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Dragon Ball: After the End

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[x] Yes.

Sure, why not. Dad needs the reinforcement for the cultural/power grab, and it gives us a chance to show off in a Fighty way, drawing attention away from our pacifistic nature.

Also, as shit as we are at fighting, going in at full power is pretty much the only opportunity we'll get for coming off as properly competent rather than simply relying on brute force.

Speaking of COmpetence, we seriously need to Git Gud at fighting...I wonder if we can leverage our seer abilities with Jaffur to bring him into our mind? Let him fight through us since he's VERY good at fighting, and (frankly) we aren't.

Also, if we can set that up, it would be good for conversations and stuff since Jaffur can't do much while Jaron is awake.
 
I am having flashback from when we first met Fennella.

On another note, since this seems to be a celebrity crush, that brings another thing to mind. We might have to deal with boys at our school asking super Karen out. Or asking Maya out since we are at it. Girls might ask Jaron on dates or make eyes at him. That should prove interesting.
 
This fight is going to be a joke. Over in less than a subjective second. Scions must really have a hard time at the dating scene if fighting at full power is a normal part of the courting rituals.
 
fictionfan said:
This fight is going to be a joke. Over in less than a subjective second. Scions must really have a hard time at the dating scene if fighting at full power is a normal part of the courting rituals.
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It might be the asking more than the fighting.

Also, not all dates involve dancing. Fighting being a dancing equivalent doesn't mean there aren't other dating options.
 
Actually we should fight at full maskerade power. It allows us to show off our maskerade skill and it makes the fight take at least a few seconds.
 
fictionfan said:
This fight is going to be a joke. Over in less than a subjective second. Scions must really have a hard time at the dating scene if fighting at full power is a normal part of the courting rituals.
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I think that might be further proof Tabe just blurted the first thing that came to mind rather than this being normal for Scions. Which I can understand since he was just fighting.
 
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fictionfan said:
Actually we should fight at full maskerade power. It allows us to show off our maskerade skill and it makes the fight take at least a few seconds.
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At Masqued maximum, we still outgun Tabe's baseline power level by a factor of 20:1. Even if Jabe were as skillful a fighter as Bulma*, and I'm quite confident he isn't, that would be really, really insurmountable.

*(Saiyan Uber-Grandma)
 
I'm mostly just not feeling the whole 'romance' thing with him.
If we can do a 'yes, but as friends rather than romance' thing that might be cool.

Also I really want to see Uber-gramma train Kakara.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Okay, that is good to hear, but ultimately more off to the side of the point I am making than square-on. I am echoing the language used by others in order to more closely respond to their points, not utilizing it to exact accuracy. With tensions this high, I see little point in arguing semantics.

Furthermore: Stormwhite, I respect the point you are making. I respect it enough to ignore what I am genuinely certain is an accidental implication that I would support that kind of pressure, which I would otherwise find supremely offensive. However, this is not a debate thread on social pressure and the acceptability thereof. This is a quest, a teenage boy did something very dumb which he very much regrets, and the on-topic debate to be having is whether or not Kakara decides it's dumb enough to be worthy of a, "No," (or, indeed, whether or not she simply is uninterested in the prospect) or if his earnestness is sufficient to forgive the slip by saying, "Yes" (or indeed if Kakara the character doesn't actually care about the pressure for whatever reason). This is a debate that undoubtedly touches upon the matter of peer pressure, and I welcome discussion of that topic in the context of the central point of debate, but you have not addressed the central point of debate.

Again, I am thrilled to have you here. I simply request that while you are here, you at least participate in the quest itself.
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I think that in a vote about how to respond to social pressure, a discussion on the ethics of peer pressure and the consequences of normalising such is absolutely on topic. Indeed, I'm surprised that you're surprised about this sort of response, I'd assumed you were deliberately intending to provoke this sort of discussion.

If you wish to talk about the 'central point' of debate, that is the vote, I was refraining, but I'll make it clear. Were I sufficiently up to date on the quest to vote, I would absolutely be voting 'No' in this scenario.


Actions have consequences. By publicly rewarding the sort of peer pressure that he's wielding here, intentionally or not, it necessarily normalises that behaviour and moves it towards acceptability. This is especially applicable to a celebrity like Kakara, as celebrities have disproportionate impact upon the social contract and its make-up. As someone who has personal experience with situations like this and what can result, I cannot and will not condone a 'Yes' vote.
 
Staff Notice: Large quotes with minimal replies can be 'spaghetti posting' and disrupt threads.
@PoptartProdigy - As requested, a breakdown of some of the responses that points to the issues at play. I'm specifically not tagging anyone as I'm showing a broad pattern rather than engaging in the particulars at the moment.

Blank said:
"You cannot escape political stances in fiction.
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Blank said:
"I don't want to go down the rather disturbing line of being pressured into a date via cultural or family expectations.
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Blank said:
"This isn't just a fight, it's part of the Saiyan courting ritual. Accepting the fight isn't just saying we accept the dance, it's saying we also accept his advances and gives him further leeway to pursue us.

That is not something I care for. I may just be speaking for myself here but no, I do not accept his advances, the dance, or currently him for putting us on the spot like this."
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Blank said:
this is really creepy. It's one thing for him to ask for something romantic as a reward, it's another thing for you to make it sound like it's anything approaching ok.
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Blank said:
Like, it's literally making a romantic encounter with a girl a prize. It's using social obligation and the crowd to make a girl do something romantic she'd normally never do or want to do.
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Blank said:
I have been convinced, this is kinda creepy.
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Listed above: 5 comments from posters who read the update, read the discussion on the update, and got a creep / rape culture vibe from it.

The reason that this is important is that because, intended or not, the update did spark these feelings in these readers and is worth addressing / critiquing / discussing.

As I've mentioned, so far nothing in the story has indicated that this attitude is one that's a good thing and looked favorably upon. As a matter of fact, it's rather neutral regarding it with the only actual reaction being basically "You're reaching above your station." Now, yes, it does hint at an issue (the negative reaction was more of a political thing than "The hell is wrong with you? This is not the time, place, or way to go about anything resembling this") but there's been no elaboration of judgment there.

It's the discussion that follows that paints this particularly badly.

Blank said:
We should say yes. Jaffur needs some competition.
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Blank said:
Call me heterosexual trash, but I say take it. Would lead interesting places.
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Two above: - We should give this boyo a chance despite everything problematic he did here.

Blank said:
I don't really want to devalue Dad's word when he is trying out the royal we for first time.
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- Implied pressure that we should go along with the problematic advance.

Blank said:
Whatever happens in this fight, there is nothing binding. It's not an ambitious power play by a guy trying to tie the knot with Kakara, it's a teenage boy who got over his head. I bet we could even have a good shounen fight and refuse any idea of future dates if we wish so without drawbacks.
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- This is something that crops up in real life. "Aw. He asked in public and stuff. It's just a date, go along with it. Just say no later if you want."



Blank said:
Sayans are not humans.
What would be creepy for humans is pretty reasonable for warrior culture of warrior warriors.
Warrior.
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Adding to reiterate: Fiction is inherently political. A work written by humans consumed by humans doesn't get to shield itself from critique because it's about aliens.

Blank said:
Don't really see an issue with this. It's obvious that the kid is a little in over his head and he's even apologetic about the way he did it."
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-It's ok because he didn't know better. Go along with it, don't teach him what he did was wrong.

Blank said:
Maybe we should set up Maya with him.
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-Offer him a consolation prize in the form of a different woman.

Blank said:
Unless you're saying him asking for the fight is of the same level as asking for an arranged marriage."
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-It's just a X, not sex or marriage. What's wrong?

Blank said:
Kakara doesn't need you to white knight for her."
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-Expressing issues with the situation called out as white knighting.

Blank said:
Not as badly as the people who have never posted in this thread today, and only joined it to attack everyone inside it.

Go away Lazy, we aren't interested in your crap"
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-You don't regularly post here so your concerns about something in the chapter or discussion are invalid.

Blank said:
Its a traditional fairytale boon, given to the hero after they fulfill some epic quest, or the medieval boon granted for winning a major tournament/saving a Royals life."
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-It's ok because this incredibly sleezy and very, very much a part of rape culture thing is standard operating procedure.



The point is, a character did something that happens frequently in real life in various flavors and is very much a RC thing when it's accepted and supported. There were people that were concerned at this fact, and then there was a bunch of stuff -supporting- this kind of behavior and throwing shade on people that had concerns about it. The discussion more so than the chapter itself is strongly flavored by rape culture. Just sweeping it away is shades of "both the same" or "don't discuss politics over meals."
 
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Stormwhite said:
Actions have consequences. By publicly rewarding the sort of peer pressure that he's wielding here, intentionally or not, it necessarily normalises that behaviour and moves it towards acceptability. This is especially applicable to a celebrity like Kakara, as celebrities have disproportionate impact upon the social contract and its make-up. As someone who has personal experience with situations like this and what can result, I cannot and will not condone a 'Yes' vote.
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As I said before, your arguments are stupid, Not because their right or wrong, but because their irrelevant.
Even more so since this is a QUEST, and in least your insinuating @PoptartProdigy is going to make his Saiyans have a rape culture that you oh so believe in its extremely dumb to even mention this.
 
Stormwhite said:
I think that in a vote about how to respond to social pressure, a discussion on the ethics of peer pressure and the consequences of normalising such is absolutely on topic. Indeed, I'm surprised that you're surprised about this sort of response, I'd assumed you were deliberately intending to provoke this sort of discussion.

If you wish to talk about the 'central point' of debate, that is the vote, I was refraining, but I'll make it clear. Were I sufficiently up to date on the quest to vote, I would absolutely be voting 'No' in this scenario.


Actions have consequences. By publicly rewarding the sort of peer pressure that he's wielding here, intentionally or not, it necessarily normalises that behaviour and moves it towards acceptability. This is especially applicable to a celebrity like Kakara, as celebrities have disproportionate impact upon the social contract and its make-up. As someone who has personal experience with situations like this and what can result, I cannot and will not condone a 'Yes' vote.
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But it is not a vote about how to respond to peer pressure. Everyone IC said it is ok to say no and it even seems that that is what they expect us to do. The whole boon thing is less important in the story than what the players are making of it.

Edit: I think I should clarify before a misunderstanding occurs. The argument is about peer pressure but in the update, everyone involved are making it as clear as they can that she is not expected to accept.
 
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I'm going to say that I, as a guy, dislike this guy on principle if only for the serious failure to keeping his spaghetti in, and think this request shouldn't accepted.

Now, if he later mans up and actually dares to ask in a proper setting. Or anywhere not in front of a crowd staring at us in an important event, after stuffing his foot so far down his throat it went back down his pant leg, that'd be different.

But not now, right now he needs to get his foot off his mouth and find his courage to try again.

[X] No.
 
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I'm just going to say that unless Tabe is seriously masochistic, enough so that it would probably impair his ability to win fights (the one skill we are SURE he has)...

We have ample means at our disposal to ensure that he regrets his decision, even should we say "yes." Indeed, we could easily make him regret the decision harder with a "yes" than with a "no." A "no" means he's going to feel socially awkward. A "yes" means he's going to fight a person who could, while deliberately crippling herself by limiting herself to a quarter of her full power, move twenty times faster than him, withstand twenty times as much force as he could, and strike twenty times harder than himself.

Stormwhite said:
I think that in a vote about how to respond to social pressure, a discussion on the ethics of peer pressure and the consequences of normalising such is absolutely on topic. Indeed, I'm surprised that you're surprised about this sort of response, I'd assumed you were deliberately intending to provoke this sort of discussion.

If you wish to talk about the 'central point' of debate, that is the vote, I was refraining, but I'll make it clear. Were I sufficiently up to date on the quest to vote, I would absolutely be voting 'No' in this scenario.

Actions have consequences. By publicly rewarding the sort of peer pressure that he's wielding here, intentionally or not, it necessarily normalises that behaviour and moves it towards acceptability. This is especially applicable to a celebrity like Kakara, as celebrities have disproportionate impact upon the social contract and its make-up. As someone who has personal experience with situations like this and what can result, I cannot and will not condone a 'Yes' vote.
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My own reading of the situation and its context is that Kakara isn't under nearly as much pressure as you may believe. I perceive multiple overlapping and interlocking reasons why basically everyone present would be okay with Kakara saying "no."

From my perspective, to say that Kakara is under enough social pressure that she should be saying "no" as a gesture of resisting social pressure... Hm. To me, that is basically to say that the bare fact of asking is itself unacceptable pressure. Even when everyone believes in the right of refusal.

I'm not comfortable with going that far, among other things because it lends itself to reductio ad absurdum counterarguments. There has to be some minimum threshold below which pressure ceases to be pressure, or there can never be any meaningful, non-coerced interaction between people.

Now, I agree that if Tabe were exerting enough pressure that Kakara felt like bad things could happen to her or that people would disapprove if she said "no," then that would be a good reason to resist and say "no" in itself. But I don't think that's what's going on here, so while I acknowledge the validity of your argument, I don't think I acknowledge its applicability to this case.
 
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Ghostdevil said:
That name makes no sense, in least there some kind of Spanish specific connotation in that name?
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Apparently, it is a translation error. A better translation would be "Essential point of no control" or something like that but when the characters are combined they form the kanji for egotism? At least that is what a little research tells me. As ridiculous as it sounds, it seems ultra instinct is more acurate.
 
We should use Multiform. 1 of us and him against the other 2. That way it is actually a fight and even if he wins somehow we still don't lose.

Also allows us to evacuate his team and crowd fighting skills which this tornament really should have been doing.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'm just going to say that unless Tabe is seriously masochistic, enough so that it would probably impair his ability to win fights (the one skill we are SURE he has)...

We have ample means at our disposal to ensure that he regrets his decision, even should we say "yes." Indeed, we could easily make him regret the decision harder with a "yes" than with a "no."

My own reading of the situation and its context is that Kakara isn't under nearly as much pressure as you may believe. I perceive multiple overlapping and interlocking reasons why basically everyone present would be okay with Kakara saying "no."

From my perspective, to say that Kakara is under enough social pressure that she should be saying "no" as a gesture of resisting social pressure... Hm. To me, that is basically to say that the bare fact of asking is itself unacceptable pressure. Even when everyone believes in the right of refusal.

I'm not comfortable with going that far, among other things because it lends itself to reductio ad absurdum counterarguments. There has to be some minimum threshold below which pressure ceases to be pressure, or there can never be any meaningful, non-coerced interaction between people.

Now, I agree that if Tabe were exerting enough pressure that Kakara felt like bad things could happen to her or that people would disapprove if she said "no," then that would be a good reason to resist and say "no" in itself. But I don't think that's what's going on here, so while I acknowledge the validity of your argument, I don't think I acknowledge its applicability to this case.
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It's not the asking that's pressure, it's the how he asked. Of course, it was unintentional, and he was felt just as bad as anyone else. That's great. We still shouldn't say yes.

If he dares ask later, then he can get consideration. But right now I think that even the guy himself would be better off with the chance to back the hell off this mine field and reconsider his approach.

Like, he will probably feel better about this if he can do this later, in a situation where he was able to walk up to us and ask instead of fumbling.
 
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Katsuragi said:
@PoptartProdigy - As requested, a breakdown of some of the responses that points to the issues at play. I'm specifically not tagging anyone as I'm showing a broad pattern rather than engaging in the particulars at the moment.



------------------------------------------------------------------











Listed above: 5 comments from posters who read the update, read the discussion on the update, and got a creep / rape culture vibe from it.

The reason that this is important is that because, intended or not, the update did spark these feelings in these readers and is worth addressing / critiquing / discussing.

As I've mentioned, so far nothing in the story has indicated that this attitude is one that's a good thing and looked favorably upon. As a matter of fact, it's rather neutral regarding it with the only actual reaction being basically "You're reaching above your station." Now, yes, it does hint at an issue (the negative reaction was more of a political thing than "The hell is wrong with you? This is not the time, place, or way to go about anything resembling this") but there's been no elaboration of judgment there.

It's the discussion that follows that paints this particularly badly.





Two above: - We should give this boyo a chance despite everything problematic he did here.



- Implied pressure that we should go along with the problematic advance.



- This is something that crops up in real life. "Aw. He asked in public and stuff. It's just a date, go along with it. Just say no later if you want."





Adding to reiterate: Fiction is inherently political. A work written by humans consumed by humans doesn't get to shield itself from critique because it's about aliens.



-It's ok because he didn't know better. Go along with it, don't teach him what he did was wrong.



-Offer him a consolation prize in the form of a different woman.



-It's just a X, not sex or marriage. What's wrong?



-Expressing issues with the situation called out as white knighting.



-You don't regularly post here so your concerns about something in the chapter or discussion are invalid.



-It's ok because this incredibly sleezy and very, very much a part of rape culture thing is standard operating procedure.



The point is, a character did something that happens frequently in real life in various flavors and is very much a RC thing when it's accepted and supported. There were people that were concerned at this fact, and then there was a bunch of stuff -supporting- this kind of behavior and throwing shade on people that had concerns about it. The discussion more so than the chapter itself is strongly flavored by rape culture. Just sweeping it away is shades of "both the same" or "don't discuss politics over meals."
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The spaghetti posting is real.

Granted, some of those aren't, but several are. As one of the people you quoted, I'm amused that you feel the need to go that low.

Let's see if memes help get this point across:

Edit: Have a tally
Adhoc vote count started by Blonddude42 on Nov 28, 2017 at 8:59 PM, finished with 205 posts and 39 votes.
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065tdsa said:
It's not the asking that's pressure, it's the how he asked. Of course, it was unintentional, and he was felt just as bad as anyone else. That's great. We still shouldn't say yes.
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The thing is... I don't think the way he asked exerted meaningful pressure. You can't use social pressure to compel someone if they would not suffer any social penalties for saying "no."

I totally agree that boys who try to use social pressure to leverage girls into accepting dates should get smacked down.

I don't agree that this is an instance of such in any but the most lawyerly sense of the term.
 
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