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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Urgh.

Tentatively,
[X]Onmur
We really do want Mami and Kazumi helping us out with this, because they're ultimately much better at the Social than we are.

Tangentially, I want to send Sayaka off to run air support for the Kures; she isn't doing anything productive here, there's still a villain to hunt, and Oriko's team is the most vulnerable-- Oriko is still specifically worried about getting ganked here. Ideally, letting Sayaka help them indirectly while observing them from a distance will help cool her tensions towards them. Y'know, like cats or something. :V
 
Vebyast said:
"I understand what she's saying perfectly well, she thinks X.". Back to screaming, zero progress made, opportunity lost. That's what the last three rounds have already been! Skip it and go straight to the explanations.
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We've already reached a point of obvious impasse. I'm not interested in further discussion of this at the moment, sorry.
 
[Q] 'Hey Nadia, do you know a couple of lawyergucas, a judgeguca, a-'

'Can I be the reporter?'

'Oh my god yes you're the best.'

'...'

'After Mami, of course.'

'Of course.'
 
Oh my lulz what is this?

Some dastardly 'Onmur' dude is stealing my votes! :V

(Bug?)
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Nov 6, 2017 at 9:39 PM, finished with 128437 posts and 36 votes.
  • [x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Kazumi, keep her from coming in angry and worsening the situation. Enlist Mami's assistance if necessary.
    [x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka, tell her to start keeping an eye on the Pleiades, too - they're losing control.
    [x] Simultaneously: Use utility fog to slip out of Saki's grasp and walk away. Take care not to let the situation escalate physically. Move to present body language separating the parties and protecting Hijiri.
    [x] Simultaneously: Command Niko out of the memory field so you can cleanse her. Keep her from moving back in. Enlist Mami's voice if necessary.
    [x] Tone: Coldly furious disapproval. This is not okay.
    [x] Excoriate Niko for attacking Hijiri.
    -[x] Look at how terrified Hijiri is. Does Niko want to be the kind of person that brings all her friends to beat up a helpless victim?
    -[x] The biggest thing denying Hijiri a peaceful life right now is Niko assaulting her.
    [x] Tell Niko and Hijiri that you promise you will find a way for everyone to live peacefully. That is what your wish was for. That is what everything you do is for. That is why you exist.
    [x] But - Hijiri can't live peacefully if she feels like Niko is trying to dictate her life for her. Emphasize to Niko that Hijiri is her own person.
    [x] Tell Hijiri that, as shit as Niko may be at explaining it, she did wish for Hijiri to be able to be happy. Seeing Hijiri apparently reject that hurt her badly and she's not handling it very well.
    [x] Reiterate your promise of a peaceful life - if all else fails, Hijiri wouldn't be the first refugee seeking peace in Mitakihara. Better solutions exist, but even in the worst case you can and will deliver.
    [x] If you get a chance, get rid of the memory device. Hijiri needs a different kind of protection right now.
    [X] Onmur
    [X] Keep your anger as contained as you can manage.
    [X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
    [X] Intervene. Get Sayaka's help if necessary.
    [X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
    [X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
    - [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
    - [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She's our detainee, and she has rights. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister, for better or for worse.
    - [X] Offer the two of them a choice, you can have someone mediate this discussion civilly, or skip straight to the questioning.
    [X] The Memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. We'd like it if Hijiri could just drop the thing, since it's useless to her now anyway.
    [X] Cleanse.
    [X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. We aren't her friend, but we'll be her defense lawyer if need be.
    [x] Null
    [X] Calm down Sabrina. Alright, let's do this.
    [X] "It's not Niko I'm worried about right now. Hijiri's afraid she's being treated as an extension of Niko, as an object, and Niko is playing into that fear."
    [X] Hypervene Intervene. Get Sayaka's help if necessary.
    [X] Mami's new role is to try to deescalate Kazusa when she lands. She knows Kazusa better than any of us.
    [X] Separate the two of them. Deescalate.
    - [X] If Niko objects, give her your reasons for intervening. Both personally, as pertains to what exactly she's doing and practically.
    - [X] Try to calm Hijiri down. She deserves to be treated humanely. She's not a thing; she's Niko's sister.
    - [X] The memory field has to go. We can't cleanse either of them while they're in there, and the last thing we need is for the two of them to get hyped up on grief and start flaying each other alive. It's not doing Hijiri any good right now anyway. If she gives it up as a show of good faith, then we can help her find a solution to this mess.
    [X] Cleanse.
    [X] Mediate. Rephrase their sentences to each other so nothing is lost in shouted translation.
    - [X] No hitting. Hitting is bad, so make sure they don't hit each other.
    - [X] Let them explain themselves. Gotta understand each other to agree or compromise, y'know?
    [X] If Kazumi or Saki tries to interfere, point out that Niko was abusing Hijiri when Hijiri had no chance to fight back. That's mean. Hijiri is terrified. And look, we look like we're ganging up on her.
    [x] Don't even dignify Saki with a response. If she doesn't see how wrong she is, it's not worth it.
    [x] Brainmail Kazumi: "Hopefully be with you in a few but things are way toxic down here and we've let it go too far already."
    [x] Enlist Mami and Sayaka's help to separate them and deescalate. Again. Jerry Springer is not a model to emulate!
    -[x] Fuck it, Sayaka, antimagic. This paranoia over memory bullshit and what precisely the device does has gone far too long. It can be rebuilt.
    -[x] Quiet down, don't make me get the spray bottle.
    -[x] Saki will probably interfere more insistently. "I'm sure you mean well, Saki, but I will NOT allow this to become a lynching."
    [X] Disable the Memory Field safely.
    -[X] Ask Sayaka if she can focus the antimagic to a beam.
    [X] Send in the chibis - All the chibis! Even Chibis of Meguca we have yet to meet.
    -[X] Have them hug every Kanna they see.
    [x] Stay Calm. Be Empathetic.
    [x] Let Saki know that Niko isn't the only one that you're worried about. You're concerned by both Niko's behaviour and how the conversation is going.
    [x] Handle everyone's reactions. (Saki, Sayaka, Mami, etc.) In particular, consult with Mami on her thoughts and accept her advice, suggestions, and help.
    [x] Interject into the conversation, breaking up the argument. Address the issues each of them has - Hijiri is her own person with her own agency despite her origins, but Niko really did wish the best for her. Try to get things going on a more even keel, while being empathetic to both of them. Step back if your presence isn't needed any more.
    [X] Use multitasking as much as possible.
    [X] Telepathy Kazumi, Saki, Mami, Sayaka.
    -[X] Convey that no, Niko is not handling herself, how horrifying this situation is, and ask for help stopping it.
    -[X] If the Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them you won't be complicit to abuse.
    [X] Make yourself heard. Niko needs to back off, get Gem cleansing, and calm the hell down.
    -[X] If necessary, make a Grief wall between the Kannas, or ask Mami to separate them.
    -[X] To anyone who disagrees: Pointedly explain everything wrong with this picture.
    --[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.
    [X] Ask Niko to apologize for hitting Hijiri after she was already down.*
    [X] After seeing this, we can't in good conscience let them deal with this alone.
    -[X] We, or anyone neutral to both parties, will mediate this discussion.
    [X] Both of them have points, and neither of them understand each other.
    -[X] We want to help everyone.
    -[X] To Hijiri: The Memory Device is preventing us from helping her more than it protects her from anyone. Ask her to drop it, and promise she'll be treated fairly.
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Also, something that folks have probably realized, but should probably be pointed out explicitly.

So far, there's every indication that Niko is emotionally unstable to a similar manner and degree that Hijiri is. That should be taken into account.
 
Onmur said:
Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them you won't be complicit to abuse.
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Onmur said:
-[X] To anyone who disagrees: Pointedly explain everything wrong with this picture.
--[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.
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These two need explicit stopping conditions to keep brinapilot from wasting time before stepping in.
Onmur said:
[X] Ask Niko to apologize for hitting Hijiri after she was already down.*
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I thought we all agreed that stopping to demand an apology was a terrible idea?
 
[X] Use multitasking as much as possible.

[X] Telepathy Kazumi, Saki, Mami, Sayaka.
-[X] Convey that no, Niko is not handling herself, how horrifying this situation is, and ask for help stopping it.
-[X] If the Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them you won't be complicit to abuse.
-[X] With everyone here though this is more of a social issue and we don't need raw manpower. Sayaka's mobile and dangerous - ask her to link up with Oriko and Kirika and make sure Airi doesn't hit them while they're helpless.

[X] Make yourself heard. Niko needs to back off, get Gem cleansing, and calm the hell down.
-[X] If necessary, make a Grief wall between the Kannas, or ask Mami to separate them.
-[X] To anyone who disagrees: succinctly explain everything wrong with this picture.
--[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.

[X] Ask Niko not to hit Hijiri again. She's already basically captive - slapping her like that's just wrong.
[X] After seeing this, we can't in good conscience let them deal with this alone.
-[X] We, or anyone neutral to both parties, will mediate this discussion.

[X] Both of them have points, and neither of them understand each other.
-[X] We want to help everyone.
-[X] To Hijiri: The Memory Device is preventing us from helping her more than it protects her from anyone. Ask her to drop it, and promise she'll be treated fairly.

Added a line to send Sayaka off to help Oriko. Because my author-sense is tingling that Airi is headed to her position soon, probably right when we start to fix things but before we can take off and leave.

Remember, Heroes act.
 
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Vebyast said:
These two need explicit stopping conditions to keep brinapilot from wasting time before stepping in.
I thought we all agreed that stopping to demand an apology was a terrible idea?
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I'm not sure, I thought that, while demanding an apology might not be viable, asking might have a chance of working, but considering it further, maybe not... since Niko would have to accept she did a wrong first.

Editing in a moment?
 
The Phoenixian said:
Also, something that folks have probably realized, but should probably be pointed out explicitly.

So far, there's every indication that Niko is emotionally unstable to a similar manner and degree that Hijiri is. That should be taken into account.
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Click to shrink...

I have been saying this over and over and over and it is why I have been repeatedly doing whatever I can to not have us end up with the vote that was being bandwagoned this afternoon.
 
Got rid of ask for apology line, because OK, it can hurt.

Not sure about time wasting?

[X] Use multitasking as much as possible.
[X] Telepathy Kazumi, Saki, Mami, Sayaka.
-[X] Convey that no, Niko is not handling herself, how horrifying this situation is, and ask for help stopping it.
-[X] If the Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them you won't be complicit to abuse.

[X] Make yourself heard. Niko needs to back off, get Gem cleansing, and calm the hell down.
-[X] If necessary, make a Grief wall between the Kannas, or ask Mami to separate them.
-[X] If anyone disagrees: Pointedly explain everything wrong with this picture. Don't go overboard.
--[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.

[X] After seeing this, we can't in good conscience let them deal with this alone.
-[X] We, or anyone neutral to both parties, will mediate this discussion.

[X] Both of them have points, and neither of them understand each other.
-[X] We want to help everyone.
-[X] To Hijiri: The Memory Device is preventing us from helping her more than it protects her from anyone. Ask her to drop it, and promise she'll be treated fairly.
 
Kaizuki said:
I have been saying this over and over and over and it is why I have been repeatedly doing whatever I can to not have us end up with the vote that was being bandwagoned this afternoon.
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There is a point beyond which a classic magical girl's proper response changes from "Power of friendship healing affirmation" to "Forcefully applied therapy". Niko wouldn't be the first magical girl that crossed that line near Sabrina and earned themselves a scathing denunciation tacked on to the front of the helpful friendly advice, nor is she anywhere near the most unstable.

Now, you could make an argument that Niko is currently at the stage where we don't need to do that and we instead need to guide her away from the path she's taking. The issue is... I don't think that that's the case. I think that she's gotten herself so deep that she's not coming up so easily. Not without someone to stop her hard and start the conversation over with better information and someone in the middle to keep things polite. And guess what we're doing?
 
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The Phoenixian said:
Also, something that folks have probably realized, but should probably be pointed out explicitly.

So far, there's every indication that Niko is emotionally unstable to a similar manner and degree that Hijiri is. That should be taken into account.
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Niko's been guiltripping herself since she was in between 2 and 4 years old, she made a whole imaginary fantasy friend to help herself deal, then got a chance to make a Wish and made it actually be a thing.

For the past... ten to twelve years, Hijiri was Niko's crutch. Whenever she felt guilty about the incident, which was is just about all the time, she took refuge in the idea of another part of her* who had not killed two of her friends at young age; a second part of herself who didn't have to deal with the guilt, and could be happy.

Hijiri's Niko's emotional crutch made real. So yeah.

*'Niko' means 'two girls'.
 
Okay, got some good work done, what's up with PMAaaaaoooohhhhh my god, what in the world happened here!?

Yeah, I don't have time to read all this. I'm going to stick with "deescalate all around and get by with some help from my friends" until some later date.
 
@Onmur

Some suggestions for tweaks:

[X] Use multitasking as much as possible.
[X] Telepathy Kazumi, Saki, Mami, Sayaka.
-[X] Convey that Niko is not handling herself well, how unfortunate this situation is for both of them, and ask for help stopping it.
-[X] If the Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them that though you acknowledge Hijiri's crimes, you won't be complicit to abuse.
[X] Make yourself heard. Niko needs to back off, get Gem cleansing, and calm the hell down.
-[X] If necessary, make a Grief wall between the Kannas, or ask Mami to separate them.
-[X] To anyone who disagrees: Pointedly explain everything wrong with this picture.
--[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.
[X] Ask Niko to apologize for hitting Hijiri after she was already down.*
[X] After seeing this, we can't in good conscience let them deal with this alone.
-[X] We, or anyone willing to stay calm, will mediate this discussion.
[X] Neither of them understand each other, and both have points they need to get across for a peaceful resolution.
-[X] We want to help everyone.
-[X] To Hijiri: The Memory Device is preventing us from helping her more than it protects her from anyone. Ask her to drop it, and promise she'll be treated fairly.
 
[X] Karnewarrior

Removing the apology isn't great, but also not super fond of the aggressiveness of "won't be party to abuse". The later version emphasizing more on her captivity is better...but i suppose it only gets used if they won't listen.

Anyways, worried about Oriko for realz, and hoooping Kazumi's antimagic is enough to cover (or Niko's builder knowledge) is enough to counter the Memory Device and stop Hijiri if things go screwy even if Kirika's is probably better here. Three rival bandwagons all racing down a narrow cliffside road, good luck!
 
[X] Use multitasking as much as possible.
[X] Telepathy Kazumi, Saki, Mami, Sayaka.
-[X] Convey that no, Niko is not handling herself well, how horrifying this situation is, and ask for help stopping it.
-[X] If the Pleiades don't reign Niko in, tell them that though you acknowledge Hijiri's crimes, you won't be complicit to abuse.

[X] Make yourself heard. Niko needs to back off, get Gem cleansing, and calm the hell down.
-[X] If necessary, make a Grief wall between the Kannas, or ask Mami to separate them.
-[X] If anyone disagrees: Pointedly explain everything wrong with this picture. Don't go overboard.
--[X] Above all, Hijiri is our (collective) captive. We're the ones in control. We can't abuse that.

[X] After seeing this, we can't in good conscience let them deal with this alone.
-[X] We, or anyone willing to stay calm, will mediate this discussion.

[X] Neither of them understand each other, and both have points they need to get across for a peaceful resolution.
-[X] We want to help everyone.
-[X] To Hijiri: The Memory Device is preventing us from helping her more than it protects her from anyone. Ask her to drop it, and promise she'll be treated fairly.

This part I think doesn't quite hit the nail:
Redshirt Army said:
-[X] Convey that Niko is not handling herself well, how unfortunate this situation is for both of them, and ask for help stopping it.
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The first thing we need to do is legitimate our action in everyone's eyes, in order to soften the backlash of meddling in private affairs, since that can make the situation worse.

When I put 'convey how horrifying this situation is', I mean to let our feelings show, in a 'this is fucked up how can you not try to help' way. Saying it's 'unfortunate'... doesn't do much? Is too mild?
 
Going to
[X]Null
For the night, since I'm busy in the morning; I'm satisfied with the direction vote development's heading in, more or less, but I'm dead goddamn serious about the Oriko thing. ACT, not react; this whole fracas was a reaction to our decision to 'trust' rather than 'trust, but verify'.
 
Godwinson said:
As someone who has also done security work, standing by while someone beats on someone else isn't fucking acceptable. If you've detained someone and just stood by as they were assaulted, then you're fucked up.
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And I was the first person here to point out that hitting a prisoner was unacceptable, remember? Literally nobody is suggesting that we let this continue. People are trying to find ways to stop this that will calm things down instead of making them worse by starting another yelling match or an all-out brawl with the Pleiades.


Vebyast said:
"Calm" won't work, not with the thread bleeding over with totally justified anger.
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That anger only needs to show through if we choose to allow it to. We can choose to demonstrate self-control instead. There have been many times that I faced somebody that I found infuriating and despicable, and just smiled and said, "Have a nice day, sir/ma'am," because letting anger show would be counterproductive.
 
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