Actually, I don't think this whole thing will lead to irreparable consequences, because PMAS Hijiri is a different enough character. As you yourself have said.

I'll go back to lurking after this, because this whole thing is getting very silly.
We can't condemn them, but we can make inferences about their behaviors and mindsets, particularly if our observations inside PMAS agree with what we'd infer from canon. For example, we can absolutely infer that Mami is one of the most vulnerable people we know to being witchbombed. We can absolutely infer that Homura would be totally in lesbians with Madoka if she could conceptualize such a thing. And in this case, we can absolutely infer that Hijiri's issue center around control, being a "replacement", being cast aside when no longer of use, and so on and so forth. All of which would equally clearly cause her to explode with rage if we gemmed her - even if we did it for a second, the simple fact that we did it intentionally, that we exerted that control over her in exactly the way that she feared and hated, that would send her out of control. And you can see this in what she's been worrying about in PMAS. On top of that, you'll note that this is not a situation where we want to take a chance. How sure are you that she won't flip out? Are you sure enough that you're willing to gamble that she'll end up dead because of it? Recall, again, that "This vote fails deadly" are not words that belong in PMAS.
look

we have several potential solutions yeah?

we don't need to resort to gemming her

this is a discussion that doesn't need to be happening

discuss other options

don't just harp on about how bad an idea this one thing is
Unfortunately, the problem is that some people think that it's not going to cause trouble. In fact, so many people think that it's perfectly A-okay that it's IN THE FUCKING LEAD! So no! We actually can't just stop "harping" about how bad this is, because there are people here that are driving the quest off a cliff because they think that it's not wrong.
 
[x]Vebyast
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Dec 12, 2017 at 6:21 PM, finished with 325 posts and 37 votes.

  • [X] One action: Take Hijiri's Gem.
    -[X] If she's still in range afterwards, restrain her.
    -[X] If that fails, if feasible, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range. Rush her if she stops moving towards us.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashbang style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [x] Do not stop Hijiri. Maintain telepathic contact.
    -[x] Maybe Mami can do her invisible intangible ribbon tracking thing, but don't press it.
    [x] Telepathically: "Hijiri, I misspoke. When I said I couldn't give you what you want, I meant it's something I can help with; you still need to do your part."
    -[x] "I'm sorry for how this is going so far; I never wanted you to be hurt. I thought I might be in the best position to help you, because we came into being in similar ways."
    --[x] "Please, hear me out. Let me help you until there's nothing more we can do. It's not over, don't give up."
    ---[x] "You can still live the life YOU want to life. YOUR life, not Niko's. But not if you do this. Please, Hijiri. You control your own future, right now. Your actions right now decide everything."
    [x] So she's giving up because her perfect life can't be handed to her on a platter? It'd be ironic if it weren't so pathetic. She needs to try harder if she wants to achieve her goals.
    [x] After that, broadcast, including to Hijiri: Let her go. She's not going to try anything.
    [x] Hand tracking of Anri off to another sensor suite - grief telescope, more focused Mami ribbons, something else - and disconnect so Mami can start getting back up to speed.
    [x] Fade back to buy time.
    [x] Tell the Pleiades to form a perimeter.
    [X] null
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Have Mami restrain Anri -- and have Mami grab her soul gem, too. Don't communicate that out loud, use telepathy.
    -[X] If Anri gets away, sic the other eight meguca here on her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [x] Gem her
    [X] "Do you think you're the only person here who was created by a wish to fulfill a purpose? You're not! I know your circumstances suck, I really do, but that's not a reason to make this situation worse when we're here to actually help you."
    [x] Shield yourself and Mami; open the roof to let Hijiri go.
    -[x] Telepathy Hijiri: Tell her to just go. Apologize. You hoped things would've gone better; you were even excited to find someone like yourself at some point.
    [X] Fully encase her in Grief, pulling from all of the Grief that's immediately available closest to her. Yank her Soul Gem--though don't take it out of range. She'll only lose the connection if she teleports out herself.
    [x] "I think I was also created by someone's wish, Hijiri. I was hoping we'd be able to connect over that. Please stay and we can work this out together"
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri ASAP.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [X]Immediately: Apply stabs/griefwalling for teleport interrupt
    [X]Keep Hijiri and Airi cleansed
    [X]Pleiades:
    -[X]Stand by, we'll have Airi contained in just a moment.
    -[X]Could someone bus in the Kures?
    [X]Hijiri:
    -[X]We were created to help people-- everyone-- but our good will is finite and she is grievously abusing it.
    -[X]She gets one more chance to tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help her God, and we will let her go.
    --[X]What did she Wish for?
    ---[X]To escape and live a peaceful life: Call Hijiri out on her bullshit, demand answers-- she's either lying through her teeth or really fucking stupid.
    ---[X]To kill Niko/the Pleiades/see them suffer: We understand. Let her go; she can have a happier life somewhere else, and we're still willing to give her cleansing. However, she is banished from Asunaro effective immediately, on pain of death.
    -[X]Apply stabs to any further teleportation attempts until we're done with her
    [X]Gem Airi the moment she's in range; pursue if she attempts to escape
    [X] Cause Hijiri physical pain.
    -[X] If that fails, if feasible, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range. Rush her if she stops moving towards us.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashbang style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [X] Any vote that doesn't involve deliberately hurting a 14 year old girl.
 
Actually, I don't think this whole thing will lead to irreparable consequences, because PMAS Hijiri is a different enough character. As you yourself have said.

I'll go back to lurking after this, because this whole thing is getting very silly.

You don't play Russion Roulette just because you only have 1-in-6 chance of dying, dude. If you can't guarantee that there's 0% chance of Hijiri reacting in this way, it is immoral to condone voting for this. You're risking destroying a girl's sanity because it's convenient in the short term. What the actual fuck, you guys. STOP IT.
 
Okay just... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but IIRC we have yet to actually confirm even the existence of the freezer in this timeline? Let alone Hijiri knowing about it?
 
The freezer shouldn't exist if Kazumi didn't witch in front of the Pleadies, and she hasn't. I guess that's the silver lining here: we saved Kazumi, and it was easy.
But isn't the entire problem with gemming that people think Hijiri knows about the freezer and will freak out if we gem her because of it being related to that?

So if no freezer, why is gemming Hijiri such a huge problem?
 
But isn't the entire problem with gemming that people think Hijiri knows about the freezer and will freak out if we gem her because of it being related to that?

So if no freezer, why is gemming Hijiri such a huge problem?
No, what they're saying is that since Hijiri flipped out so badly in reaction to the implied Lichbomb from the Freezer, we shouldn't Lichbomb Hijiri by yanking out her Soul Gem.
 
But isn't the entire problem with gemming that people think Hijiri knows about the freezer and will freak out if we gem her because of it being related to that?

So if no freezer, why is gemming Hijiri such a huge problem?
Gemmimg her would be the equivalent of the freezer. She would realize that we didn't mean any of our talk about choices and just want her to obey like the nice doll she is.
 
Gemmimg her would be the equivalent of the freezer. She would realize that we didn't mean any of our talk about choices and just want her to obey like the nice doll she is.

Isn't that a non-sequitur though? We're trying to stop her from running off with our clear seed. There are several reasons to stop her from running here and wanting her to just obey is literally the least of them.
 
Isn't that a non-sequitur though? We're trying to stop her from running off with our clear seed. There are several reasons to stop her from running here and wanting her to just obey is literally the least of them.
She doesn't have a clear seed. The other girl does. Stopping her has nothing to do with recovering the clear seed.

e: And the objection doesn't matter what our reasons are, it matters how she thinks and feels about our actions.
 
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The problem is that she would treat degemming as an attempt to control her like a puppet by cutting her strings, because she's trying to move and act in a way the proverbial puppeteer doesn't like.

Her anxiety is over being a real person and she can't feel like she is if we switch her off by remote control, and she canonically flips her fucking shit over the Freezer's existence enough to add five names to her Murder List because they did it to other girls.

[x] Vebyast

@Vebyast I'm giving you my bandwagon, but would like a way to squeeze the 'Wishborn' thing into the vote, because I feel like it's critically important.
 
So, hang on, I want to take a really hard look at the history here. My understand of things goes something like this:

At some point in the last couple weeks Hijiri observed the Pleiades fighting a witch, and was then contacted by Kyubey, who informed her that she was a clone created by Niko while helpfully omitting the "how" and "why," maybe even implying some horrible shit without actually saying anything explicitly. She contracted, making a wish to the effect of becoming connected to the Pleiades, which is why she has their powers, and planned some degree of malicious action against them, or perhaps just against Niko.

The likelihood of her making the same general sort of wish as she did in canon, which is necessary in order to have the Pleiades' powers, and not planning malicious action against them given that she had to talk to Kyubey in order to contract and never spoke with the Pleiades between contracting and today... I'd be disappointed in Kyubey if she wasn't planning malicious action against the Pleiades, I mean, how could he not engineer that at that point. It certainly fits with how she reacted to Niko. Her getting this info from Kyubey is both canon and necessity -- there is no other actor that could have provided the "you're a clone" information to her.

She then ran into Airi and recruited her, figuring she'd make a useful, if batshit crazy, pawn. Then came yesterday, when very suddenly half of the Pleiades left town. It was too good an opportunity to pass up, she had to do something while they were away, or risk Airi deciding she was too soft. We know what she's done since then, if not necessarily what she's thought -- and I'll note that following her conversation with Niko she's acted very, very differently. Her desperation has to be genuine -- she's neither sufficiently badass to fake it nor would its absence make any sense assuming that Kyubey implied Bad Things about how + why Niko created Hijiri.

TL;DR: Hijiri drank the QB's kool-aid.

There is zero evidence at this point to suggest that Hijiri is actively out to screw over the Pleiades as a whole. For one thing, she didn't get to that point until the Freezer reveal in canon; for another thing, whatever story Kyubey got her to believe, it clearly didn't jibe with what she ran into speaking with Niko.

So, for a moment, let's consider the repercussions of letting Hijiri go. The main concern is that this will damage relations w/ the Pleiades. I think we can throw that out safely.

First and foremost, it is, in fact, understandable that we did not expect her to suddenly pull out fast travel / teleportation when she made no use whatsoever of it when we were chasing her the first damn time. If she'd fled by other means we would've contained her, if she'd attacked us we would've contained her, etcetera. We, the thread, didn't see this coming. If we had we might have tried to do something about it. Somebody will disagree with that statement, I'm sure, but the fact is that the last two votes did not anticipate this action.

Secondly, we have no means of containment which is not excessive. Yanking her soul gem is excessive -- whatever her previous motives, she has changed since her conversation with Niko... more than that, I think we have to ask whether Niko would have condoned us trying to hold Hijiri with that sort of method. I don't believe she would have -- she wanted Hijiri let down from the cocoon of ribbons/paper/etc the first time, I just... I don't think Niko would want us to harm Hijiri, period. Given that, the question of "legality" resolves itself favorably -- the victim doesn't want to press charges, so to speak. If this were Oriko back in book 1 I'd be voting to yank her gem and maybe do more than that, but Niko pretty clearly isn't interested in Hijiri coming to real harm, and, I reiterate, we have no way to hold her currently that doesn't bring her to real harm.

I think based on that we can formulate a vote which lets Hijiri go without meaningfully harming relations with the Pleiades just by being honest about the issues we're having with this vote. Any action that we expect would be effective at holding her is excessive, and we weren't prepared for this because we didn't expect it to happen, at least not the way it did.

I'm really hoping this is gonna be my final vote here.

[X] Let Hijiri go.
-[X] ... unless Mami can stop her with ribbons, in which case, emphatically do not stop Mami from stopping Hijiri with ribbons.
-[X] Reply to Hijiri via telepathy: I think you'll find that the "can's" and "cant's" of the world are very different from how Kyubey would imply them to be. Lying by omission has been the majority of his job since before the dawn of history, not that he'd characterize it that way.
[X] Have Mami snag Anri.
[X] Telepathy the Pleiades, Sayaka, Mami: Hijiri, it would seem, has the entire powerset, including teleportation and fast transit. Why she didn't just break that out the first time you have no idea, but you completely failed to anticipate it and you had no way to stop her without excessive force, which... you don't think Niko would have wanted. Anri is caught and has the clear seed with her.

What we do after this is in question. We need to talk to Anri, but we'll also want to discuss Hijiri with the Pleiades -- what does Niko want done, we're pretty sure Hijiri's actions & her perception of Niko were feat. QB's kool-aid, etcetera.
 
There is zero evidence at this point to suggest that Hijiri is actively out to screw over the Pleiades as a whole. For one thing, she didn't get to that point until the Freezer reveal in canon; for another thing, whatever story Kyubey got her to believe, it clearly didn't jibe with what she ran into speaking with Niko.
Until this, I was of the belief that Hijiri would probably kill someone if we let her go. But I'm okay with this. It has offensive action against Anri. It has an ultimatum that we can actually deliver. It has a mea culpa to the Pleiades.

Regarding other things, I've been sufficiently convinced that gemming Hijiri is an awful idea. I think a wishborn mention would be too little too late at this point. I like the line "legs are a privilege, not a right," but it's more brutal than is likely necessary.

[X] Kaizuki
 
TIL Anri isn't a pushover. Somebody will probably put up a "beat the shit out of anri" subvote and I'll kind of take that and use it. Because we're gonna beat the shit out of Anri.
 

My biggest problem with letting her go isn't that it will hurt anything with the Pleiades. The problem is what happens after she leaves us. It looks like you're counting on her sticking around which...okay, you know, that's kind of fair. But if you're wrong and she leaves town like Vebyast and Aura Twilight have suggested, we can't track her that far and we've allowed her to stumble into the typical fate of puella magi - i.e. death or witching out, likely sooner rather than later, because if we can't find her we can't help her and she is completely unaware of most of the dangers of being a magical girl. That's assuming she doesn't, for instance, develop the Evil Nuts in a different situation and commit a minor genocide off where we can't see her, but that's pretty extreme and would probably require kyubey manipulation somewhere since she doesn't seem really insane here.

The biggest reason I, at least, am voting for gemming is that it's the only option that has us as part of the equation deciding if something goes horribly wrong. If she runs off out of town, there's very little chance she doesn't die or witch eventually if we can't help her. If we leave her to her own devices, that means we're functionally trusting her not to do something stupid that will get herself or others hurt, and she has done very little to earn that trust. The evidence just isn't compelling that she's going to snap if we gem her. And if she does, her briefly going crazy is a much better option than her being dead or killing people. It is entirely possible for people to recover from psychotic breaks. It is not possible to recover from dying.

That's my problem with the "let her go" camp. Gemming her might be bad in the short run but at least has the potential for her to come out healthy. I just can't see how letting her go ends well for her. What am I missing there?
 
That's my problem with the "let her go" camp. Gemming her might be bad in the short run but at least has the potential for her to come out healthy. I just can't see how letting her go ends well for her. What am I missing there?

Not a lot, but the alternative is "we can't let you go because you might die if you went off alone."

My hope is that she'll float for several hours and then telepathy us going "wait, everything I thought was true was from Kyubey. He can lie...?"

Because... all of the ideas she has that lead to her thinking she needs to / wants to leave Asunaro / flee the Pleiades / dislike the Pleiades... it's entirely Kyubey. There is... minimal reason for her to dislike Niko in reality except for the part where she's a bit of a creepy stalker.

If that doesn't work out...? I'd rather let her wander off on her own than force her to stay for her safety. I'm... I'm American like that.
 
I know I was the only one voting to do anything about Anri, but I'll reiterate she's actually pretty damn strong, but she should still be a cakewalk for us if we take a second to prepare.

[ ] Take down and capture Anri ASAP.
-[ ] Tell Mami to stay out of hearing range.
-[ ] Get personal (and Gem) solid Grief defenses against stupidly strong guns.

The thing is that while Anri is very strong, her abilities either require preparation time (explosive runes, electric field), or are very straightforward (flying guns that punch really fucking hard; probably can pierce an amount of solid Grief; 'Cole' the huge flying bull).

So we just need to make sure to defend with enough Grief to tank everything and then some extra in case she's got something prepared, then inundate Anri in Grief. Or just Gem her.

Since she's rushing at us, we should rush at her. We're faster since we move at whatever speed we want.

What if, say, Hijiri teleports to Anri, grabs her and teleports away? We need to take down Anri ASAP.
 
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I'm fried, but that doesn't matter because we have a week to write votes. I'm going to frankenvote mine, Aura's, and Kai's - "The bunnycat lies" gives her a specific target to focus her anger on and a way to move forward if she does decide to actually give a shit, soften my wording.
 
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That's my problem with the "let her go" camp. Gemming her might be bad in the short run but at least has the potential for her to come out healthy. I just can't see how letting her go ends well for her. What am I missing there?
That gives me an idea for if she runs away. Offer dead drop grief seed cleansing, conditional on her not murdering people. She drops off a grief seed at an agreed location. We clean it sometime within 24 hours. She picks it up. No need to trust us to not screw her over and she doesn't starve.
 
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