Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
If we bring Draylin the Seerlord that might catch the interest of Eldead and Ulthwe in the hopes he drops some pearls.
A Different Breed (Warhammer 29K)
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the most important thing is to get them to accept our word on the curses three, and that will happen easier without a majority of the conservative major craft worlds not offended by the presence of a plant Aeldari. we can make the point your thinking of in a century or so, at a meeting less critical to our goal of uniting the majority of Aeldari against the forces of chaos and encouraging habits of mutual support.
which is going to super offend Iyanden and put their acceptance of our word in jeopardy. it's one thing to tell them Nurgle pulled a fast one and got the best of all of us. another to flaunt this Aeldari plant person who claims to still have connection to her in front of them and risk there wounded pride causing them to reject her words and ours. let's not create a situation where Iyanden has incentive to turn this into a pissing contest about who is and isn't a proper priest or priestess od isha.
there is a difference of scale between much of what we are doing and the potential backlash of bringing the fea eresh with us, because Iyanden are the biggest stick up there ass Aeldari and the existence of Aeldari who retain a connection to Isha while they have failed to has potential to set them off like nothing else.
We don't have to deal with it right now at the risk of discrediting our argument or undermining the conference we've just called by turning it into a shit show of an argument about trans-Eldarism or accusing us of being Haemonculi and so inherently untrustworthy. That's not certain or perhaps even very likely to happen if we bring her, but given how critical this is why take any risk of it at all?
We've not done any trans-Eldarism yet, after all. No one else would know that we might in future.
Why borrow trouble from the future? Let it stay there when it belongs.
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Let me ask you a question: when do you think there will be a better time to cleanse the name of trans-eldarists? We plan to join that path, it is our entire path to deny Slaneash, take our souls and reforge them. In certain view Ishatari are more conservative than us, under all of those plants their souls are the same as those of conservatives. Ours won't be.
Now is the time to proclaim to the centrists and swayable conservatives that other ways to surive aren't straight up evil.
What other miracle could we achcive that will make them shut up and listen. Now is the time to make statement that "dispite our diffrences we are in the end, all children of Isha, no matter what way we have chosen to survive and deny the great enemy"
Personally I think it would be best to bring Irsfeial because there are going to be very little trans-Eldarists at the moot.
Because eventually we are going to go that route and we don't want to set expectations that trans-Eldarists aren't real Eldar. We also are going to have to deal with cultural side effects of Nurgle's curse so getting the rest of the Eldar accustomed to non-Dark Eldar trans-Eldarists is probably a good idea. Finally as someone who has already been soul forged it will be good to bring her perspective of it as a possible way going forward beyond her being a priestess of Isha.
Because eventually we are going to go that route and we don't want to set expectations that trans-Eldarists aren't real Eldar. We also are going to have to deal with cultural side effects of Nurgle's curse so getting the rest of the Eldar accustomed to non-Dark Eldar trans-Eldarists is probably a good idea. Finally as someone who has already been soul forged it will be good to bring her perspective of it as a possible way going forward beyond her being a priestess of Isha.
Never. If the Dark Eldar and Haemunculi Coven Codex can be believed, the original Trans-Eldarists and their ideology have f self-transformation were an integral and critical part of the degradation of Eldar society that lead to the rise of worship of the Dark Muses and the rejection and weakening of the Pantheon. It's an ideology that is almost directly responsible for the birth of Slaneesh and the Fall of the Eldar.
I think most Eldar who aren't Haemunculi or dependent on them will always hate them.
The best I think we'll manage is for other Eldar to think that trans-eldarists are tomorrow's problem, and should only be addressed after today's problem Chaos, is dealt with, and before then, like the Haemunculi, they can be grudgingly tolerated and traded with for pragmatic mutual advantage. No one likes or trusts them, but their skills and products are valuable enough that their customers can get past that.
As I said before, the one thing that even the murder cultists of the Core Worlds and the Craftworlders agreed on was that the trans-Eldarism was unacceptable, which is why the Haemunculi had to hide in the depths of the Webway, as I understand it. That's how bad a rep they have.
If we ever do want to change minds, it's with gradual steps to introduce the idea gently, in private and with caution. Not with a dramatic public statement where people are being observed by peers who they have to maintain face in front of. It's just about the worst possible way to change people's minds. That's the way to make people dig their heels in and harden their position.it forces them to crystallise their view in a way that makes it very hard to graciously back down, so it cements division, and when the room is generally against you, cements it in a way that's likely not in your favour, as neutrals will see the way the wind is blowing, side against you, and then become locked into their public stance.
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- Location
- his hidden lair
That's why we're bringing multiple leaders of our coalition- we're not the only ones who have had dealings with her considering we explicitly asked our allies for help in relocating her people. If they can't accept that Isha is alive without us bringing a Priestess here despite other independent Craftworld leaders confirming our claims, then they're probably going to question all the other very bold claims we're here to make anyways.
Besides- the Harlequins are going to be here. And they'll be backing our claims with or without her being present.
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This is not a provocation. This Aeldmoot and Irsfeial and Ishatari are Aeldari. I shall not go quietly (to sleep) without defending their rights to representation and by it personhood.
Also, if the conservatives are so fickle as to willing ignore the warnings against the great enemy because they saw a tree person then I don't want them even as nurglite fodder when the time will come to fight in the depths of nurgle's garden where compasion, not contempt, will be our greatest shield.
We have oldest rational seer as witness, we had no casulties in research, we didn't even trip chaos about our discovery, we are so confident about it that we people who were probably known for wishing death on Khaine are się willing to praise him and we have high priestess of Isha to confirm our discovery.
If someone is willing to ignore us because said priestess uses a tree instead of soulstone then I say may their deaths be swift and without colatteral damage when they inevidably fall of the cliff because they had their head in their ass
So uh, what are we going to do then when we get asked what we are planning to do with regards to the curses? Say nothing and have them find out later about the soul forging. Tell them straight up and get accused of wanting to be like the webway trans-Eldarists.
Better to bring Irsfeial and show the rest of the craftworlds that while it does have some downsides it doesn't automatically make you a dark Eldar. Especially since the soul forging that was done to her faction was done as a religious act that enabled them to foresee the fall. She is the best foot forward we are going to have in this and so it will be best to show our support of the Ishari before we share that label as well.
Thing is that these disputes didn't become irrelevant just because the Fall occurred, as demonstrated by Biel-Tan being potentially responsible for the Ishari's eventual demise. Plus, I don't much care for taking representatives of all parts of our coalition to a pan-Aeldari meeting save the one who could be argued aren't Aeldari. It sends a certain message if and when folks find out about the Ishari later.
Tell them that we're still investigating the Curses and that we literally don't know. IC we don't. OOC we know we probably need to so soul modification, but IC we're probably hoping we have another miraculous success and find a clever trick to defuse it without needing to.
For example, imagine if we kill Kairos with the deathsword, rescue Isha, and proclaim her Queen of the Phoenix Court in exile in the Web ay. That seems like it might theoretically work to break all the curses, no soul modification required. If asked, we can propose a plan like that. It's ambitious, but seems like if we try hard enough we could manage, and the Eldar are probably still arrogant enough to believe they could manage it.
The point about trans-eldarism is that the Craftworld Eldar think it'a, as I understand it, inherently evil and inherently heresy, as it's rejecting the will of the gods whose children they are and who defined their shape.
Frankly, it's more important that the conference succeeds. The Ishari, while important in their own right, is of tertiary priority in comparison.
We're not here to change people the minds of people who hate the idea of trans-Eldar I am for what they think ar every good reasons.
We're here to convince them that the Curses are real and that people should focus on that rather than anything else. As a side benefit that should include not bothering about people like the Ishari, as they're a lower priority that the Curse for everyone. The Ishari want to be a lower priority.
It is not good for them for us to widely publicise their existence and make revealing them a big political deal on this stage. We don't want this conference to be about 'the curses and the Ishari' that suggests that the issue of the Ishari and similar people is or similar enough importance to the Curses for political statements regarding them to be relevant at the conference.
Highlighting them suggests that they aren't something that can be safely disregarded for now because the Curse is more important. The very people who have brought everyone here to talk about the Curse are also making it clear that the Ishari and similar can't just be be ignored for now.
The Ishari almost certainly want to be ignored.
More widely, one of the great things about this conference was that it allows us to bury the hatchet with Biel Tan, to smooth over the hate back to mere hostility.
That's a great thing. It lets us eliminate a 7 point flaw. Why on earth would be deliberately antagonise them and do our best to keep the feud alive.
They will hopefully now become irrelevant because of the Curses being revealed as long as we don't make a big deal about the Ishari and elevate their perceived importance by having their existence be a thing that's relevant as the same conference that is about the reveal of the Curses. Revealing them and the Curses at the same time is not the way to get people to ignore them.
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You would and probably are correct in the case of most conservatives (or more likely reactionaries), but you forget that said public display is the greatest discovery in post fall history.
Also, you are incorrect. Gradual change is possible when there isn't evil example of said change but if there is one you need a dramatic example that it can be diffrent.
Trans eldarism needs to be planted as not something that's always evil first before we can convert people to our way of thinking. Especially in the case of eldar who last time when they tried to slowly and peacefully change the minds of majority, they failed and the fall happened. Eldar are stuborn people and without drastic/dramatic trigger most won't change their minds, and priestess of Isha sharing the news to her fellow children that mom lives, is in my opinion the most dramatic and important way for them to see her (and others) as kin.
Also, we aren't telling people to abandon flesh and embrace the leaf, we are telling them that people who embraced the leaf are still children of Isha.
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and if it doesn't work? if the Iyanden leadership gets horrifically offended at the mere notion of a trans-eldararist who retain there connection to Isha while they have lost it, decide this was a waste of time, convince most of the other conservatives to storm off with them, and Beil Tan leaves not blocked from attacking us by the acceptance of our revelation about the nature of the curses afflicting us, but actively encouraged to put an end to us and joined by Iyanden in the venture, what will we do then? beat our chests and decide we've struck an important blow against Aeldari conservatives? no. we'll abandoned all our plans, go back to scrabbling to fix our military, and watch the grand opportunity to expand our alliance and dedicate effort to saving other Aeldari worlds in peril collapse around us.
There not fickle, there prideful and traumatized by the recent apocalypse. We know what this leads to in the original timeline. No, twenty years later and some fundamental work done to discover this with no time to demonstrate it because their focused on yet another blow to esteem is not enough to be ready for this.
What your proposing is not some stand for trans-Aeldari rights. It's a self righteous "Your views are wrong" chest beating that endangers Fea-Eresh by possibly drawing the ire of Iyanden or attention of an unchained Beil-tan into them, potentially causing the burning of their world before we can finish evacuating it. It is not noble. It is not a necessary risk taken in the name of acceptance of Trans-Aeldari. It is grand standing in ignorance of the potential harm done not just against those the major craft world may lash out against in there grief and willful ignorance, but also the billions of Aeldari who also lose out if their representatives leave this Aeldmoot unconvinced of the information we have learned.
Trillions have died already. We do not need to risk the souls and lives of billions more for an ideological statement that brings unnecessary risk.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
... Iyanden doesn't hate us, they're 'Mildly disappointed' at worst.
Alaitoc doesn't like us, but not to the point of Kinstrife, Biel-Tan hates us to that point, Saim-Hann likes us, Ulthwe doesn't care (But damn well likely will real soon), and Iyanden was largely ambivalent. I sincerely doubt that they'd suddenly sign off on exterminating us when we brought hard evidence that can very well improve their own efforts by no small amount.
Alaitoc doesn't like us, but not to the point of Kinstrife, Biel-Tan hates us to that point, Saim-Hann likes us, Ulthwe doesn't care (But damn well likely will real soon), and Iyanden was largely ambivalent. I sincerely doubt that they'd suddenly sign off on exterminating us when we brought hard evidence that can very well improve their own efforts by no small amount.
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The Froggy Ninja
The Blade Will Never Die
Ha! I was right in my interpretation of their world-rune!
He's the kind of infuriating wise old master who quizzes you on parts of the textbook he hasn't assigned yet and hits you with the enlightenment stick if you get it wrong because you should have been reading ahead.
How does a dramatic reveal of the Ishari at the same time as we're revealing two shocking claims about additional curses. It's hardly an unalloyed good thing to be associated with.
How do we respond if a grief-stricken ex-Priestess of Isha says 'No true Priestess would ever have mutilated themselves like that, they're heretical liars who are probably a false front for a Haemunculi Coven trying to deceive and trap you and us in some terrible way!'
And to be fair, it's exactly the kind of thing a Haemunculi Coven might actually try. They do actually go around radically modifying other people's bodies, minds and souls, including other Eldar's and may well be capable of pulling a con like this, quite possibly with the Ishari being unaware they were pasties.
Particularly in this era, when the Haemunculi may still be using some of their psyker powers, and relics of their activities Pre-Fall when they had all their powers would be more prevalent.
I'm not saying that's bound to happen, or even likely, but the presence of the Ishari gives several ways for people who are doubtful to attack our credibility, and at even more likely to just cause a distraction and dissension that gets in the way of what we actually want to achieve.
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Also there is Nurgle's curse forcing the Eldar towards conservatism and stagnation.
If we don't push back on cultural trends they will get unnaturally set in stone eventually due to the chaos god on the other end of Isha 's connection to our souls.
Which is why we bring along the Ishari as they explicitly did their soulforging as a more extreme version of religious practices for Isha due to the Curses.
And from what it sounds like before they tangled themselves to the planets biosphere they were doing things that were acceptable if only to be expected to be done in a religious commune.
It is 4 am for me so I will be brief.
I think that people who deny others personhood because that's ultimately at the core of political statement here.
Can die for all I care, they are willing to deny Isha her children. This is bad given that Isha's love for us her children is the main source of her resitance to nurgle.
If we ofended Iyanden your warnings/scenario could be taken into consideration by me but with Ulthwe and Saim-Hann very likely to support us, Iyanden will be forced to listen to logic and evidence, which is on our side.
We are students of Vaul, god who was willing to take risks for his friends and family.
You are living in fear of failure, but we didn't achive this miracle by being scared of risks. If conservatives leave, so be it. The fate of eldari will be left in the hands of children who didn't forget their Mother's teachings.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
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- Absconding with Alacrity
In fact, it was not just acceptable but canonically a thing that Eldar sometimes just did before the Fall happened.
You had Eldar spending years as a tree or a bird or whatever, just because they could, essentially.
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Also if we present our findings of the Curse first we will certainly earn enough political leeway for Iyanden to tighten its leash around Biel-tan and Altioc. They currently don't care much about us.
From another perspective, we are proposing a method that will allow us to maintain a lot more of our Technological base by freeing up more of our Psychic potential to run our Constructs. Even when they figure out the Soul Stone loophole for Wraithbone Mechas they don't work as well as the Dominions since you know...
There are other ways of innovation than radical self-modification. Just because the Craftworld Eldar don't embrace the exact same practices that we're told lead to the Fall
As I understand it, temporarily possessing another body was Ok. Permanently modifying yourself to be part plant is not. It's like how fasting can be fine but starving yourself to death isn't. Sometimes a change of degree becomes a change of kind.
Two things:
1) This isn't about denying someone's personhood. It's about the bioconservatives saying that they've committed a mortal sin They're still an Eldar, just as Heamonculi are still Eldar. They're just criminals/heretics/evil because of their actions. That's very different. It's not nice. But it's different. Basically, everyone hates Haemunculi, so you don't want to look like a Haemunculi, or you'll suffer guilt by association.
2) Given how Eldar are Deva of their gods radical self-transformation may actually be problematic, as it may have undesired impacts on those gods, as below, so above style, so they may actually have a point.
3) It's not them who are likely to do the dying in this scenario. The trans-Eldarists are likely the much weaker side who need the rest's help. Deliberately drawing attention to the differences and making them stronger and not focusing on the major issue everyone faces does not help.
Yes, but as I understand it the difference is that they could always turn back? They were just temporarily occupying a different form and could always just return to their own body?
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Precisely. It's Biel-Tan, sitting at their side who hate us, and will be all to eager to cast this in the worst light possible to galvanize Iyanden against, if not us, then at least Fea-eresh, especially with their own views.
Yes, we aren't telling anyone that, but people leap to their own conclusions, before the eager to Kinslay us Beil-Tan Bluntly declares that we are saying that Fea-eresh is worthier than the Priestesses of Isha of the craft world Iyanden. True? Of course not. Stinging to Iyanden pride regardless and possibly something they'll convince themselves of as more shocks are introduced as the meeting goes on? Very likely.
That's easier said than done when nurgle is the only chaos god paying attention and really pushing his curse to accomplish what it's meant to of the three Chaos gods who have a curse upon us. We are planning develop a means of suppressing or shielding the Aeldari from the effects of Nurgles Curse, and to someday Rescue Isha.
The time to push these issues is after we accomplish one of these, not now, when the Aeldari attending can just slip back into conservative ways once we return north and don't have contact with them for centuries. Not now, while Nurgle is but one of three forces impairing the Aeldari's ability to move forward and recover from the fall. We do more to ensure that the stagnancy ends by focusing on getting them to accept our warning than we do by pushing the political and ideological issue now.
Yes, Isha loves her children, and would not want us to risk the welfare, souls, and lives of billions of them for the sake of taking a single point. They deny Isha's children their acknowledgement. They can not deny her children to her, unless of course, they burn Fea Eresh and Kill some of the few of her children she still maintains strong connection to.
So in other words, when it's too late, when we have in part failed our goal here and a great retribution may now be aimed at Fea-eresh, you'll reconsider things? Precisely what good does that do? How much safer for our post update consideration is the world of Fea Eresh going to be?
We achieved this precisely by being scared of risking failing the curse action and investing no less than 5 seer AP per turn while we investigated it. We continue to make major Seer AP investments in this same fear, because Warhammer is a dangerous place and the Aeldari are a touchy people. It's no time to stop now. We were flexible and willing to make compromises to look for a more permanent solution to the Aeldari problem of Slaanesh. Not carelessly picking the hardest solution out of fearlessness.
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The Ishari are a direct part of our explanation though, and is the closest thing to Isha's voice left amongst the craftworlders. Leaving them out could be portrayed as an insult, and any craft world that gets miffed about their soul modification will probably be distracted by the fact Isha still lives.