth over the hate back to mere hostility.

That's a great thing. It lets us eliminate a 7 point flaw. Why on earth would be deliberately antagonise them and do our best to keep the feud alive.
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Have you forgotten about the whole "expose Biel-Tan's secret Kinstrife plans for all the Aeldari world to see" part of the agenda? That flaw ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
Alratan said:
How do we respond if a grief-stricken ex-Priestess of Isha says 'No true Priestess would ever have mutilated themselves like that, they're heretical liars who are probably a false front for a Haemunculi Coven trying to deceive and trap you and us in some terrible way!'
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We provide evidence to the contrary. The followers of Cegorach, disreputable as they are, would not stand for such a cruel and twisted deception.
 
Profilozof said:
I am tired. So this is my last post until I wake up.

This is meeting of Aeldari by not inviting someone, most will conclude that uninvited party is no longer Aeldari.

People are unlikely to just ignore, us, Harlequins and Ulthwe on the matter of the 3 curses, and conservative debuff will probably impact other discutions.
Iyanden stoping kinstrife is their default by the simples 3rd grade interpretation of creation 2 of 2, and with this discovery we have Ulthwe and Saim-Hann to also put stop to it so we are good on that front. Some of our bonus objectives/potencial allies are likely on the will of the debuff but are likely to be somewhat replaceable eith radicals.
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I don't think it's anything like a meeting of all the Eldar. I doubt the Haemunculi Covens have sent representatives, not the Solar Cults nor the major noble houses and their vassals of the various Webway Realms.

The significant if not overwhelming majority of living Eldar are probably not represented here.

And the Craftworld Eldar fully recognise the Webway Eldar as being Eldar. They disapprove of their lifestyle but they fully acknowledge them as moral actors, allow them to become member ls of their own society and (more often) go the other way, and in all ways think of them as being Eldar with all that implies, good and bad.

I don't think there's anything at all hinting that this conference will result in the Webway Noble Houses being declared or considered non-Eldar.
 
Profilozof said:
Some of our bonus objectives/potencial allies are likely on the will of the debuff but are likely to be somewhat replaceable eith radicals.
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Honestly, I think our opportunity to make nice with the serious conservatives has passed for the time being. Doing so with the two most conservative Major Craftworlds against us was already a tough sell. Granting the Ishari asylum has probably just ensured that any conservative alliance we forge will be nigh impossible to maintain once they inevitably discover the existence of the Ishari. Not unless we start treating them like second-class citizens, which is obviously a nonstarter.

Honestly, I am starting to suspect that such was an intentional result of the Harlequins introducing us to the Ishari. They've managed to box us in politically towards their preferred faction, but have done so with such skill that I can't even be upset about it.
 
LOLROFL said:
Took a read of the Ishari option and a few things stand out.

First is that pushback does not seem to be guaranteed as the specific drawback is "the likelihood of pushback " rather than just outright stating that there will be pushback.

It is possible that depending on who we bring and the rolls that we could avoid pushback entirely or the severity of the pushback may change (could be better or worse).

The second bit is linked with the first as the part about "pushback" isn't from the Craftworlds in general but rather from "the more conservative Craftworlds".

That obviously includes Majors like Biel Tan and Alaitoc plus any smaller ones that subscribe to a similar ideology but that wouldn't even be considered a majority of the Major Craftworlds as I wouldn't call Iyanden very conservative given the fact that they only reacted with mild disappointment to us outright rejecting their ambitions of bringing back the Aeldari empire.

Heck, the statement makes no mention of Exodites at all so it's possible that bringing the Ishari doesn't actually trigger any specific issue with them.
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Y'know that's a good point...If we talk about how the CURSE OF NURGLE is pushing them to such conclusions they will be at least for that time made to question their initial reactions. On top of that, we'll probably get support from most Exodite contingents for both our actions and show them the mother has provided other paths.

Edit: I feel as though at least a couple of Exodite worlds would take in some of the Ishari. Sam-hain might be willing to push their continued existence and Ulthwe also might see their Greenseers as another clue for their Path of the Seer.
 
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Mechanis said:
Mmmkay that is I think a case of extrapolating a little too far. Do trust me to use language that would very clearly state "this will absolutely 100% cause [Nobody Liked That]" for options that would do so. There is a radical minority that still exists, that hasn't been hung out to die, forced into line for survival, or otherwise surpressed, there is a sufficient plurality of centrists and or people who just do not care anymore given the radically changed circumstances that it isn't a certain issue anymore even for the Craftworlders, and there will be extremely dangerous murder clowns looming at anyone trying to Start Shit™ because A) you are probably Cegoratch's third or fourth favorite people right now, and B) they're the ones who put you in contact with the Ishari to begin with, in case you have forgotten, and nobody that likes being alive (rather than turning up dead in as embarrassing a fashion as possible) goes around dissing the Harliquins.
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Ahh. Well, if it's a choice between Iyanden or the one people with god still backing them, I guess we can afford to take the Fea-eresh, even if I'd rather not. Here's hoping this won't fuck everything up.
Hunter531 said:
Honestly, I think our opportunity to make nice with the serious conservatives has passed for the time being. Doing so with the two most conservative Major Craftworlds against us was already a tough sell. Granting the Ishari asylum has probably just ensured that any conservative alliance we forge will be nigh impossible to maintain once they inevitably discover the existence of the Ishari. Not unless we start treating them like second-class citizens, which is obviously a nonstarter.
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I think your overestimating one of those craft worlds hatred of us. Beil Tan is the only one that hates us. The other one, I'm bad with name, doesn't exactly approve, but they'll have other radicals to focus their ire on and shift to hating nurgle if we can convince them Isha is alive, which will probably shift us to neutral but not getting on the bad side of.

Once we have a stop gap solution for the curse of nurgle that gives us half decent odds of getting the Aeldari to overcome the stagnation rather than a 1/100 chance, we can start leveraging all the good we've done and our presumably grown in membership and power alliance to help the conservative become less self destructively conservative by arguing it weakens nurgle.

For now though, maybe leave the Ishari out of the meeting. There is a chaos god that would love to push this meeting into a cascading spiral by way of stagnant views and stobborn minds clashing with something new and unexpected.
 
I am being more and more convinced that we should stand by the Ishari. If we make enemies so be it. But they are what we stand for and we should stick to our guns. We can attract more radicals to our banner to form the third faction of the Aeldari.

I am also curious who Ceogorachs second favorite is. What illustrious company we keep.
 
Alratan said:
I don't think it's anything like a meeting of all the Eldar. I doubt the Haemunculi Covens have sent representatives, not the Solar Cults nor the major noble houses and their vassals of the various Webway Realms.
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All Aeldari who are opposed to the Ruinous Powers then. Any member of those groups who is politically connected enough to be named a delegate would more likely than not horrifically sabotage the proceedings so they could feed on the resulting suffering. The Ishari provide no such easy excuse for not including them.
 
Mechanis said:
Perhaps among the eldest of Aeldari still living, it is clear that Draylin's life is coming to a close, wizened and stooped, his mundane sight long since dimmed—yet even diminished and aged, the ancient Seer can wield his Sight with an acuity that few others can match,
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Does that mean that if he's present everything we do is immediately leaked to Kairos? If he's using seersight as a replacement for regular sight.

Otherwise, I see no issue with a plan to bring at least one person from everyone we ally to. That's going to be our statement and it's a fine one.
 
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vsh said:
Does that mean that if he's present everything we do is immediately leaked to Kairos? If he's using seersight as a replacement for regular sight.

Otherwise, I see no issue with a plan to bring at least one person from everyone we ally to. That's going to be our statement and it's a fine one.
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Curse hasn't developed to that level yet, and we're liable to do some serious damage to it in the Aeldmoot too.
 
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