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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Redshirt Army said:
Right, but the "standard" escalation is death. Mami used it as a threat, though she never had to make good on it. The kind of leeway we're offering people like Hijiri or Oriko is fairly unprecedented, and can only occur because of the stupid-huge power disparity.

That said, we can't be everywhere at once. If Hijiri fucks off, how much time and attention are we going to spend in Asunaro trying to therapy at her long-distance, instead of using that time to deal with all the other people we could be helping?
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How does that contradict anything I've said? I was pointing out that if we didn't manage to get Hijiri to the point that we were reasonably cool with each other we'd have no recourse but to kill her.

We want to avoid that and since Hijiri is Niko's wishdaughter I think the Pleiades want to avoid that too.
 
[X] null
( Hmm. I think I need to stop "contributing" until I understand the process better. What to do in the meantime? Ah, yes.
Meow Quest. )
 
Raiseth said:
Eh. My point wasn't "we should try social anyway". That first phrase was more for flavor, I guess?
My point was "this is going to be really annoying no matter how we deal with it". Because, teenagers, pmmm, blah blah blah.

Maybe it's a defeatist attitude.
Me? I prefer to think of it as stoicism.
Onmur, I can only guess at the levels of frustration you feel after almost two years of periodically dealing with this shit. That goes for every veteran of the quest, btw. I've spent something like a month in the thread and I feel like flipping a bird to Hijiri already. Maybe making a giant Grief Mecha and level a couple of city blocks...
I know, I know, you probably want to say:"Doesn't matter if it's annoying, what matters is it doesn't work." I think it theoretically can work. For someone far smoother and more socially adept than me, that's for sure, but it can. I don't see how, so I don't propagate going on with talking to every unreasonable meguca and hoping that social works this time. I mean, I'd prefer that, but I also would like to fly and obtain a functional lightsaber. I think I can cope.
So, to highlight it again: SV tried social. It didn't work. Let's try it another way. Fine.
( P.S. Oh, Firn. If you're reading this for whatever reason, it is in no way a criticism of your work. This is the stuff dreams are made of. Just so you know. )
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I'm not frustrated. Now and then I want Sabrina to gem all the troublegucas and go home to cuddle Mami, but I have this mysterious ability to step back from a story/game and not become super angry about it. :V

Case in point, we spent so much time before the latest update thinking about better ways to speechify at Hijiri, and now I'm pretty sure it was all in vain because the point of said update was that the 'talk' option wasn't going to work. It's not the right time for it.

I'm not salty about it: This is a story; interesting things must happen to make the story go on. In this case, we suffered a blow against our very way to try and confront situations. It's even made me believe we should change our overall approach, to not overextend in our efforts to Social all our problems.

Sometimes Social fails and we need to not give up on it, but wait on it. Concentrate our efforts in stopping the fight. Social later.

EDIT: For example, all this 'recap' in Always Happening's vote? Later. Save it for later. Just let Hijiri now there will be a 'later'; that we're not done, the talking needs to happen, honestly. But let her cool down first.

EDIT 2: There's reasons why therapy is supposed to happen in calm, controlled conditions! :V
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Dec 11, 2017 at 11:12 AM, finished with 130255 posts and 29 votes.
  • [X]Immediately: Encase Hijiri in a solid block of Grief using the utility fog on/surrounding her
    -[X]Once she's trapped, rearrange it internally to conduct sound so you can talk to her
    -[X]Seize Soul Gem as able, but don't rock her
    [X]Mami: Collapse the web onto Airi
    -[X]Keep her pinned; we'll take care of her in a minute
    -[X]If she breaks free, dissolve the network
    --[X]Legs are a privilege, not a right
    [X]Simultaneously, Pleiades:
    -[X]Form a perimeter: Hijiri tried making a break for it, but we have things under control; both of them should be contained in a moment
    -[X]Could someone bus in the Kures?
    [X]Hijiri: Recap, in a very short summary, what Hijiri has done today for her. She committed burglary and assault, said some chuuni shit about nobody being able to help with her unique problems that nobody can understand, and then tried to run away afterwards like she hadn't done anything.
    -[X] Does she not understand the depth of the hole she is digging for herself? Most groups would have killed her for what she did in the first place, and she is very lucky that that is neither the Pleiades nor Mitakihara. You are trying to construct a situation where you don't have to help kick her out of her hometown, which would result in people dying anywhere else because territory. But you are not about to set a precedent of people walking over you because they're troubled middleschoolers.
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri ASAP.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [x] Hijiri: Contain using grief to give yourself time to talk. It's time for a good old shouneny philosophy-while-fighting.
    [x] Hijiri: Challenge her determination. You can't give her a better life, therefore it's impossible? She needs to try harder.
    [x] Anri: Buy time. Web her with ribbons, retreat, blow a leg off, doesn't really matter.
    [x] Pleiades: Form a perimeter.
    [X] "Do you think you're the only person here who was created by a wish to fulfill a purpose? You're not! I know your circumstances suck, I really do, but that's not a reason to make this situation worse when we're here to actually help you."
    [x] Shield yourself and Mami; open the roof to let Hijiri go.
    -[x] Telepathy Hijiri: Tell her to just go. Apologize. You hoped things would've gone better; you were even excited to find someone like yourself at some point.
    [X] Fully encase her in Grief, pulling from all of the Grief that's immediately available closest to her. Yank her Soul Gem--though don't take it out of range. She'll only lose the connection if she teleports out herself.
    [X]Immediately: Encase Hijiri in a solid block of Grief using the utility fog on/surrounding her
    -[X]Once she's trapped, rearrange it internally to conduct sound so you can talk to her
    [X]Mami: Collapse the web onto Airi
    -[X]Keep her pinned; we'll take care of her in a minute
    -[X]If she breaks free, dissolve the network
    [X]Simultaneously, Pleiades:
    -[X]Form a perimeter: Hijiri tried making a break for it, but we have things under control; both of them should be contained in a moment
    -[X]Could someone bus in the Kures?
    [X]Hijiri: Recap, in a very short summary, what Hijiri has done today for her. She committed burglary and assault, said some chuuni shit about nobody being able to help with her unique problems that nobody can understand, and then tried to run away afterwards like she hadn't done anything.
    -[X] Does she not understand the depth of the hole she is digging for herself? Most groups would have killed her for what she did in the first place, and she is very lucky that that is neither the Pleiades nor Mitakihara. You are trying to construct a situation where you don't have to help kick her out of her hometown, which would result in people dying anywhere else because territory. But you are not about to set a precedent of people walking over you because they're troubled middleschoolers.
    [x] "I think I was also created by someone's wish, Hijiri. I was hoping we'd be able to connect over that. Please stay and we can work this out together"
    [X] null
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blast flame said:
How does that contradict anything I've said? I was pointing out that if we didn't manage to get Hijiri to the point that we were reasonably cool with each other we'd have no recourse but to kill her.

We want to avoid that and since Hijiri is Niko's wishdaughter I think the Pleiades want to avoid that too.
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No, no. We don't need to kill her. We just have edit her mind until she's happy and plays well with others.

Now, I know you're thinking, "Won't Niko object to us tampering with Hijiri's mind?" And the answer is, not after Umika gets done editing Niko's mind, she won't.

And now you're thinking, "How do we know Umika will be willing to go along with this plan?" And the answer is, Sayaka has a copy of Umika's power, and so it's just a matter of editing Umika's mind so she'll want to cooperate.
 
Phigment said:
No, no. We don't need to kill her. We just have edit her mind until she's happy and plays well with others.

Now, I know you're thinking, "Won't Niko object to us tampering with Hijiri's mind?" And the answer is, not after Umika gets done editing Niko's mind, she won't.

And now you're thinking, "How do we know Umika will be willing to go along with this plan?" And the answer is, Sayaka has a copy of Umika's power, and so it's just a matter of editing Umika's mind so she'll want to cooperate.
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Ah, but first we should ensure Sayaka's cooperation.

She has these pesky 'morals', after all.

So we should have her show off the memory edit power on, say, a lab rat. Then we analyze it and copy it with Grief... somehow. Then we memory edit Sayaka into memory editting Umika into memory editing the Kannas. All the Kannas. So they can all go back to being a normal family, Kanna mom, Kanna dad, Kanna Hijiri, Kanna Niko, and Kanna two younger siblings.

Perfect plan.
 
Aaaaghgh

So on one hand, I'm of half a mind to change it back, but on the other hand, she's out like a light if she gems herself-- the only problems are on the hypothetical third hand the social implications of someone finding her body before we do, and the fact that we don't know where she's trying to teleport to, which would be bad.

However, I did actually forget that Saki's lightning magic has both a flash step form and an 'actual, literal, unironic teleport' mode, and trapping her in a box isn't going to prevent that. I'm of the other half of my mind to literally just run her the fuck through to interrupt.

Vebyast said:
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Unpopular opinion time: You're being too lenient with her, and have been for a while. We've given her a mile where anyone else wouldn't have given her an inch, and she's still trying to pull this shit. We are dealing with Hijiri-H right now, and her behavior has given me the distinct impression that;
A: She isn't and hasn't been taking us seriously
B: Essentially none of our social has been getting through, because
C: Hijiri may not be super smart, but she is a very good actor
D: She's been lying about wanting a peaceful life, and made her canon wish; we can't give her what she wants because what she wants is Niko et. al. to suffer.

The one thing we haven't done is actually physically hurt her, and that's convinced her that that's because we refuse unequivocally to hurt her. I'd kind of like to disabuse her of that notion. Blank votes for now.

[]Standing: Keep Hijiri and Airi cleansed as appropriate
[]Immediately: Grief spike Hijiri out of utility fog for non-lethal impalement
-[]If teleport is successfully interrupted, restrain her in a solid grief shell
[]Simultaneously, Pleiades:
-[]Form a perimeter: Hijiri tried making a break for it, but we have things under control; both of them should be contained in a moment
-[]Could someone bus in the Kures?
[]Kirika: We need antimagic on Hijiri STAT
[]Hijiri: You seem to be confusing mercy for weakness. Tell us what you really want, then, because you've either been lying through your teeth for the past hour or you're monumentally stupid.
[]Gem Airi the moment she's in range; pursue if necessary
 
Thinking more about it, the last update, I don't think there was a talk happening. We know Hijiri hasn't been honest with us, and the exchange this update? It reads more as Hijiri waiting until Sabrina said something wrong so she could throw it back in her face and keep lashing out.

That's not talking. That's not trying to see each other's point of view, nor is it reconsidering one's own perspective. That's just more lashing out, plain and simple. Even if we had phrased things perfectly, that would've just meant Hijiri would have tried to leave without a parting shot.

Because she's scared, irrational, and wasn't listening so much as listening for any excuse to support her own irrational actions.

Why do I bring this up? Think what's gonna happen if we catch Hijiri right now.

She's not gonna calm down, she's gonna explode in anger, and I know many people glorify such things, but this is dumb, irrational, non-productive. She's gonna RARGHHJAKLFHRSJKLHFJSLHFESJKL. She's not gonna be in any state to listen to anything we say.

Even telling her to cool down might go unheard, actually, thinking about it. :|
Always Happening said:
'actual, literal, unironic teleport' mode
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Not in PMAS.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Dec 15, 2017 at 6:56 PM, finished with 466 posts and 46 votes.
  • [X] Let Hijiri go.
    -[X] ... unless Mami can stop her with ribbons, in which case, emphatically do not stop Mami from stopping Hijiri with ribbons. (If this happens, immediately break to voting. Absolutely no pauses.)
    -[X] Reply to Hijiri via telepathy: I think you'll find that the "can's" and "cant's" of the world are very different from how Kyubey would imply them to be. Lying by omission has been the majority of his job since before the dawn of history, not that he'd characterize it that way.
    [X] Take down and capture Anri ASAP.
    -[X] Use overwhelming speed, force, and defense (solid Grief). Accept Mami's support.
    -[X] Mami stays out of hearing range.
    --[X] Knock Anri out.
    [X] Telepathy the Pleiades, Sayaka, Mami: Hijiri, it would seem, has the entire powerset, including teleportation and fast transit. Why she didn't just break that out the first time you have no idea, but you completely failed to anticipate it and you had no way to stop her without excessive force, which... you don't think Niko would have wanted. Anri is caught and has the clear seed with her.
    -[X] Meet up? Anri will keep but you should probably discuss Hijiri.
    [x] So she's giving up because her perfect life can't be handed to her on a platter? It'd be ironic if it weren't so pathetic. She needs to try harder if she wants to achieve her goals.
    [x] After that, broadcast, including to Hijiri: Let her go. She's not going to try anything.
    [x] Hand tracking of Anri off to another sensor suite - grief telescope, more focused Mami ribbons, something else - and disconnect so Mami can start getting back up to speed.
    [x] Fade back to buy time.
    [x] Tell the Pleiades to form a perimeter.
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [x] Gem her
    [X] Fully encase her in Grief, pulling from all of the Grief that's immediately available closest to her. Yank her Soul Gem--though don't take it out of range. She'll only lose the connection if she teleports out herself.
    [x] "I think I was also created by someone's wish, Hijiri. I was hoping we'd be able to connect over that. Please stay and we can work this out together"
    [X] One action: Catch Hijiri with Grief.
    -[X] If that fails, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri ASAP.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashban style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [X] null
    [X] Cause Hijiri physical pain.
    -[X] If that fails, if feasible, quickly ask Mami to go after her and to call for help (Sayaka, Pleiades).
    [X] Gem Anri as soon as she's in range. Rush her if she stops moving towards us.
    -[X] Create an opening first: Examples: Ask Mami to distract her; blind her with Grief light (flashbang style); catch her with your Grief Fog; etc..
    -[X] If Anri gets away, Oriko, Kirika and Sabrina will deal with her.
    [X] No speechifying; no battlefield therapy. If you capture Hijiri, just tell her we're all gonna have to wait until she cools down, stops lashing out, and is willing to talk. For real, this time.
    [X] Any vote that doesn't involve deliberately hurting a 14 year old girl.
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Please, for the love of God, don't rock Hijiri. There's every sign her hostility is lowering even if she's not making nice. There's been social progress and people are literally going to do the thing that made her vow to kill all the Pleiades and sell them out to the Soujous. Stop.
 
[X] Track Hijiri. Chase and catch up with her personally if possible. Leave the MOF behind, fly with your own wings.
-[X] Grab a ribbon from Mami if you can. Try to keep connected.

[X] Call in Anri's location to Oriko, Kirika, and the Saints. Call in Sayaka to help you follow Hijiri.
-[X] Warn Mami to drop the network. Carry her with you if you managed to remain connected to the MOF, call in Sayaka to help you pick up Mami if you can't.

[x] Hijiri: Challenge her determination. You can't give her a better life, therefore it's impossible? She needs to try harder.
-[X] Apologize, but you do have a job to ride herd on her right now.

EDIT: Notably chasing her in person, rather than with the MOF because I don't want to risk moving Mami while she's so close to her limit.
 
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There's no ethical way to restrain her without aggravating her issues and worsening the situation. Best case scenario, Hijiri shuts down and never improves relations with the Pleiades ever again, most likely she goes on a murderous rampage, witches out, or commits suicide.

If we let her go, she has agency, a feeling of control, and a sense of safety, which was pretty much her main sticking point when we were last able to get through to her in any way. She doesn't have any of those while inside the MOF. None whatsoever. That, plus our very obviously manipulating her and saying something we really shouldn't of said is why she wants to run off, and all narrative signs indicate she's not turning hostile so much as she's giving up in the worst way possible.

[x] Do not stop Hijiri. Maintain telepathic contact.
-[x] Maybe Mami can do her invisible intangible ribbon tracking thing, but don't press it.
[x] Telepathically: "Hijiri, I misspoke. When I said I couldn't give you what you want, I meant it's something I can help with; you still need to do your part."
-[x] "I'm sorry for how this is going so far; I never wanted you to be hurt. I thought I might be in the best position to help you, because we came into being in similar ways."
--[x] "Please, hear me out. Let me help you until there's nothing more we can do. It's not over, don't give up."
---[x] "You can still live the life YOU want to life. YOUR life, not Niko's. But not if you do this. Please, Hijiri. You control your own future, right now. Your actions right now decide everything."
 
Hmm... I think it needs more work on the rest of the situation, but I've been convinced for the approach towards Hijiri herself and, in retrospect, my own approach was misguided. Throwing back in my support for:

[X]Aura Twilight.
 
The Phoenixian said:
Hmm... I think it needs more work on the rest of the situation, but I've been convinced for the approach towards Hijiri herself and, in retrospect, my own approach was misguided. Throwing back in my support for:

[X]Aura Twilight.
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If someone wants to add "[] Shoot Airi in the face" or whatever I don't care. She's not my hot button issue right now.
 
Hey, so. @The Phoenixian brought up a very salient point that we found Hijiri in the industrial district, very close to the port, and people were suspicious of the sincerity of her wish to just leave and be left alone.

She was waiting for a boat to go to California. A place that she'd be very fond of without Niko's trauma. Firn even said he had plans for us if we ever went to America.

So, my projected psychology of Hijiri is as follows: She contracted, she wants to get the fuck out of here and live her own life, but she knows Niko will stalk her no matter what she does. She goes to knock her out and get some sort of collateral or something, finds the Memory Device, takes it. She thinks it will be sufficient. She prepares to wait for a boat to go to California. She plays Airi for all of this, figuring out Niko had something Airi wanted and is trying to exploit Airi's revenge boner to be a distraction.

She saw what for all she knew was a Witch heading for her, freaked out, got caught, had a panic attack. It shakes her assumptions a bit to see Niko acting this way and everything, but she's not really assured because we really focused on letting her stay at home with her parents and gave her platitudes, so she might have taken that to mean "Oh god they're trying to play me and pressure me to stay in the fucking Dollhouse."

We...really fucked up on disavowing her of that notion, if at all true. And now she's turning into lightning as Airi approaches. She probably plans to use the confusion to speed out of here and catch her damn boat.

And if we try to restrain her, it will only reaffirm in her mind that we just want to convince her to go back into the Dollhouse.

EDIT: This also explains exactly why she wanted to keep the Memory Device after we tried to say she didn't need it and she argued otherwise. We have no platitudes for "You're not supposed to be on this boat, brat."
 
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Adding to what was stated above, it's worth noting that Hijiri said she wanted to set up "somewhere else" early on.

Combine with with the fact that Niko flat out told us that she, and by extension Hijiri, is the sort to lie with a core of truth and it also points to her boating away to freedom! America.

[Q] Go catch your boat, we'll talk later.
 
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Neither of these will work. Aura's trying the same thing we've been trying. Not only has that not been working, it's even less likely to work now that Sabrina fucked up and wrecked Hijiri's ability to trust us. Onmur's just plain going to kill her, and she'll suffer the entire time. Even odds she just plain witches out. She needs a kick in the ass, a motivational speech that gives her a reason to try, not more of the same or a jail cell.

[x] So she's giving up because her perfect life can't be handed to her on a platter? It'd be ironic if it weren't so pathetic. She needs to try harder if she wants to achieve her goals.

That or:

[] Tell her to enjoy the boat ride, and to call you if she ever gets short on grief seeds.
 
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