- Location
- Auf dem Tisch
I really sincerely want to know why everyone isn't pushing to find out Hijiri's wish.
Especially if you're going to base even the slightest bit of your plan on what her magic is or what would lead her to wish rejection.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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Especially if you're going to base even the slightest bit of your plan on what her magic is or what would lead her to wish rejection.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
EDIT: This might or might not be obvious, but when I propose proposing to de-gem Yuuri, that might become a problem if the Pleiades are not Lichbombed.
If we could get Hijiri to actually open up first, that'd be great.
Judging from her powers, though, she might be the same as 'canon' Hijiri, just... tweaked a bit.
Well, Wishes are kind of... private.
If we could get Hijiri to actually open up first, that'd be great.
Judging from her powers, though, she might be the same as 'canon' Hijiri, just... tweaked a bit.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
X'ing for now, since at least two people agree. 
Hopefully voting discussion will happen while I'm asleep.
[X] Thank Kazumi, but refuse. If anything goes wrong, we want to be here.
[X] Hijiri, privately (after she's done with Niko):
-[X] Be supportive, tactful and non accusatory.
-[X] Airi is in heavy denial, lashing out, and needs help. She's admitted to making a sadistic Wish, and seems to have looked up to Hijiri.
-[X] If Hijiri's holding anything back, it'll help if she says it herself, soon.
[X] Everyone: Talk conditions for Hijiri's future release (be tactful about the Kannas; omit this line if necessary).
[X] Everyone: Finding Airi quicker.
-[X] Ribbon range extension with Sensing Booster (which others should copy)?
-[X] Sayaka, more clones? Kazumi, Chibis?
-[X] Ask for ideas. Be encouraging.
-[X] Mention the Grief Magic Booster. Remind everyone they can spam magic.
-[X] Perhaps Hijiri could help?
[X] Mami, Kazumi:
-[X] Share the non-private details about your talks with Hijiri and Airi.
Hopefully voting discussion will happen while I'm asleep.
[X] Thank Kazumi, but refuse. If anything goes wrong, we want to be here.
[X] Hijiri, privately (after she's done with Niko):
-[X] Be supportive, tactful and non accusatory.
-[X] Airi is in heavy denial, lashing out, and needs help. She's admitted to making a sadistic Wish, and seems to have looked up to Hijiri.
-[X] If Hijiri's holding anything back, it'll help if she says it herself, soon.
[X] Everyone: Talk conditions for Hijiri's future release (be tactful about the Kannas; omit this line if necessary).
[X] Everyone: Finding Airi quicker.
-[X] Ribbon range extension with Sensing Booster (which others should copy)?
-[X] Sayaka, more clones? Kazumi, Chibis?
-[X] Ask for ideas. Be encouraging.
-[X] Mention the Grief Magic Booster. Remind everyone they can spam magic.
-[X] Perhaps Hijiri could help?
[X] Mami, Kazumi:
-[X] Share the non-private details about your talks with Hijiri and Airi.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Well, it has to be weighted against Yuuri being a witchbomb threat.
We could also not say anything, then when the time comes, gem Yuuri and demand to take her.
I really really don't want her to have chances.
I admit, though, Yuuri doesn't canonically try to witchbomb anyone, so much as she witches out mid-fight.
(And... I'd like to see the Pleiades (mostly Kazumi's) reaction to 'dangerous information'. It might be a tell as to whether they're Witchbombed).
Script Mak3r
(Verified Sun God) (Verified Feathers)
- Location
- Hell of Blazing Fires
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Maybe tell the Pleiades that we're strongly considering immediate neutralization? We don't necessarily have to commit until Anri is in range.
- Location
- Auf dem Tisch
Okay. So what?
Respecting the privacy of others is fine and all, but this isn't exactly the time to be worrying about stepping on toes that haven't even had time to be anointed with the cultural koolaid.
We haven't even asked her.
We recognise that things are a bit different already but, to my recollection, not a single contender yet has even mentioned as much as sending her a PM that says "Hey, I might be able to help you better if I know precisely what you wished for." I don't understand why that's not worrying people more.
From what I've seen, Firn doesn't make that kind of subtle change for no reason; my gut feeling is that difference is important.
(And if she has been a meguca for long enough to have absorbed the norms, that's another inconsistency in her story to address...)
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
*winces* please tell me that's a "take it easy" and not a "you've done enough damage. Stop. Helping."
Honestly, half the reason I asked the time earlier, is that I was thinking of calling Homura and Nadia at about 8.
(Nadia for obvious reasons, Homura to ensure that nothing's exploded.)
...Hunh, on that note, I wonder if it's possible to ask Nadia if there are help groups for artificially created humans.
Hmm... something along the lines of
[] Ask Kazumi the whereabouts of Arzt Kochen's seed.
Might help if we want to find out about that.
Are the Saints even lichbombed at this point?
As far as verifying how long Hijiri has been a magical girl goes, as well as who inducted who, a lot of people are not gonna like it, but it occurs to me that there could be a way to crosscheck those things, via asking Kyuubey when he contracted each girl.
Might be a more agreeable way, but that's the one that's obvious to me.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
If we can trust her to be quite not sane, and take these words at face value, then the comment about Hijiri 'teaching' her could be interpreted in a few ways...
For example, Hijiri might have taken Airi under her wing, become her mentor figure, and Hijiri being caught now feels to Airi as a betrayal. In this hypothetical case, we destroyed the Mentor Hijiri figure Airi would have in her mind, and that's why she's overreacting so much.
She seemed to have stopped yelling at Hijiri, though. Probably Hijiri convinced her that this is all part of the plan towards our downfall.
Thinking of modifying:
From:
To:
My feelings on the matter have to do with what I expect Hijiri's response to be, and how prodding into her Wish at this point might be counter productive.
Let's say, if I was in Hijiri's position and had made a canon-ish Wish? I wouldn't tell us. I would lie, simply as that. And become more guarded. After all, Hijiri's canonical Wish is straight up evil.
However, if we manage to get some cooperation going, and Hijiri shows at least some signs that she believes we've got her best interests in mind, then I would like to ask her more, since then we would have reasons to believe Hijiri would be truthful with us, even with things she wouldn't right now.
This is why I want to bring up talk about Hijiri's future release, by the way (even if I'm not sure it might be a good moment to do it right now). I want to show we're trying to help her out, before asking anything else of her.
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Demosthenes
PhotoFop
- Location
- 'Murica
You raise some good points; we probably don't want to go all "big sister is watching" on them. I know we joke about Sayaka being the meguca police, but she probably shouldn't be the meguca secret police.
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
Ah, but then logically, that is precisely why Sayaka is the best choice!
Kkutlord
Prince of Breath
- Location
- Indianapolis, Indiana
Hijiri's wish from the manga is wanting to stealthily connect to others and burn the image of Niko's eventual death into her eyes. Honestly, saying that's straight up evil is an exaggeration as she didn't wish to kill Niko or for her to die (she could of easily wished Niko away frankly). So should she perform a heel face turn, she has little worry of wish rejection if she reinterprets the intention positively (heck, depending on how it works Hijiri could end up saving Niko by telling others).
On a similar note, making a lie like "She's totes wished evilly and said you're her sempai" seems too strong that Hijiri is more likely to call Sabrina out. While I'm not opposed to Sabrina making a lie to prod for information, it should be more subtle like "She told me she wished to get revenge on the Pleiades" (which was definitely her intention given the weapon summoning and explosion production) or "She claims you're the one who taught her about megucadom" (which is an easy assumption to make out of "She taught me" which can easily mean anything and plenty of good or neutral individuals have taught bad people).
Overall though, I think it is important Sabrina handles Anri and Hijiri as positively as she can. Making negative assumptions and planning in advance to de-gem someone are not the kinds of action Sabrina wants to be her (perceived) norm. Quite frankly, Sabrina is one of the most dangerous Magical Girls if not the most. Thus, it is far too easy for Sabrina to become known as the Meguca bogeyman rather than their savior if she's careless with her actions.
On a similar note, making a lie like "She's totes wished evilly and said you're her sempai" seems too strong that Hijiri is more likely to call Sabrina out. While I'm not opposed to Sabrina making a lie to prod for information, it should be more subtle like "She told me she wished to get revenge on the Pleiades" (which was definitely her intention given the weapon summoning and explosion production) or "She claims you're the one who taught her about megucadom" (which is an easy assumption to make out of "She taught me" which can easily mean anything and plenty of good or neutral individuals have taught bad people).
Overall though, I think it is important Sabrina handles Anri and Hijiri as positively as she can. Making negative assumptions and planning in advance to de-gem someone are not the kinds of action Sabrina wants to be her (perceived) norm. Quite frankly, Sabrina is one of the most dangerous Magical Girls if not the most. Thus, it is far too easy for Sabrina to become known as the Meguca bogeyman rather than their savior if she's careless with her actions.
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
[X] Kkutlord
I agree.
I agree.
Kkutlord
Prince of Breath
- Location
- Indianapolis, Indiana
Regarding voting actions, I mostly agree with what Onmur has but I also have some differences. So...
[X] Thank Kazumi, but refuse. If anything goes wrong we want to be here, for our new friends and to help Hijiri & Anri/"Yuuri" both with their problems.
-[X] Kazumi, privately: Ask about the whereabouts of Azrt Kochen's Grief Seed, describe if necessary.
-[X] If they still have the Grief Seed, explain you suspect giving Anri that Seed might help reasoning with her due to being connected to Yuuri.
[X] Hijiri, privately:
-[X] Be supportive, tactful, and non accusatory when talking to her.
-[X] Monitor Hijiri's behavior with grief fog, to see if any suspicious behavior occurs.
-[X] If there's anything left she hasn't told us, telling us herself will likely gain her positive favor.
-[X] Airi is lashing out over Yuuri's death and is in heavy denial regarding the Witch's involvement. She needs help and if this continues she's going to either get someone killed, or completely lose herself to her own grief.
-[X] Airi said you taught her, does that mean you helped her understand her powers or something else entirely?
[X] Everyone: Talk conditions for Hijiri's future release (Be tactful about the Kannas)
[X] Everyone: Finding Airi quicker.
-[X] Ribbon range extension with Sensing Booster (which others should copy)?
-[X] Sayaka, more clones? Kazumi, Chibis or copied Cloning?
-[X] Ask for ideas, be encouraging.
-[X] Mention the Grief Magic Booster. Remind everyone they don't need to worry as much about gem corruption with you and the Clear Seed.
-[X] Offer to create another Clear Seed if they think it necessary.
-[X] Perhaps Hijiri could help? No easier way for her to prove herself.
[X] Mami, Kazumi:
-[X] Share the non-private details of your talks with Hijiri and Airi.
-[X] Explain that getting Airi to understand the Pleiades aren't the bad guys will require some serious effort, but that you intend to try anyways.
I also think just straight up asking Kyubey "Did you let Airi believe the Pleiades killed Yuuri in cold blood and not out of necessity" would easily solve the "Is Anri Witchbombed" question but obviously Sabrina should keep Kyubey away from everyone if she does.
[X] Thank Kazumi, but refuse. If anything goes wrong we want to be here, for our new friends and to help Hijiri & Anri/"Yuuri" both with their problems.
-[X] Kazumi, privately: Ask about the whereabouts of Azrt Kochen's Grief Seed, describe if necessary.
-[X] If they still have the Grief Seed, explain you suspect giving Anri that Seed might help reasoning with her due to being connected to Yuuri.
[X] Hijiri, privately:
-[X] Be supportive, tactful, and non accusatory when talking to her.
-[X] Monitor Hijiri's behavior with grief fog, to see if any suspicious behavior occurs.
-[X] If there's anything left she hasn't told us, telling us herself will likely gain her positive favor.
-[X] Airi is lashing out over Yuuri's death and is in heavy denial regarding the Witch's involvement. She needs help and if this continues she's going to either get someone killed, or completely lose herself to her own grief.
-[X] Airi said you taught her, does that mean you helped her understand her powers or something else entirely?
[X] Everyone: Talk conditions for Hijiri's future release (Be tactful about the Kannas)
[X] Everyone: Finding Airi quicker.
-[X] Ribbon range extension with Sensing Booster (which others should copy)?
-[X] Sayaka, more clones? Kazumi, Chibis or copied Cloning?
-[X] Ask for ideas, be encouraging.
-[X] Mention the Grief Magic Booster. Remind everyone they don't need to worry as much about gem corruption with you and the Clear Seed.
-[X] Offer to create another Clear Seed if they think it necessary.
-[X] Perhaps Hijiri could help? No easier way for her to prove herself.
[X] Mami, Kazumi:
-[X] Share the non-private details of your talks with Hijiri and Airi.
-[X] Explain that getting Airi to understand the Pleiades aren't the bad guys will require some serious effort, but that you intend to try anyways.
I also think just straight up asking Kyubey "Did you let Airi believe the Pleiades killed Yuuri in cold blood and not out of necessity" would easily solve the "Is Anri Witchbombed" question but obviously Sabrina should keep Kyubey away from everyone if she does.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I've had while votecrafting, forgot to include in that version of the vote earlier.
This old warning from Oriko seems relevant:
Is the theory that Oriko was just wrong here?
Is the theory that Oriko was just wrong here?
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
We are trying to turn Kanna, and its in some of our intetests to not call her on that until later.
Some even appear to take it so far as to place the whole blame on Airi.
Some even appear to take it so far as to place the whole blame on Airi.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
No, she's likely right. We just want to give Hijiri a chance to prove her wrong, or stop being evil, or something...
Maybe describe it directly, we're the only one who gets Witch names, I believe.
After we ask this, the Pleiades might think that was the Witch who 'got' Yuuri, since we lead them to believe Yuuri got killed by a Witch.
Also, I think it's been months since then, at least it's been months since Kazumi met Yuuri, but it's worth a try.
Adding to my version of the vote.
[X] Thank Kazumi, but refuse. If anything goes wrong, we want to be here.
[X] Kazumi, privately: Describe Arzt Kochen, explain its Seed might help deal with Airi.
[X] Hijiri, privately (after she's done with Niko):
-[X] Be supportive, tactful and non accusatory.
-[X] Talk about Airi's issues, and about wanting to help her. Mention her comments.
-[X] Ask Hijiri to volunteer any information she can. Being honest will help her.
[X] Everyone: Talk conditions for Hijiri's future release (be tactful about the Kannas; omit this line if necessary).
[X] Everyone: Finding Airi quicker.
-[X] Ribbon range extension with Sensing Booster (which others should copy)?
-[X] Sayaka, more clones? Kazumi, Chibis/clones?
-[X] Ask for ideas. Be encouraging.
-[X] Mention the Grief Magic Booster. Remind everyone they can spam magic.
-[X] Perhaps Hijiri could help?
[X] Mami, Kazumi:
-[X] Share the non-private details about your talks with Hijiri and Airi.
This vote has grown long, though. Anything that could be pruned down?
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Couldn't leave well enough alone...
Are we doing a Witchbombing now?
Because, there really is no plausible explanation why we need a specific Witch Seed to calm down a crazy meguca.
If there is, I'd like to hear it. No, I'm not being sarcastic, if we can pull it off, I'm all in.
Kkutlord
Prince of Breath
- Location
- Indianapolis, Indiana
@Onmur: Ah, I suppose I should of worded that better. Basically I was thinking Sabrina would automatically omit the name, as I only for simplicity's sake.
@Raiseth: Asking Kazumi about Yuuri's Grief Seed isn't an automatic Witchbomb. Basically, the idea is "Arzt Kochen killed Yuuri, so letting Yuuri/Anri have the Seed should help calm her". Though it also doubles as hinting, so there's that.
@Raiseth: Asking Kazumi about Yuuri's Grief Seed isn't an automatic Witchbomb. Basically, the idea is "Arzt Kochen killed Yuuri, so letting Yuuri/Anri have the Seed should help calm her". Though it also doubles as hinting, so there's that.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
That sounds reasonable. "Vader killed your father" kind of reasonable, but still.
Nah, my concern was more like:
"Yeah, I'll try to look, but why the heck do we need that Seed, exactly?"
That would cover our bases. And blow spectacularly when Airi will start ranting about her Yuuri while holding the Seed...
Edit: okay, I'll clarify as much as I can, sorry for not being very good at getting my point across, it's a problem:
Basically, I'm afraid.
Afraid that the moment we start talking about Witch Seeds in front of someone in the know, be it QB, Yuuri-wannabe or, idk, Homura, we are almost inevitably entering a minefield of possibly bad situations. Unless the other party is as interested in keeping things hush-hush as we are, Bad Things Are Going To Happen.
On the other hand, we have to tell about Witches and Megucas sometime in the future. If only because, as horrifiying as it is, our best chance to find out how to reverse Witching lies with girls in Asunaro. Who are, thanks to us, ( still no sarcasm here ) are not Witchbombed by Kazumi.
So, I guess, what I'm really asking, is this: do we have a plan?
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
[x] Kkutlord
Kkutlord
Prince of Breath
- Location
- Indianapolis, Indiana
@Raiseth: Since I wasn't initially planning on making a vote, I haven't really refined the idea regarding Yuuri's Seed. However, my basic plan is confirming if Anri and optionally Kazumi know about the Witchbomb. If so, then it would actually be easier to defuse Anri than if she wasn't aware Meguca are Witches. Thus, confirming the whereabouts of Yuuri's Grief Seed is all about making a promise that Sabrina and the Pleiades will prioritize Yuuri for dewitching/sanity restoration/Sorceress creation.
From there I would actually propose trying to make a stable clone of a normal Magical Girl to basically nail down the concept (thus the Kazumi sisters could still exist). No point trying to restore Yuuri only for Anri to watch a dozen insane or unstable attempts before finally making a perfect(ish) thirteenth one. That actually reminds me... Perhaps it is fully within Sabrina's abilities to partially restore Witches? Kazumi XIII restored Anri to partial humanoid form (sanity... Eh) and Witches are basically madness personified. Trying to pull a Rochelle actually seems like a decent idea, as it would be kind of awkward if Sabrina had the Pleiades put months into this when Sabrina only needed a day.
On a different note, I actually like the idea of checking with Oriko to confirm if her vision of Hijiri was one she feels very certain about. While I very much want Sabrina to be friendly and well meaning, knowing whether or not Oriko thinks Hijiri is going to be a problem is worth checking. Still, I suggest waiting until the next update so that way Sabrina has more information to tell Oriko.
@kinigget: Basically Anri is lashing out because she thinks the Pleiades killed Yuuri. In the manga Anri was even there in Yuuri's barrier and saw the Pleiades kill the Witch, thanking them for saving her. The moment she learns the Witch was Yuuri causes her freakout. So offering her Yuuri's Grief Seed aka her very soul is certain to cause Anri to calm down at least a little. Basically, the idea is promising to fix Yuuri as a way of defusing Anri. Thus, such a hand of grace is also likely to get Hijiri to realize Sabrina really will do anything to help a Magical Girl.
From there I would actually propose trying to make a stable clone of a normal Magical Girl to basically nail down the concept (thus the Kazumi sisters could still exist). No point trying to restore Yuuri only for Anri to watch a dozen insane or unstable attempts before finally making a perfect(ish) thirteenth one. That actually reminds me... Perhaps it is fully within Sabrina's abilities to partially restore Witches? Kazumi XIII restored Anri to partial humanoid form (sanity... Eh) and Witches are basically madness personified. Trying to pull a Rochelle actually seems like a decent idea, as it would be kind of awkward if Sabrina had the Pleiades put months into this when Sabrina only needed a day.
On a different note, I actually like the idea of checking with Oriko to confirm if her vision of Hijiri was one she feels very certain about. While I very much want Sabrina to be friendly and well meaning, knowing whether or not Oriko thinks Hijiri is going to be a problem is worth checking. Still, I suggest waiting until the next update so that way Sabrina has more information to tell Oriko.
@kinigget: Basically Anri is lashing out because she thinks the Pleiades killed Yuuri. In the manga Anri was even there in Yuuri's barrier and saw the Pleiades kill the Witch, thanking them for saving her. The moment she learns the Witch was Yuuri causes her freakout. So offering her Yuuri's Grief Seed aka her very soul is certain to cause Anri to calm down at least a little. Basically, the idea is promising to fix Yuuri as a way of defusing Anri. Thus, such a hand of grace is also likely to get Hijiri to realize Sabrina really will do anything to help a Magical Girl.